[NoOne]

I've been researching Line Arrays for a while and have decided to go with one to replace my current Definitive Technology 7002's.

Reading on and off for the past few months.  Built a set of speakers to give it a shot, budgeted things out and am finally ready to make the plunge.

I got incredibly lucky in finding out that I can get the cabinets made, for material.  Cabinet shop a buddy knows the owner and can make them for me out of plans.

I've talked to Rick Craig, Danny, and a few others and they all have been very helpful, answered my questions but the one big problem with Line Array's is demoing them.

I'm sure they all sound fantastic but which one will really be the one my ear likes the best.

I was looking at the LS9's, Rick mentioned a kit he has that was better than the Linus and approaching some of his better stuff.

For the time being I will be driving these simply with a Yamaha RXV2600.  I will be using another set of stereo DIY subs(for another thread)...mostly listen to music but I do enjoy surround music and eventually I'd like have array's around the room.

Its a hard choice to make and its a singlular choice.  There is the investment, the difficulty in resale, etc...

Any suggestions on how to go about picking something?

The room they will play in is 20x20x25 and very open beyond that space into a foyer, open air staircase with every ceiling you can view into those areas at 20ft.

Now that I'm getting down to actually making a purchase the choices get harder.  At the start it was easier since I was looking at buying a concept but now its time to drop some money and frankly I'm not sure how to approach it.

I do know an Array is what I want.  Based on previous conversations with the above and my complaints about my room, current DT speakers, and my goals an array is my answer according to everyone.

Thanks

[rosconey]

if anyone has the knowledge its rick and danny-

i like ricks ear-he did a pair of speakers for me a few years back that i cant find a reason to replace-

havent heard any of danny's stuff

[jonwb]

For the time being I will be driving these simply with a Yamaha RXV2600. ...

You think you need serious help now, wait until you try and get decent sound out of your line arrays w/ this reciever!    

Kidding aside I built a set of Danny's Alpha LS speakers a couple years ago (stories of the experience are in the AC archives).  I have a Yamaha RX-V1000 that I never considered using.  Among others, I tried powering my Alphas w/ a set of IRD MB-100's (100watt mono's).  Nice amps by most accounts, but they simply did not supply the sort of current needed to drive the number of transducers in these speakers (IMHO).  

Sure line arrays are effiecient overall.  They'll play loud w/ modest number of watts.  But they won't have much bass punch.  In fact they'll probably sound a bit anemic (mine did).  

So, I think you're desire to build a set of line arrays will ultimately make you a happy guy.  Don't expect to be too happy until you get a real amp (or amps).  You mentioned that you have a couple subs.  Maybe employing those will help hold you over until your budget is replentished enough to go amp shopping.

As far as whose speaks to buy... my experience is w/ Mr. Richie.  He has provided me w/ exceptional customer support.  I know he's a busy guy, but he always finds the time to answer technical questions quickly and thorougly.  He's also easy to reach on the phone.  Oh yeah... and I'm very happy w/ how my Alpha's sound.  Assuming LS-9's are an upgrade, they will be impressive speakers indeed.

Best of Luck!

[NoOne]

Thanks...Rick did say my RX would do fine to drive the array he was speaking to me about.

Explain to me what the problem is going to be with the RX?

How do these amps tie into HT?

This is the eventual plan.  Larger array for the front, smaller/lighter arrays for the rear and a horizontal array for the center.

Plus the subs.  Since I don't have to spend money on the cabinets the subs will come along with the arrays.

I do not want to get away from the RX.  It does my HDMI switching, supports 6 channel analog and plenty of other things that pushed me to purchase this unit.

I've tried doing some reading on amps but it seems to be its own voodoo.

[jonwb]

Thanks...Rick did say my RX would do fine to drive the array he was speaking to me about.

Explain to me what the problem is going to be with the RX?

Don't get me wrong, I've always liked the Yamaha A/V recievers.  The unit you have is very nice (my Dad has the RX-V2500).  I've been very happy w/ my RX-V1000.  However, the speakers you are looking to build (beit line arrays from Danny or Rick) will basically sound every bit as good as the equipment that is upstream from them; and the amplifier in the Yamaha is not in the same league as any of these speakers.  Like I said, they will play plenty loud, they just won't have any real control over all those woofers.

You may want to read an old thread I had where I discussed some different amps w/ my Alphas:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=14628&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

How do these amps tie into HT?

Its really simple, I have a pair of mono amps (Audire Noble II's).  I hook them up to the "Main R/L" pre-outs on the back of my reciever (you have pre-outs too).  The speakers are then hooked right up to the outputs of the amps.  For movies you can adjust the level settings as needed on the reciever.  In your case you'd just run the automatic setup routine on your Yamaha using the mic (setting all the levels for you).  Its really not much different from using the amp internal to the reciever, only you have to remember to turn on the amp when you want to hear sound from your speaks.

I do not want to get away from the RX.  It does my HDMI switching, supports 6  ...

No need, basically the Yamaha would be your preamp.  Frankly it works pretty well as a pre and using the Yamaha as the pre keeps things simple.    I still use the other channels of my Yamaha to power my center and rear surround speaks.

I've tried doing some reading on amps but it seems to be its own voodoo.

Yeah, its hard to cut through the marketing mumbo jumbo and all the opinions.  Best scenario would be to build the speakers, then see if someone nearby (where are you from BTW?) can bring over their amp to try.  That'd give you a taste of what you can expect from an external amp.  What to actually buy will of course depend on your budget and expectations, but you can get lots of good tips and advice here on AC.

Jon

[jholtz]

I've been researching Line Arrays for a while and have decided to go with one to replace my current Definitive Technology 7002's.

Reading on and off for the past few months.  Built a set of speakers to give it a shot, budgeted things out and am finally ready to make the plunge.

I got incredibly lucky in finding out that I can get the cabinets made, for material.  Cabinet shop a buddy knows the owner and can make them for me out of plans.

I've talked to Rick Craig, Danny, and a few others and they a ...

I've had my Omegarrays for about two years now and am even more pleased today that when I first built them. The RS8's Rick has suggested will have excellent bass. A sub will still be required for the lowest octave but you'll be amazed at how clean and tight the mid bass is with an array using these drivers. I've built a couple different speakers with the RS drivers and they are exceptional. The Fountek ribbons are superb.

I don't know if you're anywhere near the Midwest but I'd be happy to arrange a listening session if you have an interest in listening to an example of Ricks work before buying. You won't be disappointed. The sound is superb and Rick is a great guy to do business with.  

Jim

[warnerwh]

I would hope that you asked Ric and Danny if there's anyone near you where you can hear their speakers.  I've never heard a line array but am intrigued by them and nearly built a pair myself.  This after reading glowing user reviews of Ric's speakers, and I do mean glowing.

Whichever one you choose some room correction is highly recommended. If possible room treatment but at minimum electronic dsp.  You'll be spending alot of money on your system it sounds like and I can assure you that taking care of your acoustics one way or another should be at the top of your priority list.  A world class sound system will only sound world class with good acoustics. Bad acoustics can ruin it.

Best of luck with this project. A room full of line arrays for HT would be killer.

[NoOne]

For reference I am in Green Oak Michigan, about 15 miles north of Ann Arbor.

The room is part of the reason I was looking at arrays.  I sent Rick pictues of the room and he suggested a setup from there.

My big problem, as you can see, if with the bipolar setup.  An array should fill the room better and be more even.

Here are the pics, there is some funky reflection in the first pic from the skylights.

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The wife has no problem with the speakers at all, room treatments...we'll see  

The TV is going too, just waiting for my new Samsung 61" 1080p DLP to show up to replace the 60" Wega LCD.

[Marbles]

You live close enough to go see Jim Salk, who lives on the North side of Detroit, and you SHOULD go to listen to the Ridge Street Audio Sasson's at Eric Hider's place, he is also in the North burbs of Detroit.

The Sasson's do imaging like NO other speaker I've ever heard.  They do imaging like it is a high def TV...you can see the players..it's uncanny.

I know, you don't need cabinets....you want Line array's etc...

You can compare Eric's Epiphany 21/20 Line Array's..the nicest Line Array's that Danny has so far designed and released to the public,( rumor has it he has designed a nicer LA but it is not quite ready for the public yet) to his Sasson's.

Eric listens to the Sasson's on a daily basis now because they can do things that the Epiphanies simply can't.

I have PM'd you Eric Hiders email addy, and Jim Salk's web site.

Jim also has a forum here.

[jholtz]

For reference I am in Green Oak Michigan, about 15 miles north of Ann Arbor.

The room is part of the reason I was looking at arrays.  I sent Rick pictues of the room and he suggested a setup from there.

My big problem, as you can see, if with the bipolar setup.  An array should fill the room better and be more even.

Here are the pics, there is some funky reflection in the first pic from the skylights.

http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i65.photobucket.com/ ...

As Marbles pointed out, there are many choices in quality speakers. Jim Salk, Jim's designer Dennis Murphy and Rick Craig are all friends of mine. Jim's cabinets are the finest I've ever seen. I've built over a dozen speakers designed by both Rick and Dennis. Everyone has been outstanding in their class. I've heard some of Danny's designs but not his arrays so I won't comment on them. He has many satisfied customers so I have no doubt he does fine work.

The reason I chose to build Ricks arrays were because they are designed on the principals laid out by Dr. Jim Griffin who I have tremendous respect for. Ricks arrays are the result of solid physics and countless hours of painstaking development. They're done right, no question about it. I also wanted a true ribbon rather than a planar tweeter. Since the Omegarrays were a custom design, I was able to select the woofer that exactly fit my listening tastes and budget. Rick guided me with his extensive expertise so that the end result is quite amazing.

I've had many people come long distances to listen to them. I'll not speak for anyone but I think the consensus was simply, WOW! Even an Orion owner was enthralled with them.  

What this all really comes down to, is what speaker design is going to work best for you. The differences between point source and line source speakers are not subtle. Nearfield listening is something that simply has to be experienced. The detail and dynamics of a line array are what point source speakers wish they could achieve. Awesome! As you upgrade your electronics, the sound just keeps getting better and better. The RS8's Rick has described are the best array I can think of without spending obscene amounts of money and are what I would build if I were selecting an array today. Make no mistake, the drivers are world class and put many, many others to shame.

I see your home is a fair distance from where I live in Des Moines, Iowa. Rick probably has a customer closer than I to you but the offer stands if you'd like to make the trip for a listening session to central Iowa.

Regardless, the controlled dispersion, nearfield listening and awesome dynamics among the other many virtues of line arrays would be a great match for your room. Beautiful house, BTW.  

Best regards,

Jim

[NoOne]

Thanks for everyones replies.  I'll be contacting the people you mentioned.

I didn't realize Jim Salk was here in Michigan.  

Rick's price was certaintly right and I've heard alot of good things.  GR I was looking at and waiting for the LS-9.

Danny was nice enough to send me the plans so I could get some cabinet pricing done but now thats a moot point.

I'd like to audition them all and see what comes of it.  

How far into Iowa are you?  We'll be down in Indy for the Forumla 1 race and I don't believe its too far.  Might be able to take a quick side trip if you wouldn't mind.

I'd really like to hear a variety.

Its amazing how well kept a secret array's are.  My boss, who unfortunetly passed away a month ago, was HUGE into audio.  He had obscene amounts of money tied up in 4 systems but had never even mentioned arrays.  

Granted with the room they take up they may not be for everyone but for what I am expecting performance/dollar wise you can put up with another piece of furniture.

[jholtz]

Thanks for everyones replies.  I'll be contacting the people you mentioned.

I didn't realize Jim Salk was here in Michigan.  

Rick's price was certaintly right and I've heard alot of good things.  GR I was looking at and waiting for the LS-9.

Danny was nice enough to send me the plans so I could get some cabinet pricing done but now thats a moot point.

I'd like to audition them all and see what comes of it.  

How far into Iowa are you?  We'll be down in Indy for the Forumla 1 race and I don't ...

I just saw that Rick is going on tour this summer and coming to your home. It doesn't get any better than that!   I'm about 8 hours west of Indianapolis so it is quite a drive and you can't beat Rick's offer. I predict that the RS8's will simply blow you away.

Enjoy!

Jim

[Daemonicus]

The TV is going too, just waiting for my new Samsung 61" 1080p DLP to show up to replace the 60" Wega LCD.

Some people have too much money. Does anything actually use 1080p yet? I don't think so.

[NoOne]

No one uses 1080p for the most part, however most HD broadcasts, including HD DVD are in 1920x1080 res and last I checked no one made a 1080i TV with that resolution.  Regardless of if the information is in a 1080p format it is at least shown in its native resolution which greatly improves the picture quality.  Right now if you don't have a 1080p TV your watching everything downrezzed to 1368x768.

If you've ever seen the Samsung 1080p DLP there is nothing even close to it in picture quality.  I've compared it side by side, with real 1080p feeds to the Sony SXRD.  The SXRD looks like a better version of my current TV.  The DLP is in another league all together.  I never thought DLP was superior to LCD or Plasma until I saw the 07 Samsungs, even their last year 1080p model was just so so.

The Samsung is also smaller dimensionally with a smaller bezel, is black which matches the room better and doesn't have the speakers on the sides that makes the Sony so overly large.

Plus I got a killer deal on my Sony 2 years ago, $2,700 for the 60" due to a store mistake.  Now I have a buddy who will sell me the DLP near cost and have a buyer for my LCD at an excellent price.

This DLP upgrade will cost me a whopping $400, I get a bigger TV with better picture quality, a unit now under warranty again with a fresh bulb, better asthetics and a picture that even amazed the wife.

That $400 is a break even point from the number I paid 2 years ago, not what its going to cost me today, taking into depreciation on the unit, what some people spend on extended warranties which I did not get you could say this is a free upgrade.

That sounds like more common sense than anything else.  

Your in the wrong forum if you think people have too much money.  What I plan on spending on my entire setup is probably less than what somepeople have in their amps.  

You better rubber stamp your statement, you'll be using it al aweful lot  

[NoOne]

I tend to be blessed with the whole Right Place at the Right Time thing, see above  

I've PM'd Rick and we're going to work out the details so it will be nice to actually demo them in the house and if anything needs to be changed I'm sure Rick will be able to make suggestions based on my room.

Can't wait.s