[Chuck]

Greetings all.

I am re-thinking my ongoing love-hate relationship with subwoofers and am seeking opinions.

I love deep powerful bass when it is judiciously implemented.

I hate BIG ugly boxes and one-noted, sloppy or fuzzy bass.  I especially hate trying to hide the ugly box in a corner and dialing the crossover all the way down hoping that those lowest bass frequencies are non-directional and pretending that I cannot tell that the bass is coming from a separate box in the corner...blah blah...all the stuff you guys hate about subs too.

Anyway, I have nearly convinced myself that if I go with stereo subs and use them for speaker stands, that they will be much easier to blend with my monitors and create a cohesive stereo image and better all around bass.  I have read many posts here extolling the virtues of stereo subs.

So I decided that if I could find subs that were small enough so as not to be so visibly obtrusive, I might try stereo subs.

I have found Bullet UFW-10 and ULW-10 subwoofers (sold on AV123).  They look promising.  The ULW is $100 cheaper but has a 350 watt amp instead of the 500 watt amp of the UFW.  I was wondering what that difference is likely to translate to as far as sound goes.  I have a medium smallish room and don't need huge output.  I would appreciate any opinions on these subs if you have had the opportunity to hear them.

I was also curious if anyone compared them to the ACI Force.  The force is rated down to 20 hertz but it is bigger...about as big as I would want in my already crowded room.

I am guessing the ACI would be more articulate but that is based only on reviews I have read.  I wonder if any of you guys have heard both the ACI Force and Bullet UFW or ULW subs and would be good enough to post your opinions.

I am currently using VMPS 626 ribbon monitors (42 hertz low end) in a two-channel system.  I use the system for about 40% movies and 60% music.

I really like the VMPS 626's and for most music don't even miss a sub.  I figure if the Bullet subs are just mediocre, I can use them for movies and turn them off when listening to music.

And finally, I am thinking that a modest sized floorstanding speaker is no more visually imposing than two large monitors sitting on subwoofers, even small subwoofers, so for you "I will never own a subwoofer" crowd...what are good floorstanding speakers with solid bass down to 32 hertz?  

I had a pair of Lorelei's but they did not work well in my acoustic environment...bass was too fuzzy and also I couldn't get good imaging.

Any other (small to mid sized) floorstanders I should be researching?  Preferably less than $5k.

Thanks.

[CJ Paul]

What you want is a low Q design (or critically damped).  This can be done most effectively with a sealed sub or an infinite baffle if you have the means to do one.  I've lived with 4 box/tube subs and then built an infinite baffle sub and it is the most incredible, least compromising bass you can possibly get.

[TomS]

I have a pair of ACI Titan II's with Merlin TSM-MX's and like the combination very much for both HT and music.  The Titans are surprisingly quick and do their best not to screw up the musicality of the Merlins.  It requires a lot of tuning and experimentation to get there though.  Unless you have something like a TacT 2.2x it's pretty tough to do by ear and takes time and a lot of patience to get it right.  Obviously you've had some difficulty with bass in your room, so you may have to look at DSP and/or treatments in any case.  It sounds like the Titans are probably bigger than you'd want though.  

There are, of course, many, many good options in floorstanders at the $5k level.  Based on what you said, though, I'd certainly give the Reimers a listen, especially in terms of value.  I have the monster Teton GS and there is no question they will produce bass that is much better integrated than most sub/sat situations (without DSP).  I've heard Gregg Straley's smaller Reimer Wind River GS's (though no doubt modified and tweaked to the max) and, using his cables and Superphon gear, these had extraordinarily fast, tight, and well integrated bass for their modest size.  This without any significant room treatments.  I used the Teton GS's with no center on HT for awhile and loved them for that use.  I never once thought I needed a sub for either movies or music.

If you're willing to wait, then no question, many of the custom builders on AC such as Salk HT3's are also terrific, using the TC Sounds woofer.  

Good luck!

[gitarretyp]

I have found Bullet UFW-10 and ULW-10 subwoofers (sold on AV123). They look promising. The ULW is $100 cheaper but has a 350 watt amp instead of the 500 watt amp of the UFW. I was wondering what that difference is likely to translate to as far as sound goes. I have a medium smallish room and don't need huge output. I would appreciate any opinions on these subs if you have had the opportunity to hear them.

I think you mean rocket u*w-10 subs. I have a pair of the ulw-10s and am quite happy with them. They replaced a HSU STF-2, and they are much better performers (alone or with both operating). The rockets are much more musical (less one note, tighter, faster bass) and extend to ~25Hz flat in my room. The rockets also have built-in eq functions. The only place the hsu was noticably better was max output level.

The 350 vs 500 watts won't make much difference at normal listening levels in your mediumish sized room. The only differences between the two are finish (the ufw has a premium finish), the amp power, and the form of eq each has (the ulw has an auto eq with mic, and the ufw has a manual parametric eq).

**Shameless self-promotion**
Now with all of that, i will be selling my pair of rockets soon (if you have any interest, pm me ). They'll be replaced by a pair of the gr research subs, either stand-alone or integral in a pair of speakers i'm looking at. If you can DIY, the gr subs can be built for a very reasonable price.

[Jampot]

Would something like this do the trick -

http://www.stirlingbroadcast.net/ls3-5a%20NEW2.html

Scroll down to AB 1 Bass radiators.

They may not go low enough for you...

A crummy pair went last week on eBay.com

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rogers-AB-1-Subwoofer-Stands-for-the-LS3-5A-Speaker_W0QQitemZ5854462734QQcategoryZ3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Good hunting!

Jim

[jackman]

I would suggest Bamberglab.com Series 5's.  Phil Bamberg has achieved subwoofer integration that is better than any speaker I have ever heard.  I don't know the dimensions of your 626's but my MTM Seas Excel monitors and Peerless XLS subwoofer stands integrate perfectly.  Bass is powerful and articulate, and very musical.  They also look very cool.  

For under $5K, you could get a very nice BESL system and have some money to spare.  My system (in the picture) is active but you could choose a passive setup.  Phil Bamberg is a rare talent and one of the best professional designers you will find.  If you are in Chicago, give me a call.  You are welcome to hear my system.  I'd also check with Phil to see if these will work with your speakers.  He may have a pair in black finish.

Here is the link:  

http://www.bamberglab.com

[Chuck]

Thanks guys...

CJPaul - The Rockets are sealed and I am told sealed is easier to integrate.  I am not very technical and will have to do some more reading to see if they are low Q etc.

TomS - The Titans are definitely too big.  I know they are well regarded but I would need a much bigger space to consider them.  The Force is about as big as I would want.   I will need to research the others you mentioned...they are new to me.

gitarretyp - Yep, I meant "Rockets"     Thanks for clarifying.  I am still in the research phase but since you brought it up -  what finish are yours?   What will you be asking?

Jampot - you got me!  I will have to do some more research.  So many manufacturers out there.  I thought I knew all of them but you and TomS have proven I still have homework to do.

Jackman - I am totally drooling over those pics - very nice - I think even my wife would like those.  I just came across BESL's site last night and learned they are also Local to me.  Cool!  Road trip!!

I haven't heard from anybody trying to talk me out of subs yet though.  I am still very much torn.  I like what I have read about Usher floorstanding speakers if anybody has any experience with them and can tell me what they think of their bass response.

[MaxCast]

Have you taken any measurements of the FR of you listening positions with a sub the the room?  You might be sitting in a big mode where any sub will sound boomy.
A Beringer xo with a sub or two should get you a smooth lower end.

[Chuck]

I haven't taken any measurements (I don't have the equipment or know how).  That is one reason floorstanding speakers are attractive to me...less complicated.

I guess the biggest reason I am torn is because I really enjoy the 626 monitors and won't give them up easily, even though the idea of nearly full range floorstanders appeals to me in general more than trying to integrate subs with monitors.

The natural choice of course is the RM30 (VMPS' smallest floorstanding model).  I think the version with the 10" woofer has solid output down to 32 Hz if I remember right.  Though it is narrow and not very tall, it is awkwardly deep and I don't think I can properly place them with the other furniture I have in the room.

That is my problem with most of the appealing floorstanders I have researched...the ones with reach down into the low 30's or lower are usually pretty big.

BTW - TomS - In re-reading your post I just realized that the speakers you mentioned that I hadn't heard of were floorstanding speakers, not subs.  That's what I get for trying to multi-task and rushing too much.  I will research them.  Thanks again.

Back to room measurements...I know acoustics are very important but one reason I haven't been motivated to study acoustics and take room measurements is that I know there is very little I can get away with when it comes to acoustic treatments.  Bass traps are definitely out as well as anything that clashes with the decor or is too obtrusive.  That is just one of my practical limitations unfortunately.  I don't have a dedicated audio room.

Sorry if I am being too difficult or asking the impossible...I realize there will always be trade-offs.  I am just trying to get as close as I can to audio nirvana within my practical limits.

Thanks again for your advice and comments.  Keep 'em coming.

[gitarretyp]

I haven't heard from anybody trying to talk me out of subs yet though. I am still very much torn. I like what I have read about Usher floorstanding speakers if anybody has any experience with them and can tell me what they think of their bass response.

I have a pair of the usher cp-6311s. I haven't heard the loreleis but having spoken to those that have had them side by side, the ushers are very similar sonically to the loreleis. If you had trouble with the lors, you'll likely have trouble with the ushers.

My room also has an atrocious bass response. To cure it, i stuffed the ports on my ushers and added an outboard eq for the subs (behringer feedback destroyer). The eq was the best thing i've done for my system, and it cleaned up the bass dramatically. I also tried some room treatments before adding the eq. They helped a little, but no where near the level of the eq.

My advice, since you like the sound of your vmps, would be stick with those, add a sub or two and get an eq of some sort. The feedback destroyer can be purchased on ebay for <$100. You'll need an spl meter also (~$20 at radio shack).

[Chuck]

A lot of people seem to really like what the Behringer can do to fix room problems.  I think I will look more into that before I make any decisions.  I can get away with a Behringer a lot easier than I can get away with room treatments.  

gitarretyp - I got your PM.  Give me a week or so to do some more research.  I may be interested in your offer.

Thanks everybody.

[woodsyi]

Chuck,

Couple of local ACers have Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer graphic EQ in their system to tame bass issue when room treatment was not possible and like it.  It's not as cheap as the feedback destoyer, but I believe it does more.  You can check it out or post a question and I am sure you will get some feedbacks (pun intended).

[CJ Paul]

Well, the SMS does far, far less than a Behringer Feedback Destroyer, but its much easier to use.  I would recomend it over nothing at all if the BFD is too much work.  I would also add that your comment about two full range speakers or two subs placed by the speakers is not easier to intigrate, its much more difficult.  You will create more peaks and nulls with bass coming from multiple locations than if you just had one.  This is well documented.  I think there is a detailed Harman white paper on it that melts your brain to try and read but when you start talking to bass experts in the industry/hobby (i.e. the guys from SVS, Tom Nousaine, etc.) they all agree on this fact.  One calibrated, EQ'd sub (or multiple subs in the SAME location) will be much easier to deal with than many subs at different locations.  This is an acoustic fact.

[woodsyi]

Debate may go on between stereo subs vs. monosub and I don't know any "acoustic fact" that says one is superior to the other.  I happened to go from one to two but that's the way I like it in my room.  Different room, different listener -- who knows?  It may also be easier for Chuck to get two subs and use them as bases for the monitor than trying to find a place for a single sub away from the monitors.

[CJ Paul]

You can never say its a fact that x is better than y because better is subjective.  You can say its an acoustic fact that multiple low frequency sources will excite more room modes and usually exacerbates the summing and cancellation of frequencies that cause ragged bass.  Here is the Harman white paper. http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=1003

Note they dont ever really condem or condone one method over another, but what becomes clear is that multiple subs (especially when measurements and acoustic science is not used to determine placement) is difficult as hell to do.

[ctviggen]

I disagree.  One could take two subs and put them in locations where they would interact less with room modes and get better bass than placing one sub in the worst location -- the corner of a room on the floor.  In that case, two subs are better than one.  I have my two VMPS Largers placed away from the corners (though along the wall -- I might change that) and on Substands to reduce floor-to-ceiling room mode interaction.  The sound appears to be very good, but I won't be able to verify until I fix my QSC amp to get both subs working and get my ETF program to work without 60Hz leaking into the measurement.

Personally, I prefer stereo subs as I can easily zero in on a single sub.  I can't stand that.

[Marbles]

If you can easily zero in on one sub, then that sub is playing too high (Frequency).  While you may be crossing it at say 80HZ, it still may be playing much higher than that as the XO is not a brick wall filter.

Best of luck with your QSC problems.  I just saw a Crown K2 on Agon for $750 that would probably be better and does not have a fan.

[woodsyi]

I run my two with one k2 and works fine.

[JoshK]

I got a newish Crown K1 (no fan) for ~$600 and I've seen a number more on ebay.  The $99 Behr Feedback Destroyer will do all the EQ'ing you'll need and then some which is much better than what is built in on even the best of plate amps.  

Bob,  I don't get your retort to CJ.  It seems you stated the obvious but not really a rebutal to CJ's point.  If you put two subs in ideal locations it may very well be better than one sub is a horrible location.  But putting one sub in one of those better locations might very well be easier to obtain better in room response than two subs as CJ has noted.

I have seen recently some more work on the subject of localizeability of low frequencies and it seems that low freqs can be localizeable more than what was previously accepted but only some of the time and under certain conditions.  If I come across the study, I'll have to post the link.  

Even if you believe that freqs below 80 can't be localized, there are still some affects that will make a sub crossed below 80hz localizeable.  As Marbles said, if the xo slope is too shallow then the sub is still playing audible (although attenuated) freqs above 80hz.  If you have any vibrations or resonance above 80hz, either from the box or elsewhere it could be localized.   Then also consider than if the sub is distorting a lot that upper harmonics might be well above 80hz (although down relative to the fundamental may still me loud enough to be audible).

[csero]

It is not only the issue of localizeability but the inportance of wide base distance stereo bass - or lateral differences in bass - in ambience perception. There is a document on the filmaker.com site.

An interesting experiment  is to put 2 subs passed high >150 Hz to the two sides of the listerer. Also very educational when you have 3ways with LF XO in the 400-700 Hz range. Try disconnecting the mid-tweeters, turn the main speakers facing each other and sit between them. Very different image from the usual stereo stuff (w/o mid-highs of course).