[crooner]

Hi fellas,

I have a SB3 and use a dedicated USB 2.0 300 GB hard drive as storage for my audio files. I would like to provide some means to preserve the data in case of a crash.

Any recommendations on implementing a RAID system with my present drive? I can add an internal HD to my computer and use it along with the USB, if possible.

Thanks in advance!

crooner

[mgalusha]

Probably the easiest and nearly the least expensive solution would be to get another external drive of equal or greater size and use software to mirror the disk. I've used a small program called Mirror Folder - http://www.techsoftpl.com/backup for similar purposes and it works very well and is completely transparent to the user. Set it up and forget about it.

Much easier than RAID and almost the same features but with the added benefit that by default, files deleted on the source won't be deleted on the destination as they would with a true RAID configuration.

mike

[boead]

Yeah, that’s good advise.

I use RAID-1 with two Maxtor 300GB SATA2 drives with Native Command Queuing (NCQ) with a Promise controller. It’s VERY fast and gives me the redundant data protection I want.
If a drive fails (and trust me, they do all the time!), you have a redundant copy to run on till you replace the defective drive. It won’t protect your data from corruption or deletion but it will keep your system intact and keep your downtime to a minimum.

I also have a third 300GB drive in a USB2 box for backups. It may seem overly redundant but 300GB is a lot of data and would take a long time to replace what’s there. I have currently 98GB and almost 16,000 tracks of music alone then there are pictures (11.8GB, 42,700 files. Ok so 14,000 or so are Playboy playmates but the rest are family), video and games. Backing up this data takes hours so having a redundant RAID-1 is beneficial.

[crooner]

Thanks guys, I think I am going to go with the Mirror Folder idea. BTW, I bought a 300 GB drive because it was cheap but that's indeed a lot of capacity. I am currently using around 60 gigs and only a few CDs left to rip!

[Inscrutable]

Seems like boead's solution is maximum protection, but if you were going to do either a RAID or external/backup, would you choose the latter?  Seems that risk of corruption is as great a concern as a drive failure, isn't it?  And a RAID/mirror will write the corrupted file to both discs, yes?

[boead]

Seems like boead's solution is maximum protection, but if you were going to do either a RAID or external/backup, would you choose the latter?  Seems that risk of corruption is as great a concern as a drive failure, isn't it?  And a RAID/mirror will write the corrupted file to both discs, yes?

Not really.

If your Windows OS gets corrupt then your going to need to reinstall anyway so either isn’t going to help.

Your hard data (music, video, personal files) isn’t’ likely to get corrupt.

If your somewhat computer challenged and sporadically delete things without realizing it then RAID isn’t going to help but then again, you probably wont be able to do a backup either.

My first choice of action is RAID mirror, it’s a duplicate copy of ALL my data on real-time basis. If your drive is large enough (or at least you have enough free space to spare) you should do data backups with Microsoft Windows built-in backup of important (non-media) files so you at least have a second copy of some of your stuff. If safe on the RAID array since the array is two drives.

[skrivis]

Not really.

If your Windows OS gets corrupt then your going to need to reinstall anyway so either isn’t going to help.

Your hard data (music, video, personal files) isn’t’ likely to get corrupt.

If your somewhat computer challenged and sporadically delete things without realizing it then RAID isn’t going to help but then again, you probably wont be able to do a backup either.

My first choice of action is RAID mirror, it’s a duplicate copy of ALL my data on real-time basis. If your drive is la ...

You should be doing backups anyway. The money and time you spend on it is small compared with what you'll face in a major disaster.

RAID 1 employs, at a minimum, 2 drives. If you have 300 GB of files, you'll need the same amount of space on the second mirror drive.

If it's done via software, there can be a performance hit, although it's usually minor in typical desktop use.

A HD failure is easy to take care of. You replace the failed drive and rebuild the mirror.

The Mirrorfolder solution someone mentioned sounds like it just copies files over to the other drive. It's operating at a file level, rather than filesystem level. It's probably slower than true RAID 1.

So why do I recommend backups? Because RAID is only as good as the HD controller and drivers. It's not impossible for something to go wrong and corrupt the filesystem itself. Since you're mirroring the filesystem, the mirror disk gets toasted too. It's unlikely you'll ever see this, but it can happen.

RAID is best for servers, where you need to get back up and running quickly. I would usually mirror the system drives and use another RAID level for the data drives, depending upon the usage. If one drive in the mirrored pair fails, you break the mirror and you're ready to go. You can install the new replacement drive at the same time, or schedule it for off hours.

For desktop use, I feel backups are better. The main thing is to never lose your data. You don't normally need to make an instant recovery.

Yes, a lot of people just mirror the drive and rely on that. Just remember that a failure can still wipe you out. (And recovering data from a trashed filesystem of HD can be pretty ugly.)

Bite the bullet and start doing scheduled backups.

[mcgsxr]

I agree - I am no authority, but it seems to me that weekly or montly backups for a home PC is simple, cost effective, and straightforward.

I plug in my external 200GB USB drive, copy over the data drive, and am done.  Unplug, return to basement (should likely be stored at the office, so that it is offsite, but I honestly figure that if I have a fire, the 200GB of FLAC files is likely down low on my list...).

I am just looking to avoid all that burning again!

Sure, for others with different req's, and lower tolerances for failure, that RAID thing might work, but to me, it sounds like an industrial solution, to a residential concern...

[skrivis]

I agree - I am no authority, but it seems to me that weekly or montly backups for a home PC is simple, cost effective, and straightforward.

I plug in my external 200GB USB drive, copy over the data drive, and am done.  Unplug, return to basement (should likely be stored at the office, so that it is offsite, but I honestly figure that if I have a fire, the 200GB of FLAC files is likely down low on my list...).

I am just looking to avoid all that burning again!

Sure, for others with different req's,  ...

Well.... I was really talking about backup to tape or optical media. I backup to tape using DLT (80 GB per tape), and also backup to DVD for some things.

Your approach is similar to what that Filefolder software does. But at least you're doing _something_. Many people just don't bother and then they learn their lesson too late.

RAID 1 is not very difficult to do with many modern computers. They're building the RAID controller into motherboards for hardware RAID, and Windows has software RAID included (I don't think it's in all versions though???), and Linux has very good software RAID too. You can also buy a cheap RAID controller.

All you need to do is install another HD and configure the RAID. I think you can even get some Dell computers with RAID 1 out of the box.

I agree that RAID 1 is not as easy as plugging in a USB HD. But it's not that hard either. One big advantage is that it's continuous. All of your data will be current, so you shouldn't lose any work.

[Inscrutable]

Yes, this is what I was getting at.  I'm as concerned with problems and corruption of system as data, and didn't see that RAID is any help (both drives get corrupted).  Is there a relatively affordable external USB tape backup, so I could use it on multiple computers?  And if I am using that, then is there any need for RAID or redundant drives of any kind? (doesn't seem so).  Is it possible to keep all my system and program/app files on one (smaller) HDD and all the actual music/data files on a second larger HDD?  Does the slimserver software reside on the master/boot drive, or on the same drive with the data files (assume the latter)?

[skrivis]

Yes, this is what I was getting at.  I'm as concerned with problems and corruption of system as data, and didn't see that RAID is any help (both drives get corrupted).  Is there a relatively affordable external USB tape backup, so I could use it on multiple computers?  And if I am using that, then is there any need for RAID or redundant drives of any kind? (doesn't seem so).  Is it possible to keep all my system and program/app files on one (smaller) HDD and all the actual music/data files on a second large ...

First of all, there's nothing that will protect you 100%. Tapes get goofed up too, and you could find that the data you desperately need is on a tape that turns out to be bad.

The good thing about tape is that it tends to be less expensive than the other options, so you can afford to keep a number of sets of data around, from newest to old. (I have a lot of tapes, so I recycle them about every 4 months.)

I just looked on froogle and there are quite a few available. It looks like the Travan drives might be the least expensive for the drive itself.

Tapes are usually specified with 2 capacities, native and compressed. So a Travan 40 is actually 20 GB native (uncompressed) and 40 GB compressed. Files like mp3 and mpg are already compressed, so the tape will hold a lot closer to 20 GB. With a more normal mix of files, you get closer to 40 GB.

Don't forget to look at the cost of tapes. Some drives might be cheaper initially, but have very expensive tapes.

DAT drives wear out more quickly than some of the others, and the drive itself is pretty complex and the parts are tiny. You'd almost need a watchmaker to service them.

There are a variety of formats that use a 1/4" streaming tape that's descended from one known as QIC (I think it stands for quarter inch cartridge). Travan is one of these and Tandberg SLR is another. All of the precision for tape alignment is built into the cartridge, so the tapes tend to be more expensive. On the other hand, the drives are pretty simple, so they don't break very often. Onstream uses a similar cartridge too, and they seem to be less expensive than Travan. I found a couple selling for about $165.

I didn't stop to think that you'd be using USB. I have SCSI adapters in all of my machines. I use a tape backup package that backs up across the net, so I never have to move the drive around. I can just start it going and it will backup all of my computers. I just have to change tapes, and they're 40/80 GB, so it isn't too bad.

With USB, it might be slower to do the backup. That could be unworkable for backing up music and video since the backup job will take a long time and you'll have to keep feeding it tapes. The good thing is that, if you have backup software that will do differential backups, you'll only have to backup a file once and then it leaves it alone if it doesn't change. So you might find that the initial backup takes a lot of tapes and then with subsequent backups several fit on a tape.


Yes, it is possible to have a smaller hard drive with the os and your apps on it, and then a larger one for data. A few apps may be less flexible and will want to keep their data on the system drive, but that shouldn't be a problem with music or video apps.

If you're backing up to tape, then there is little reason to do RAID 1, that's true.

I think in your case I might modify my advice a bit. Maybe you could copy your music and video files to a USB HD and keep that in a safe place. Then get one of the smaller tape drives and backup your system and important data (e-mail, documents, etc.) to tape. You'll be able to do system backups weekly or something, and do the copying to USB HD whenever you add files to your collection.

People often tell me I get carried away. I usually get the last laugh when they tell me they have a problem with their computer and I say, "You do have current backups, right?" Viruses and other malware can wreak havoc with your data, so it's not uncommon to see people losing stuff.

I've also seen some of those "cleanup" programs clean up stuff that you didn't want them to.

I work in a Disaster Recovery datacenter, and we're the redundant backup for the main corporate datacenter. Almost everything I administer has to do with backup, so maybe that helps to explain where I'm coming from.

[skrivis]

Does the slimserver software reside on the master/boot drive, or on the same drive with the data files (assume the latter)?

This one I don't know. I haven't even looked at slimserver yet. Perhaps someone else will answer this one.

I would imagine that the slimserver software installs by default onto the system drive. Don't hold me to that though.



My cousin just bought a house in Cary. He said it's where they store all the former Yankees in the Triangle area. His daughter is opening a pub in downtown Raleigh, which is why he moved there from DC.

The company I work for also has its headquarters in Raleigh, so I've been down there a few times.

I had a few guys up from Raleigh last week. It was cold and snowy here, and they were heading back to 80 degree weather. On the other hand, I was down there last August and it was way too hot. I came back to Ohio and t was like 20 degrees cooler (in the 70's) and I just breathed a sigh of relief.

[Inscrutable]

Thanks for all your help Skrivis.  And yes Cary stands for Containment Area for Relocated Yankees (althoug in fairness there are refugees from all parts of the country here).  Actually we just moved into a new house down around holly Springs 9ergo, all the network, distributed audio, listening room, and home theater stuff going on in my head right now.

New pub ... now you're talking!  Bummed when Greenshields burned down and they decided not to rebuild.  And there are a few good ones in DC ... have frequented Murphys in Old Town and the one whose name escapes me near Union Station in the first floor adjacent to the Phoenix Park.  Let me know more about the what/where/when.

And if you get down here again, we have a few fairly active ACers and other forum guys who get together ... love to meet you.

[crooner]

An update fellas:

I've purchased a 300 GB Seagate internal HD from TigerDirect. It was $130 shipped. Much cheaper than another external unit.

Thinking about using the internal as my main drive and the USB unit as the backup.

I'll report back when I get it...