Plunging into Clari-T waters..

JLM · « **Reply #20 on:** 14 May 2005, 12:22 pm »

I've spent considerable time on the Decware forum. Steve Deckert builds rather unique 2 - 12 wpc tube amps and the #1 discussion point is speaker matching with high efficiency always being the first criteria.

So I've heard most of his offerings ($500 - 2500) and IMO the Clari-T does everything better, except perhaps the hyper real (some could argue exagerated) imaging. Bass response/control is where the Clari-T wins hands down. Again IMO most of the SET crowd have simply learned to live without bass and have even forgotten what it's like.

From my experience the most common problem with high efficiency speakers is lack of bass (below say 40 - 60 Hz like the Druids or Omegas), followed closely by distortions (colorations). But lower efficiency speakers lack dynamics, that's the biggest issue I have with my Fostex F200A based MLTL speakers (as DMason states). Also as per Dr. Dan synergy is case by case.

Seems to me, the ideal compromise might be 3 inch drivers in smaller open baffles with a powered sub. But high efficiency at 3 inches doesn't happen easily (is usually proportional to driver size for non-compression cones) and would probably have limited output. Something about 3 inches wouldn't beam until about 12,000 Hz while producing into the 80 Hz range. Let me know if you find such a little beasty. Might even be a ribbon (now that might be interesting!).

Dmason · « **Reply #21 on:** 14 May 2005, 01:31 pm »

This is an interesting question and area. To my thinking, the compression drivers and ribbons might actually be a really good thing for lower powered amps like the ClariT. They are highly sensitive, and contrary to what might be thought, they really dont "need" a horn. That is for directivity, and is associated with commercial/large venue apps where dispersion angles are key. With a big, wide open baffle, one could experience everything they have to offer.

There is a recipe for the pro audio Audax PR170 + AC ribbon on DIY Audio, but to squeeze the magic out of this 100db pairing requires digital XO and active amplification. Ribbons are near magical sounding transducers, but XO circuits suck the life right out of them. Those two could easily and inexpensively be integrated into an open baffle where the baffle could be quite narrow.

JeffB · « **Reply #22 on:** 14 May 2005, 08:41 pm »

I was looking at the manual for my Rat Shack SPL meter. 'C' weighting measures from 32 Hz to 10,000Hz. From that I am assuming that the sensitivity rating of any speaker that doesn't produce down to 32Hz is essentially limited. The Omega Super 3s are 93db(4.5" driver, 58Hz). The Omega 8 Grande are 96db(8" driver, 46Hz). The Zu Druids are 101db(10" driver, 35Hz). The respective surface area of these drivers are: 16 , 50, 79 sq. inches.

So sensitivity does not really tell you much about the speakers dynamics within the range of frequencies for which it is optimized. 'A' weighting might really be more interesting. 'A' weighting measures from 500Hz to 10,000Hz. Manufactures rarely give this number. 'A' weighting might be really interesting if you were going to augment with a subwoofer.

I think the sensitivity numbers are important for flea powered amplifiers, because I think controlled bass output really requires a lot of power. Perhaps you can get quality bass with a few watts with a massive horn, but to get controlled bass out of most ordinary speakers requires power. If you suck up what little power you have in a cross-over there is just nothing left to control the cone. I think this would result in slow, woolly bass output.

So high sensitivity numbers allow flea powered amplifiers to have better controlled bass. Also, since to get the high sensitivity numbers requires light cones and strong magnets, better dynamics are also present.

Dmason · « **Reply #23 on:** 14 May 2005, 10:19 pm »

JeffB

This is exactly the point. If god is in the details, then she exists in the first watt of output. The rest is the dynamics. Once ears become accustomed to XO-less speakers, multi driver arrangements sound just plain broken. IF you can keep the XO away from ~100-8000, or ~200-2800 it makes an important difference.

SA^2/SPL isnt the whole story but WRT sensitivity, a function of the amount of air being excited. Bigger SA^2 means bigger sensitvity so far as that goes, and therefore means bigger dynamic headroom, the "Nitrogen" in the Musical air.

The First Watt of the ClariT is very, very good. Exceedingly good. It therefore makes sense to preserve it as much as possible. It is simply too good a sound to mess with passive contouring. When you can apply contouring, RTA, EQ in the digital domain, it gets really special. As always, YMMV.

JLM · « **Reply #24 on:** 14 May 2005, 10:43 pm »

Dan,

Do you have a link to this pro audio speaker and/or any ideas of how to design an O.B. with these drivers?

Dmason · « **Reply #25 on:** 14 May 2005, 11:15 pm »

It is a recently discontinued pro audio driver, the PR170 something.

www.madisound.com under Audax, unde Pro. They bought up all the remaining stock. Also see the spex at Audax site. This little 100db 170mm gem is fairly widely used and is exquisitely musical. Clair Bros., EAW, Krix, and others have used it as a high sens. midrange. I have heard it on an open baffle playing wide open from 100- 10000? and it sounded about as good as cone drivers get. They are $68. I will try mine with a horn tweeter rolled in ~9000. One could Add the 103db ribbon unobstructed by passive parts and you have the sound of light. Not much up there but a cap, and a resistor, as I recall.

On www.DIYaudio.com , if you do a search under Pr170 there are a few threads on the matter of using it with the AC ribbon, with workarounds using the Behringer Ultracurve digital XO. Anyone who tracked this one down would have a World Class

OB system for an investment of about $500 in hardware. Even with passive XO it would sound amazing, and still would be about 95db------->sweet.

A 26X40 baffle with a 10% offset would give you your 100Hz, or close enough to it... Add a sub and be done.

-Richard- · « **Reply #26 on:** 15 May 2005, 01:28 am »

I am interested in simplicity...
as a principle to live by and an ethos that will
get us out of this overly complex dependency on technology...
a shift from complexity into something more graceful...
something lighter...that is where the future lies...

Someday the techno-complexity of our lives will be seen
by future generations the way we see the corset...
with its hundreds of whale bones cleverly inserted to keep
the fat from bulging...

They will use organic cells they derive from plants
to energize their technology...or perhaps the house
plant itself will be the only energy source we will
ever need...and wires will disappear along with
our use of eye glasses...

When I first encountered the giant speakers at a
CES show that so many slick magazine reviewers
believe are the "state of the art" I was horrified...

Perfect examples as metaphors of our culture that
must take from the earth and use up huge amounts of
everything because we have not yet learned how to
"participate" with nature with modesty and sensitivity...

The Tao asks...what is the most important element in a room?...
the Tao answers it is the door or window...because it
opens the space up...it get you out of the closed
space of the "dead" room with its pinched and confining
limitations...in other words where the room is not is more
important than the room itself...the walls, floor, et al...
It is obvious that the Tao thinks that no room at all is
preferable to any room...and that would be the anti-thesis
to our current trend to urbanize...

So for me space is an essential issue that wide range single
driver speakers with small low powered amps potentially
use the least...

I suspect that this idea may play a role in Dan's appreciation of open
baffle speaker designs...as well as the sound they produce...

I find my modest Omega Grand 8R's with either Vinnie's amp,
or my tubed single ended pentoid integrated amp sound very
convincing...and I find that very satisfying...and the sound gets me
so close to state-of-the-art realism that I have no wish to acquire
subwoofers or tweeters...

So much so...that I do not think I will ever be able to live with
a large speaker again...or a complex one...let alone a large
complex amp...if less is more in almost every form of aesthetic
consideration...than in considerations of how real space is used
it is even more applicable...

Warm regards -Richard-

smargo · « **Reply #27 on:** 15 May 2005, 04:06 am »

Richard;

Very well spoken! Bravo for keeping things real and in perspective.

Thanks
smargo

JLM · « **Reply #28 on:** 15 May 2005, 01:15 pm »

Richard,

I agree that our equipment should be as complicated as needed but no more. In that vein:

I can't consider a speaker as being audiophile quality if it lacks the bottom octave of music. While more efficient speakers increase dynamics (that no huge amp/inefficient speaker coupling can replace IMO), giving up bass is not acceptable to me. But I recognize that adding a sub (or two) to an extended range single driver based speaker design may be the best possible solution.

Neither is it acceptable to add colorations that nearly all horn loadings introduce.

And my opening statement here would also apply to DMason's three way speaker suggestion. I know that my Clari-T amp is complicated inside, but a three way speaker design produces various distortions that will be heard. For me, the lack of dynamics and high frequency beaming are more acceptable than the vices committed by multiple driver speaker designs. In fact I'd rather try to compensate for some of the loss of dynamics with Vinnie's battery Teac long before abandoning my Fostex F200A based floorstanding MLTL (mass loaded transmission line) speakers (single 8 inch diameter driver, no whizzer, 30 - 20,000 Hz, 8 ohm, 90 dB/w/m).

There's no perfect amp/speaker pairing, just a matter of choosing your own medicine. To each their own.

gary · « **Reply #29 on:** 15 May 2005, 02:18 pm »

JLM -

I don't know if you've looked into them but the Bastanis Prometheus speakers sound like just what you're looking for. Dual powered woofers, wideband drivers in an open baffle that cover 100Hz to 10kHz with no crossover, and a tweeter for the high end. They're sold as a kit, so you'll have to build them and they take an ungodly amount of time to break in but if you can live with that they're some of the best speakers out there IMO. At first I wanted to burn them, after 100 hours they sounded alright, and after 200 hours they began to sound good. Now, after 400 or so hours they sound amazing, so much so that there are no speakers under about $12k that I'd even consider trading them for. Not bad for a kit that cost me $2k. At 100dB/W, they, the Clari-T, and battery NOS dac are a three-way match made in heaven.

There are a couple people I talked to via pm about these speakers, but only initially when I hated them. I can't remember if you were one of those people, but if so ignore my initial comments as things have changed in a big, big way as they broke in.

Gary

Dmason · « **Reply #30 on:** 15 May 2005, 02:39 pm »

JLM

"any ideas on how to design an open baffle with these drivers?"

I am pointing out to you that I posited an "idea" as you had asked me, and qualified it as to its origins. I was answering YOUR question. You turn it into my "suggestion" and criticise it? Abit rough?

To refresh, I hadn't seen anyone extolling the virtues of simplicity before myself, on these boards. My own design is so dead simple it makes me chuckle. In fact, it is about to become even more simple. It is also one of the very best speaker systems I have ever heard. Heard plenty, owned plenty, built plenty. It excels exactly because I have addressed the bass issue successfully. Does it add complexity? Yes. Is it necessary complexity? Only if you are inclined to finish a job.

Taoist Design Philosophy: The best kind of speaker box, is no box.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #31 on:** 15 May 2005, 07:39 pm »

When will the design be sufficiently "complete" to share.

I am planning a pair of subs for the Druids at some point. Bass And dynamics.

GHM · « **Reply #32 on:** 15 May 2005, 08:13 pm »

Hi Gary I was one of those folks you talk to about the speakers.

Glad to see them working out. I personally could'nt live without the stereo subs with the single driver speakers. There's just too much information missing in the lower registers.

I love them(single drivers) for what they do and more than happy to give them a helping hand where they fall short. Without decent subs forget about having weight in Pianos.... It's just not there. With dual subs in the room
I get flat to 30 hz at 70 dB...not bad. The in room response does get down to 20 hz minus a few dB. But as long as I can make it into the 30 hz domain..I'm happy. By the way I may hit you up Gary about some of those panda feet.

-Richard- · « **Reply #33 on:** 16 May 2005, 01:48 am »

Hi Dan,

I like your application of the Taoist philosophy
to your enlightened audio experiences:

"Taoist Design Philosophy: The best kind of
speaker box, is no box."

Extrapolating that idea logically makes the room itself
the baffle to some degree...

In that way you have most certainly cut out yet another
impediment in the playback chain...
the closed baffle speaker has been eliminated from the equation...
and instead you have placed yourself "inside" the baffle...

It is no wonder that your experiences with open baffle designs
is giving you a musical experience that is on a totally different level...

As you said recently "...with the individual's auditory wiring thrown
into the mix..." really comes to life as a real experience when
I consider the fact that you are "inside" the baffle-as-room...

It also makes sense that you are using the Behringer
Ultracurve digital XO, to taper some of the room interactions
on your open baffle designs...considering that you are "inside"
the baffle, one might be even more sensitive to room interactions
than if the sound came from a closed baffle solution...

In this way Dan, you have implemented the ultimate example of
less equals more...no speaker cabinet makes the entire room
including the "wiring" of your nervous system the "cabinet"
and proves most emphatically that indeed...less is more...

Warm regards -Richard-

1UP · « **Reply #34 on:** 26 May 2005, 10:30 am »

Hi all, I'm new to your forum but just got an SI myself and am getting great results with some French speakers by a manufacturer called Triangle - try their ES range of standmounts and floorstanders - possessing speed, clarity, and musicality/drama up the wazoo; they have a great synergy with these amazing amps.

JLM · « **Reply #35 on:** 26 May 2005, 10:49 am »

DMason,

Sorry if I came across rough. I much appreciate all the thought, energy, and experience you've shared. Thanks in large part to you I own a Clari-T. It's exactly what you said it would be here on forum and in PM. Personally I'm more excited about the B200 O.B. than three ways. For $300 USD the added efficiency/dynamics could well be worth trying compared to the musical/deeper bass from my single driver speakers, especially paired to a Clari-T.

Dmason · « **Reply #36 on:** 26 May 2005, 01:15 pm »

Well, we can now have an open forum to discuss the possibilities between the ClariT and the Visaton B200. To my ears, nothing on Earth sounds like these two things stirred into the soup. This kind of sound could put the whole High End out of business, as far as I am concerned.

The whole point is to get the midband done right. The critical midrange, 200 to 500Hz which is the two octaves on each side of Middle C. This might not sound like much to non musicians, but it is the entire range of chordal accompaniment, and into what audiophools call "midbass." Which is sort of erroneous, but we will let them have their way, for the time being, a discussion of correct musical nomenclature could follow after everyone listens to Tchaikovsky 5th on DarkStars.

If you can get the midband right, everything else can fall into place. Now, with the Visatons, no one has ever needed to add tweeters, unless they need to hear the ultra overtone stuff waaaaay up there, and have wound up killing the sound because of differing physical characteristics of different drivers, projecting different wavefronts etc etc, but no need here. Further, the B200 is technically an ideal driver for open baffle. It also has good Xmax, can sink TONS of power, and the high damping factor of the Tripath amp really grips the driver hard, and exerts great control, as we have already seen, but to greater effect in OB speakers, which only serves to increase coherency, and push dynamic capabilities RIGHT OVER THE TOP. Add some contouring in the digital domain, and you can push the bass down further than the baffle rolloff would normally allow you. In other words, with contouring, for once in you life, you can bend the Laws of Physics. And the best part, complete enclosure systems are usually available in an alley near you. One sheet of MDF = 2 baffles.

And as always, no thing is for every one.

BenF · « **Reply #37 on:** 26 May 2005, 06:34 pm »

Dmason

Can you provide dimensions and locations for the baffles and the cutouts in the MDF for these home-made OB speakers? Or is there a site that helps? Any and all detail you can provide would be appreciated. If you have plans to sell plans at some point, I'll understand if you can't provide what I've requested at the moment, but the low cost, high quality audio goal is so important I had to ask.

I absolutely believe in low cost audio for all. Thanks for contributing your findings in this regard.

Ben

Dmason · « **Reply #38 on:** 26 May 2005, 07:02 pm »

Ben

Go to the new DarkStar thread for links and development of spin-offs.

I am not going to openly and freely share ALL of my findings because several people have commissioned me to build them complete fullrange DarkStars. My own DarkStar design is thus a commercial concern. THe basic and most important concepts are being discussed now.

BenF · « **Reply #39 on:** 27 May 2005, 06:50 pm »

Very interesting. I hope all works out for you on the commercial endeavors too.

Ben

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=19253&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Plunging into Clari-T waters..

BenF

BenF