Woofers Oscillate with LP playback

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rollo

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Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« on: 20 Dec 2024, 05:13 pm »
  Installed a Ortofon 2M bronze cart. All good and set up properly Using a tubed phono stage. When playing LP the woofers oscillate. Clueless thinking maybe tube in phono section. Not happening with CD playback.  12AU 7 tubes. No extra pair to swap out. Thanks Guys.

charles

Photon46

Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #1 on: 20 Dec 2024, 05:28 pm »
More info needed about your situation to help diagnose. Is this a previously installed analog rig that developed a problem only after installing a new cartridge? Or is this a newly setup and installed turntable system with a problem from startup? If it's the later situation, what kind of flooring and turntable support is in play? Never heard of a bad tube causing this problem for anyone though. Acoustic feedback resulting from a suspended floor on joists or an inadequately rigid support or isolation for the turntable is the usual cause of this issue.

HAL

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #2 on: 20 Dec 2024, 06:03 pm »
It is a possible LF tone arm resonance with the arm and cartridge pair.  You can check the cartridge compliance and arm mass to see if that is the problem.  There are charts that show compatibility.

A high pass rumble filter can deal with that problem if that is the cause.

rollo

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #3 on: 20 Dec 2024, 06:41 pm »
  Thanks Guys. Cart/Arm proper match. Same stand same TT just different Cart. VTA Adj helped a bit.

charles

jschwenker

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #4 on: 20 Dec 2024, 11:54 pm »
I’ll second HAL’s input. If the tonearm/cart combo natural frequency is not causing other problems (skipping, etc.) then a rumble filter is the usual remedy for LP driven ‘woofer pumping'.

5-10 hz high pass Linkwitz slope is fine. There are some folks that have offered stand alone units (KAB Great Sound Escort RF-1) but if you have any signal processing it could also be programmed in. (thinking of the widely used for sub crossover Behringer products and the like)

rotarius

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #5 on: 21 Dec 2024, 03:25 pm »
This is why a properly designed phono stage should have a rumble filter that is switchable.  You could try using spacers and nylon mounting hardware to see if it alters the system resonance for the better.

rollo

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #6 on: 21 Dec 2024, 04:24 pm »
  Using a Audio Hungary Preamp with tubed MM phono built in. Have a Creek Windsor Phono stage [SS] to try. Thanks for the input.

charles

twitch54

Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #7 on: 22 Dec 2024, 05:38 pm »
It is a possible LF tone arm resonance with the arm and cartridge pair.  You can check the cartridge compliance and arm mass to see if that is the problem.  There are charts that show compatibility.

A high pass rumble filter can deal with that problem if that is the cause.

Bingo.........we have a winner !

SET Man

Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #8 on: 22 Dec 2024, 08:25 pm »
Hey!
  Yes, likely the cart/arm resonance is the culprit.

   My pre have rumble filter which I can't turn off so when I set up cart I use Hi-Fi News test record with vertical and horizontal resonance test tracks to check arm/cart resonance. Luckily so far all the carts I've use tend to fall on the acceptable range.

   Anyway, out of curiosity... Charles/rollo, what cart you had on that arm before the Ortofon M2 Bronze? 

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #9 on: 22 Dec 2024, 09:42 pm »
My son had the same issue and it was due to not enough TT isolation from the bass from his speakers.  We used something similar to these attenuators and it fixed the problem.

https://www.amazon.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-High-Pass/dp/B0006N41BU

Gumby

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #10 on: 23 Dec 2024, 01:24 am »
Rollo, I have the same problem.  It’s not a tonearm cartridge mismatch.  It’s not the floors. You just need a Phono Pre with a bass filter.  I have two turntables, a cd player and streamer. Each turntable has a new cartridge professionally installed. The woofers flap while using either turntable. My floors are thick concrete so the problem is not a bouncy floor. I also tested moving a turntable far away from the speakers and the issue remained. My main speakers are small standmounts with 5” woofers. But I also have several pairs of older speakers with larger woofers. When I connect those larger speakers there are no woofers oscilating.  The small bookshelves are super sensitive to vinyl irregularities.  Each record has more or less or zero woofer flapping. When I switched to a Phono Pre with a bass filter the problem went away.  I’m currently using a Simaudio 110 which works well. But the Lehmann Black Cube Statement with its bass filter on works the best. Zero flapping.
SUMMARY
Change the Speakers or the Phono Pre

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #11 on: 23 Dec 2024, 04:22 pm »
This is the subsonic filter that we bought and it works to get rid of the woofer slap.  Read all the positive reviews.

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/60042/DB_Systems-DB_Systems_Subsonic_Filter-Turntable_Accessories

rollo

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #12 on: 23 Dec 2024, 04:31 pm »
This is the subsonic filter that we bought and it works to get rid of the woofer slap.  Read all the positive reviews.

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/60042/DB_Systems-DB_Systems_Subsonic_Filter-Turntable_Accessories

  Thanks.

charles

rollo

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #13 on: 23 Dec 2024, 04:34 pm »
Hey!
  Yes, likely the cart/arm resonance is the culprit.

   My pre have rumble filter which I can't turn off so when I set up cart I use Hi-Fi News test record with vertical and horizontal resonance test tracks to check arm/cart resonance. Luckily so far all the carts I've use tend to fall on the acceptable range.

   Anyway, out of curiosity... Charles/rollo, what cart you had on that arm before the Ortofon M2 Bronze?

   Audio Technia. The Ortofon and the Kuzma Stogi S VTA arm is a VG match.

charles

rollo

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #14 on: 23 Dec 2024, 04:36 pm »
Rollo, I have the same problem.  It’s not a tonearm cartridge mismatch.  It’s not the floors. You just need a Phono Pre with a bass filter.  I have two turntables, a cd player and streamer. Each turntable has a new cartridge professionally installed. The woofers flap while using either turntable. My floors are thick concrete so the problem is not a bouncy floor. I also tested moving a turntable far away from the speakers and the issue remained. My main speakers are small standmounts with 5” woofers. But I also have several pairs of older speakers with larger woofers. When I connect those larger speakers there are no woofers oscilating.  The small bookshelves are super sensitive to vinyl irregularities.  Each record has more or less or zero woofer flapping. When I switched to a Phono Pre with a bass filter the problem went away.  I’m currently using a Simaudio 110 which works well. But the Lehmann Black Cube Statement with its bass filter on works the best. Zero flapping.
SUMMARY
Change the Speakers or the Phono Pre


   Thank you. I have a Creek Windsor Phono to use as well. Will give it a go.

charles

jschwenker

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #15 on: 23 Dec 2024, 07:11 pm »
If it helps, here’s a way to think about it:

MOST of the time, extra woofer excursions are not indicative of a real equipment problem upstream. It is usually the cart/arm system actually trying to respond accurately to real mechanical information at the record surface. Below about 5-10 Hz this info is not actual audio signal but is instead unwanted sub-sonic “noise” from record surface warps. Some may not be very visible to the eye but become more so when “read” out through woofer motions.

And large woofer motions have other unintended consequences of amplifier over-taxing or simply moving the woofer off of the center sweet spot where best audio performance happens or in the worst case bottoming out against the end of woofer travel.

Filter it out and you’ll be pleased with more cart/arm combos...

SET Man

Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #16 on: 23 Dec 2024, 08:19 pm »
   Audio Technia. The Ortofon and the Kuzma Stogi S VTA arm is a VG match.

charles

Hey!

   That's a good arm should be good with most carts out there. And this didn't happened before the Ortofon?

    Another thing to consider is a little bit of warped vinyl.. and most have this especially at the edge will cause woofer pump also.

    As with phono pre... they are two side of this... some companies don't put rumble filter in their phono pre for a purer signal path I guess and can play down low. But for me I think it is necessary, woofer pump waste watts and I only have 18wpc! Also, as a single driver speaker user... this cause unnecessary distortion and etc. I think rolling off anything below 15hz is a good idea... don't know what's the cut off feq of my pre's phono stage though. But I know it definitely have a rumble filter.
    Anyway, keep us posted on your finding.

rollo

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #17 on: 23 Dec 2024, 08:19 pm »
If it helps, here’s a way to think about it:

MOST of the time, extra woofer excursions are not indicative of a real equipment problem upstream. It is usually the cart/arm system actually trying to respond accurately to real mechanical information at the record surface. Below about 5-10 Hz this info is not actual audio signal but is instead unwanted sub-sonic “noise” from record surface warps. Some may not be very visible to the eye but become more so when “read” out through woofer motions.

And large woofer motions have other unintended consequences of amplifier over-taxing or simply moving the woofer off of the center sweet spot where best audio performance happens or in the worst case bottoming out against the end of woofer travel.




Filter it out and you’ll be pleased with more cart/arm combos...

  Using a BSG QOL in the mix between Pre and Amp The QOL sums lft and rt channels does its processing and sends out a stereo signal.  Noticed my subs which are not connected to Qol but preamp sub outs are NOT oscillating. It is the processor it appears. Thank for your thoughts. MERRY CHRISTMAS to ALL.

charles

rollo

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Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #18 on: 24 Dec 2024, 04:28 pm »
VICTORY !!! Not the processor. Tightened screws of counterweights and Cart. A piece of dust was on back of Cant.as well. Thank you all for your input. MERRY CHRISTMAS

charles

SET Man

Re: Woofers Oscillate with LP playback
« Reply #19 on: 24 Dec 2024, 08:06 pm »
Hey!
   
   Ah! The finicky nature of the analog vinyl playback. Anyway, good to see the problem is solved.