[MattSelinger]

Basic question:   Has GR Research ever considered designing a speaker for live music reinforcement? 

Why the question: I have built several speaker kits from GR Research (X-LS Encores, NX Studios, Desktop Minis, Servo Sub) and this has led to me getting rid of every commercial speaker I have owned for home music listening.... Definitives BPs, KEF LS50, Martin Logans, Boston VRs and more - all gone.  None of them come close to the quality and enjoyment from the GR speakers.  One of my "side jobs" is mixing live sound at a few different churches and I have also led several sound system replacement projects for a number of venues.  I have become very familiar with the "low to mid-grade" speaker systems that are commonly used for small to medium sized live band events.  Most commonly you see powered 10", 12" or 15" box speakers from QSC, JBL, EV, etc. matched with powered subs.  I mixed an event earlier today and while it sounded great (admittedly I am biased), the thought popped into my head - "what if I had boxes that were designed by Danny?"  How much better could it sound for the people attending the event?

Qualifiers on the question:  Target event size ~ 100-300 people.  Not trying to compete with line array type systems.

Thanks for entertaining the question!

[DannyBadorine]

Have you ever had the chance to mix on any L-Acoustic, D&B or Meyer systems?  That is what Danny and GR Research would be competing with.  I'm not saying that they couldn't compete but that's the real competition in live sound.

[FullRangeMan]

Sound Reinforcement and PA needs hi efficiency and hi power drivers what is easy to find currently enclosures usually are BR dry box for more SPL and less cost.

[EdwardT]

I enjoy listening to Danny's voicings for speakers but I think maybe this is an apples and oranges thing as FullRangeMan suggests. GR is designed for a controlled environment and in my experience live sound is anything but. I prefer active crossovers and a fair amount of control over eq and amp output for live mixing, things I feel that are at odds with high end home listening systems. That D&B gear is the best IMO, followed by L'Acoustics or JBL's Vertec or one of the many Meyer variants. A high output PA with Danny's voicing would be nice, though, so there’s that.

[drphoto]

I was a semi-pro FoH engineer for over a decade (local music scene only) I think for smaller venues, the JBL SRX line is pretty hard to beat. DANNYB mentioned Meyer. Their stuff is the Roll Royce of live sound IMO. But as far as I know they only make tour level gear. But man is it good. Our local performing arts center has a Meyer array w/ an SSL mixer (not sure of power amps) and it's friggin world class. I really like EAW, close to Meyer.....call it the Mercedes S class.....but still a lot of $.They make small venue gear, but prepare to sell a kidney to buy.

In my home jam/live performance music studio I have a couple of 12" 2-way powered QSC and they are really damn impressive for the money. Zero complaints. I would do a contract gig with them. Still, if doing on regular basis for money, I'd pony up for the SRX. $1600 for a 12" 2-way and $2400/ea for single 18" subs is not exactly chump change in my book.  Especially considering how little local live music gigs pay these days.

Not saying you didn't have a good idea......but there's just no market there. Plus sound guys tend to go with what they know, or what everyone else has. JBL dominated  (and still does) the market. Took some time for QSC to break through. (EV has their fans too) The one new product (at least it was a few year ago) that people jumped on was the Behringer X32 mixer. Massive hit. But it is a great board. A total clone of the Midas M32 with cheaper parts.....especially the motorized faders. And cheaper preamps (oddly enough both owned by same company) But the B-ring seems to hold up in the field. If it were me, I'd get the Midas as the preamps have way more clean headroom.  But I'm a snob. 

[VinceT]

Check out Bill Fitzmaurice's DIY designs. I never heard them personally. his designs get good feedback. He has been designing diy livesound enclosures for years.

[DannyBadorine]

I was a semi-pro FoH engineer for over a decade (local music scene only) I think for smaller venues, the JBL SRX line is pretty hard to beat. DANNYB mentioned Meyer. Their stuff is the Roll Royce of live sound IMO. But as far as I know they only make tour level gear. But man is it good. Our local performing arts center has a Meyer array w/ an SSL mixer (not sure of power amps) and it's friggin world class. I really like EAW, close to Meyer.....call it the Mercedes S class.....but still a lot of $.They make small venue gear, but prepare to sell a kidney to buy.

In my home jam/live performance music studio I have a couple of 12" 2-way powered QSC and they are really damn impressive for the money. Zero complaints. I would do a contract gig with them. Still, if doing on regular basis for money, I'd pony up for the SRX. $1600 for a 12" 2-way and $2400/ea for single 18" subs is not exactly chump change in my book.  Especially considering how little local live music gigs pay these days.

Not saying you didn't have a good idea......but there's just no market there. Plus sound guys tend to go with what they know, or what everyone else has. JBL dominated  (and still does) the market. Took some time for QSC to break through. (EV has their fans too) The one new product (at least it was a few year ago) that people jumped on was the Behringer X32 mixer. Massive hit. But it is a great board. A total clone of the Midas M32 with cheaper parts.....especially the motorized faders. And cheaper preamps (oddly enough both owned by same company) But the B-ring seems to hold up in the field. If it were me, I'd get the Midas as the preamps have way more clean headroom.  But I'm a snob. 

FYI-L-Acoustics is actually the dominant force in live sound these days.  JBL might sell a lot of mid range gear, but L-Acoustics and D&B do the most live shows.  Clair Global systems does a lot also.  JBL is going to end up lower on the list now.  Meyer is in the mix too. All Recent (last 15 years) Meyer systems are powered so no need to look for amps.  They're in the boxes.

I think Danny Richie could do a great job in live sound.  It would definitely be different drivers in the boxes.  His "voicing" is not really different than what live sound engineers are doing.  The idea is to get as flat of a line in as much of the room as possible.  Danny R is doing it by making speakers that respond well in the room.  This is why you hear him talking about off axis frequency response so much when he's redesigning crossovers in other boxes that  might be alright on-axis, but they fail off axis.  It's the same approach in live sound, it's just in bigger rooms, with more efficient drivers and lots more boxes in an array.
But........that's a whole different world and level of manufacturing.  Those line arrays in arenas are well over a million dollars in equipment.  They're all active systems (except certain aspects of D&B which sometimes have passive mid and high crossovers).

[DannyBadorine]

If anyone is interested in the direction that live sound is heading, then check out this company.  The speakers are robotic and the horizontal waveguides steer the sound from 200Hz and up.  It's amazing stuff!
https://pksound.live/product/alliance/loudspeakers/trinity

[MattSelinger]

Wow!  Thanks for sharing all the ideas, thoughts and experience.  What if we focus the idea (or dream) to a Danny Richie designed box about the size of a QSC K12 (arguably one of the more popular speakers on a stick you see at small/medium size events).  Make it a powered box that accepts XLR input. I am happy to build the cabinets for some tests

One of the issues I have experienced with these boxes (QSC, JBL, EV, etc) is they are Class D amplified and when you get the volume up to where they are working a little bit hard, the high frequencies (vocal, cymbals, lead electric) start to "mash" and clarity falls off dramatically.  I am talking volume level in a working range for an event ~ 85-89 dBA.  This is a place they should be able to produce clean/clear sound in my opinion (room size dependent and all the other qualifiers related to surfaces, treatment, etc). 

Funny thing - PreSonus makes boxes that compete in this "lower/mid cost" powered speaker arena and they went the route of having Class D amplification for the LF driver and Class A for the HF driver.  I have done side-by-side A/B comparison to QSC and the quality difference in sound is quite obvious to trained ears and untrained listeners can also hear the difference.  No mash or breakup unless you push too far.  Also Class A seems to result in a softer/more natural sound presentation.  The full Class D speakers come across pretty harsh.

[DannyBadorine]

I don't think the issue is Class D as much as it is the driver components.  Class D amplifiers generally have considerable less distortion than anything else.  The distortion and harshness that you're hearing has to do with the compression drivers and waveguides being used in cheaper designs. 
https://reconingspeakers.com/products-page/qsc-xd-000061-00-k8-2-k10-2-k12-2-hf-compression-driver/
This is the titanium diaphragm in the QSC stuff.  Those titanium diaphragms wobble and distort heavily.
I couldn't find any information on what Presonus is using in their boxes.  JBL is known for distortion in the top end. 
If you're looking to get away from that then I would consider something from these guys:
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxials-hf/1-4/8/DCX464-8
They have new technology that is similar to what we're using in Planar Tweeters.  This material and design has a lot less distortion.

But if this is the direction you're heading then it's going to cost a lot more money to get that loud and not distort.

[EdwardT]

I used those PreSonus cabs and subs driven by a Midas M32 recently and I was pretty happy with the results in a 125x75 room.  I was also introduced to a Soundcraft Ui24 driven by an iPad and I kinda liked that better than the Midas. Lots of good stuff out there.

[MattSelinger]

I don't think the issue is Class D as much as it is the driver components.  Class D amplifiers generally have considerable less distortion than anything else.  The distortion and harshness that you're hearing has to do with the compression drivers and waveguides being used in cheaper designs. 
https://reconingspeakers.com/products-page/qsc-xd-000061-00-k8-2-k10-2-k12-2-hf-compression-driver/
This is the titanium diaphragm in the QSC stuff.  Those titanium diaphragms wobble and distort heavily.
I couldn't find any information on what Presonus is using in their boxes.  JBL is known for distortion in the top end. 
If you're looking to get away from that then I would consider something from these guys:
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxials-hf/1-4/8/DCX464-8
They have new technology that is similar to what we're using in Planar Tweeters.  This material and design has a lot less distortion.

But if this is the direction you're heading then it's going to cost a lot more money to get that loud and not distort.

Completely agree with DannyBadorine - the titanium HF driver is part of the issue or maybe it is the primary issue.  B&C coaxial looks very interesting and like you said probably a pricey approach. 

[DannyBadorine]

Price is going to be the thing.  Most major manufacturers are using Class D amplifiers (Meyer, L-Acoustic, D&B, Clair, etc.) Everyone made the shift over the last 15 years.  It's just too efficient with Class D.
If you want to design a box like those then PM me and I'm happy to give my 2 cents.  I work with most of these manufacturers on a regular basis.  The reality is that it would be difficult to make anything better or equal for even the same price.  They get massive deals on parts by buying in bulk and they get the best that they can out of them.

[Danny Richie]

I could design something for that market if there was enough demand.

There are trade offs to deal with too. Most stage gear or speakers meant for touring are made to be portable. They have wheels on the bottom and they are lightly constructed. Some of those lightly constructed boxes buzz like crazy. I am not sure how much they would like a heavy and well braced cabinet that weighs twice as much.

[drphoto]

Oh, I fully agree that the JBL powered stuff is mid-level quality. But I think it's fine for local stuff in smaller venues. I never had an issue w/ distortion in the higher registers as I simply don't push my rigs very hard. I don't like screaming loud and most audience members don't either. Also, always made sure not to bright. I lot of the guys who've been around forever are half deaf and the sound is always too bright.

I haven't been to any big shows in years, I didn't know there were high end arrays considered better than Meyer. But hey, things change.

Yeah, portability is important, so weight is a consideration. As in all things there are always going to be trade offs.

[EdwardT]

Just to clear up one misconception: D&B are very well constructed and are not light, a strip of 16 cabs requires a 2 ton motor for rigging.



None of the cabinets in this truck wreck sustained more than slight cosmetic damage but the load did have to be returned to Nashville for rigging recertification. A stack of four weighs in between 600-700 lbs and rides on a removable wheel base, the subs do have attached castors but you'd be hard pressed to lift one with just two people.