[GDeering]

I had a turntable/phono pre/tube pre hooked to a Panasonic XR 70, but it sounded pretty boring.  I much prefer my CDP via a coax cable.  I think the lowly Panasonic does some things extremely well, and it has made me re-think a lot of priorities.

But as less expensive digital evolves, is there any hope for analog with the digital gear?

I have not heard an Evo or any of the better digital amps, I am really just wondering if the digital amp crowd (which I suspect has the potential to be huge) is CD only?


Gregg

[lcrim]

I use an analog front end w/ a Teac amp (Class T-Tripath).  I can't agree that it sounds at all boring.  The quality of the source rather than the format being used is the more important determinant in my system.  Since the Tripath chip in the Teac only accepts analog inputs, everything has to be analog to be amplified.
I previously had a digital receiver like the Panny, that actually acted as the DAC, so feeding it a digital (PCM) input was a neat thing.
I think that the quality of the amplification is the higher value.  SACD sources, DVD-A and analog along with PCM can be used with digital amplification, and with excellent results.  In my signature below you can see my systems, I really like analog and I find that it works really well with a digital amp.   I also like SET amps and I am certainly not into "little girl with guitar"  music.
If you plan to do digital room correction or speaker correction then allowing some way to manipulate the musical data seems to require a digital conversion however.

[timbley]

I felt the same way as you when I first tried playing records using the Panasonic's analog inputs. Later, I did a sound comparison with my CD/DVD player, switching between digital and analog input. To my suprise, the analog did very well. I wasn't hearing a huge difference. I think the problem was that my LP setup has a rather lowish output after the phono stage. Earlier, my CD/DVD player also had the main channels attenuated 9db to match the surround and center, making it sound less good on the analog inputs. When I brought the output back up to minus  zero db, it sounded really good. Now I'm using a Behringer DCX crossover to feed the analog inputs for bi-amping, and it  sends too strong a signal, causing the overflow warning on the Panny, forcing me to use a little digital attenuation before the DCX output.  LP fed from my sound card into the Behringer is very dynamic and exciting. I listened to a W. Carlos LP last night and it was a real trip!

In short, I think the A/D converters in the Panny sound best when they're fed a strong input signal, just lower than what would cause the overflow warning. You get the best signal to noise ration and resolution that way.

[GDeering]

Thanks for the replies, I really should think of the Panasonic as a DAC, and not generalize  - but I can’t help it.

All of audio is a trade off.  Currently for me it’s like an art project: color vs. line.  

I have had tubes, a stock Fisher 500C with original tubes, and a Bottlehead Paraglow (2A3 S.E.T.).  The Fisher was 90% of the Paraglow, It was better in some respects.  My speakers are the Fostex/Abbys.  Both amps have a rich beautiful sound, with instruments if not ”visually” in place, they were sonically blooming between the speakers.  That, if you will, is the “color”.  A sound that obscures elements in the music.  But a beautiful sound.

In other places I have described my impressions of the Panasonic, entry level caveats etc...  Even with its faults I am getting more information out of the Abbys.     It’s not beautiful by a long shot, at least the fleshed out beauty of the tubes, but it showed the Paraglow’s and Fisher’s shortcomings with the Abbys.  That in a sense is like “line”, it describes sharp outlines and detail, but misses color and tonal beauty of the instruments.

OK, sorry for the artificial distinctions, but it’s been an educational process.   So currently I’m stuck between the beauty of tube cushioned sound, and the harsher, but more dynamic sound of the digital.  Having the vinyl fit in to the mix is essential if I want to move up the digital chain

Before I look seriously back to tubes I want to be versed in the sound of a good Digital amp to make sure that I keep the qualities that the Panasonic brought out in my old CDs.  Simply buying better S.E.T.  and pairing it with the right preamp is no longer the simple option that it seemed before the little Panasonic.  

Also the line stage was the Bottlehead Foreplay and a Wright phono stage, so plenty of gain.  The problem is probably the mix of tubes with the Panasonic.  In any case it was no match for the CDP.

Gregg

[lcrim]

Yeah, what Timbley said about the differences in input levels between the CD player and the analog section is probably why LP's sounded dull in comparison.  Most CDplayers are 2 volt outputs while analog reqiures a load of gain to get near that figure.
Timbley, when you posted about digitizing your analog, I thought that was like going around the block to get next door. but it makes more sense if you're doing digital equalization.  Almost

[timbley]

Timbley, when you posted about digitizing your analog, I thought that was like going around the block to get next door. but it makes more sense if you're doing digital equalization.  Almost

Yes, it is like going around the block to get next door. It's definitely not ideal for listening to analog sources. The signal chain starts out analog, gets converted to digital, then is processed by the EQ/crossover, then is converted back to analog, sent to the Panny, which converts it back to digital, and then finally gets converted back to an analog waveform by the amplifier.  You'd think it'd be a total disaster, but it sounds surprisingly good.

If I could modify the Behringer to provide digital output, and the Panasonic to accept 6 channels of digital input, I could remove the DA/AD step. Then it wouldn't be such a big block to go around.  The other option for me is to get a 6 channel receiver that uses a Tripath or other digital amp/analog control level  implementation , avoiding the final A/D/DA step that way. I've heard good things on these forums about the JVC receivers, especially when using analog inputs. I may have to try one of those.

[timbley]

Before I look seriously back to tubes I want to be versed in the sound of a good Digital amp to make sure that I keep the qualities that the Panasonic brought out in my old CDs. Simply buying better S.E.T. and pairing it with the right preamp is no longer the simple option that it seemed before the little Panasonic. .

I picked up a JVC F10 yesterday, inspired by all the raves on this forum. I really think you should get one of these and give it a try. It's better suited for analog input, and has a richer sound. So far I love it, and doubt I will be going back to the Panasonic.

[tubeytubeamp]

I have a Musichall MMf5 and Parasound PPH100 phono pre run through the DVD-Multi inputs of my JVC RX-ES1sl. The sound is pretty lifeless and boring with most records. It has nothing to due with the JVC however. The Parasound is a piece of crap. Prior to the Parasound I had an Antique Sound USA pp1 phono in my old tube setup and it put CD's to shame. I wish I never sold it to say the least. I hardly listen to records anymore.

In general Vinyl should always sound superior to CD if your front end is of high quality, regardless of the amplification used.

[corwin99]

When i tested my modified Sonic Impact T-Amp with a Rega P9 and a Sonic Frontiers Phono preamp it sounded better than the Sonic Frontiers Iris transport with Level 3 DAC... I was quite surprised. The character of the Sonic Impact was best suited to Vinyl playback in that system.

-neL

[GDeering]

Thanks for the April updates guys.  Man can not live on CD alone.

Gregg