MDF vs plywood for OB subs

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e_biz80

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MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« on: 17 Feb 2020, 02:09 pm »
I’m building H frame cabs for Danny’s servo subs. Any difference between using MDF vs Baltic birch plywood except for price?

mlundy57

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #1 on: 17 Feb 2020, 02:51 pm »
MDF machines easier. BB has a tendency to tear out when cutting roundovers.

astam734

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #2 on: 17 Feb 2020, 02:58 pm »
No acoustic differences?

Peter J

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #3 on: 17 Feb 2020, 03:23 pm »
I think it also depends on what your final finish and look is going t be. MDF is fairly easy to prep for paint, BB less so. MDF is probably more dimensionally stable, but that's probably hair splitting. All MDF is not equal nor is BB all the same.

If you really want to go crazy, you can do a hybrid like I did here:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139529.0

Captainhemo

Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #4 on: 18 Feb 2020, 04:38 am »
Personally, I'd  go  MDF/Medex due to what  Mike  mentioned.   If you are leaving everything  square, not so much of an issue.
If you do go with MDF,  try and thet   it in  approx  .75gr.cc.. there is a lot of less dense stuff  floating around  out there.

jay

e_biz80

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #5 on: 18 Feb 2020, 01:02 pm »
Well it looks like I'll have a while to think about it as Danny is out of stock on the woofers and said it will be at least six weeks before he gets any in.

FullRangeMan

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #6 on: 18 Feb 2020, 03:01 pm »
With FR drivers are connected direct to the amp, when there is no xover the transparency is very hi and is possible listen that BB are a best sound quality than MDF but this may not be important in a sub cabinet.

You have to consider MDF is carcinogenic due to emanating formaldehyde vapors for 5 years or more, so it should be well painted inside and out, inside must be mate black paint.
« Last Edit: 18 Feb 2020, 05:39 pm by FullRangeMan »

FullRangeMan

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #7 on: 18 Feb 2020, 03:02 pm »
Additional info.
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2 What is MDF?
MDF belongs to the hardboard family of products which are made from wood fibers glued under heat and pressure. Medium Density Fiberboard typically has densities between 33 and 50 pounds per cubic feet while High Density Fiberboard (HDF) ranges between 50 and 80 pounds per cubic feet. Hardboard was first produced in 1924 by W. H. Mason, founder of Masonite Corp. The term Masonite is therefore often used to denote hardboard products, especially HDF.
Physical and dimensional tolerances for MDF are specified in ANSI A208.2-1986

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3 What properties does MDF exhibit?
MDF has many qualities that make it an ideal replacement for plywood or particle board. It is dense, flat, stiff, has no knots and is easily machined. Its fine particles provide dimensional stability without a predominant "grain" (as is the case with lumber). Unlike most plywoods, MDF contains no voids, and will deliver sharp edges with no tearout. MDF is very well damped acoustically thus making it an ideal material for speaker enclosures.

Below are some metrics for MDF and other types of wood. As you can see, MDF is very dense and heavy, but is not as stiff as other types of wood which is why bracing is suggested.
Wood   Modulus of Elasticity
(in million pounds per square inch)   density
(in pounds per cubic feet)   weight of 4x8 sheet
1/2" thick (in pounds)
MDF   0.53   48   75-85
Oak   1.55   38   60-70
Pine   1.3   29   45-50
Plywood   1.2   33   45-55

The modulus of elasticity (MOE), also called Young's modulus, is the ratio of stress to strain, where stress is the force per unit area placed on the item and strain is the deformation caused by the stress. The MOE is therefore a measure of stiffness.
What does MDF look like?

Here is an image of a birch veneered MDF board on top and for contrast an image of veneered particle board below. Notice the much larger and obvious particles in the particle board.
MDF and Particle Board Comparison

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4 Are there any drawbacks to using MDF?
While MDF has been in use for almost 30 years, it is only now becoming available to the general public. Finding MDF may end up being the single toughest part of using it. As its density implies, MDF is very heavy and thus potentially difficult to handle. See the safety issues below.
What are the safety issues to consider when working with MDF?

MDF is typically made with urea-formaldehyde resin totaling 9% by weight. While most people will not be affected by this, people sensitive to formaldehyde emissions should consider low formaldehyde or formaldehyde-free MDF, or consider methods of controlling these emissions through proper finishing. Finishes that work best at controlling formaldehyde emissions are solid add-on surfaces such as high pressure laminates, vinyl covering, and finished wood veneers. Less effective at controlling emissions are simple seal coats, oil and latex paints, danish oil, and wax. Plum Creek makes low-formaldehyde MDF, while Medite II and Medex from Medite Corp. are formaldehyde-free MDF.

Dust is another MDF hazard. The large amount of dust released when working MDF makes proper respiratory and eye protection mandatory. At a minimum use a dust mask. A respirator is preferable. Shop dust collection (or even a ShopVac) would greatly help the removal of dust from not only the air but also the working surfaces, making them easier to see. Goggles should always be worn while using tools.

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5 Is all MDF the same?
No. MDF from different sources will vary in texture, density, color, etc.

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6 How is MDF sold?
MDF is manufactured in sheets up to 8ft x 25ft. Typical consumer level sheets are 2x2, 2x4, or 4x8 and 1/2 inch, 5/8 inch, 3/4 inch and 1 inch in thickness. Thicknesses can also be metric - an important consideration for the use of English system tools (such as router bits). MDF is also available with a variety of veneers and laminates pre-applied, which may affect its actual thickness.
What about MDO, particle board, hardboard, void-free plywood?

Medium Density Overlay and High Density Overlay are plywood products with a resin impregnated paper coating. They are often used for exterior painted surfaces. These are not fiber based products.

Likewise, particle board is not fiber based; it is a solid wood composite product. Along with flakeboard and other engineered lumbers, composite products are made from wood flakes, chips, splinters, etc., formed into layers and held together by resin glues and heated under pressure. Being layered and consisting of larger chunks, particle board does not have the uniform texture of MDF.

While MDF is a hardboard, the term hardboard is often used to refer to 1/8 or 1/4 inch thick HDF, usually containing a screen pattern on one surface. As previously mentioned, this is commonly referred to as Masonite.

Plywood is made from an odd number of lumber plies, each layer having a grain direction at right angles to the previous layer. This arrangement provides a dimensionally stable product. Void-free plywood uses plies with supposedly no holes, thus the completed plywood has in theory no voids. Baltic birch plywood is often sold as void-free plywood though some users have encountered small voids in these products. Be sure to ask specifically for void-free plywood if this is what you are looking for.
Can I build speakers with {MDF | particle board | plywood | solid wood}?

You can build speakers with whatever you like. However, MDF is often the material of choice. Its stiffness and density yield good acoustical damping properties. Particle board and plywood are cheaper and can still be used if cost is an issue. Plywood (especially if void free) can be used in the main baffle as a sandwich material to better hold fasteners. Plywood is also a good material for making braces inside speaker boxes. Solid wood (lumber) suffers from movement - the swelling and shrinking of wood due to environmental changes such as humidity - and is therefore not a good material for speaker enclosures. Lumber is also not as acoustically dead as MDF.

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7 What should I use to cut and mill MDF?
MDF can be treated much like a fine grained hardwood. Its high glue content means that steel cutting tools will dull VERY quickly; thus the use of carbide tools is highly recommended. Always keep your tools sharp for efficiency and safety.

The following recommendations are from The National Particleboard Association publication:

    For general shop or table saw use with decent cut and good blade life, a 50 tooth, 10 inch combination blade may be used.
    For those demanding a better cut, consider a 60 tooth, 10 inch blade with alternate top bevel (ATB) teeth at 15 degrees, 10 degree positive hook, 5 degree side clearance, 10 degree outside diameter clearance, and low approach angle (blade projecting no more than 0.5 inch through top of material).
    For an even smoother cut, consider an 80 tooth, 10 inch blade with 15 degree ATB, 10 degree alternate face bevel, 15 degree positive hook, and 7 degrees side clearance. This is costlier and may result in a shorter blade life.

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8 Where can I find MDF?
Availability varies geographically so there is no simple answer to this question. Hobbyists have found MDF from a wide variety of sources including, but not limited to :

    large warehouse style supply dealers (Home Depot, Lowes, etc)
    small local lumber yards
    cabinet shops who buy in large quantities and are willing to part with some
    surplus building supply dealers

As MDF becomes more popular you will see it more and more in your local hardware stores. Sometimes, they will only have smaller 2x4 pieces or 1x4 pieces designed for use as shelving, so be sure to look around or ask.

Beware of clueless store clerks trying to pass plywood, particle board or MDO as MDF ! Note that many lumber yards can special order MDF but may not realize this, so it never hurts to ask. Ask them to check their price book for availability.

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9 What kind of joints can I use?
Because MDF can be milled to just about any profile, there are many possible joints. However, not all make sense in the context of speaker building.

    butt - this simplest of joints may not be ideal for furniture but works very well for building speakers, especially when combined with biscuits (for alignment) and screws (for holding strength while the glue dries).
    miter - works well when using pre-finished MDF (veneered or laminated) thus leaving no exposed unfinished surfaces.
    lock-miter, dovetail and other routered joints - works just like lumber. These joints have limited use in most speaker enclosures.
    rabbets, dadoes, grooves and other saw cut joints - same as with hardwood. Note that these can also be cut with a router. These joints may be useful, depending on the design of the speaker.
    spline, biscuit, dowel - as with lumber, the glue joint is stronger than the MDF. Dowel holes should be 0.002 to 0.003 inch larger than the average dowel diameter, and 1/32 to 1/16 inch deeper than the actual depth used. Plain or spiral grooved dowels are preferred over fluted or multigrooved dowels. Biscuits are very handy for alignment of parts in addition to the additional gluing surface provided.

MDF can also be edge glued to make larger surfaces, although this is not likely to happen except with exceptionally large speakers. Panels can be scarfed, doweled, tongue & grooved and finger jointed.

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10 How may various fasteners be used with MDF?
Some typical fasteners and their uses follow:

    staples - Do not staple within 3/4 inch of any corner. Coated staples hold better than smooth staples. Use a finer wire staple if splitting is a problem. Drive at right angle to the surface to avoid bending.
    nails - The same rules apply to nails as they apply to staples. Use ring-shank nails to avoid fiber raising around the nail head; do not use smooth nails.
    screws - Drill pilot holes between 85 % and 90 % of the root diameter of the screw used and at least as deep as the screw. Untapered sheet metal screws with constant size shank are good, as are some untapered wood screws. Pilot hole sizes and minimum edge distances for common screw sizes are :
        #6 screw - 3/32 inch pilot - 1/2 inch edge distance
        #8 screw - 7/64 inch pilot - 5/8 inch edge distance
        #10 screw - 1/8 inch pilot - 1 inch edge distance

Do not rely solely on the above fasteners for building speaker enclosures. This is especially true for butt joints. Combine glue with screws for a simple and strong joint.

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11 What kinds of glues can I use with MDF?
Good glues to use are gap-filling glues such as polyvinyl acetate (PVA) typically known as yellow glue, modified PVA glues like Titebond II or white glues. Epoxy, urea and hot melt glues may also be used.
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10 How can I finish my MDF speaker?
For that finished look, there are many options requiring different levels of woodworking skills.

    The box may be painted. Be sure to seal and prime the surface before painting to ensure even absorption on all surfaces. A high gloss piano finish can be made with combinations of spray enamel, spray lacquer or other topcoats. A little experimentation at this juncture can be very rewarding.
    The box may be laminated. Options include melamine, Formica, or even contact paper. Be sure the surface is clear of dust before applying any laminate.
    The box may be veneered. Carried out properly, veneering can yield a very professional looking speaker. Refer to the references below for veneering info. A veneered surface can be finished with lacquer, varnish, oil or wax depending on individual taste. Stains and dyes may be used to modify the color as desired.

Note that raw MDF is very porous. Use a generous amount of glue to ensure a proper bond.

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12 Are there any other tips for using MDF in speaker enclosures?
Yes, some other tips include:

    Apply the finish to the enclosure after assembly. Then cut the speaker holes. This gives the best appearance for the least work.
    Use shelf braces to stiffen the box and to further support edge joints. Also use 3/4 x 3/4 inch lumber along the inside of edge joints for extra strength and for stiffening.
    Use a table saw for dadoes and grooves when possible. This usually gives better, straighter results.
    On large panels with no bracing or shelves attached, reinforce the panel with one or more 3/4 x 3/4 inch ribs.
    If using particle board, fill exposed edges with spackle or wood filler. Then sand all surfaces thoroughly to get a smooth surface. Prime before painting.
    Two coats of yellow glue applied 10 minutes apart may be used to seal MDF edges.
    Wood or autobody sealer may also be used to seal MDF edges.
    To avoid stripping threads when mounting drivers to MDF baffles use threaded inserts such as T-nuts.
    Excess glue may be removed before it dries with a damp rag. For pre-veneered MDF, care should be taken to avoid smearing glue into the wood grain. An alternative method is to scrape off the glue in its semi-hard state.

simoon

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #8 on: 18 Feb 2020, 03:33 pm »
This guy makes a pretty good case for BB ply.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEh01PX-q9I

mlundy57

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #9 on: 18 Feb 2020, 03:55 pm »
Either will work. After building multiple cabinets with both I’ll stick with MDF

Peter J

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #10 on: 18 Feb 2020, 04:12 pm »
Lots of good info there, although much applies to any sheet goods.

Some additional points:

Most, if not all, of the premium MDF available in North America is rated NAUF (no additional urea formaldehyde). That removes some risk, but there's still the issue of dust...it's a really fine particulate. Dust inhalation is a hazard in all of woodworking or anything that produces dust in general.


Another point is the assertion that wood glue makes good filler. In my experience, it doesn't. Wood glue, by it's very nature is a little plastic when dry, which makes it difficult to sand and abrasion of adjacent surfaces will be at different rates. Something that dries harder is better. Chemically catalyzed products like body filler will often be easier to work as they're intended to be sanded. Epoxies can also be a better plan, although there are a lot of formulations designed for differing functionality. Not to mention all the possible additives, from wood dust to carbon fiber Needless to say, there's more than meets the eye.

Two other things in the final synopsis I disagree with.  Applying finish to cabinet before cutting driver holes? I imagine that being a fast path to an undesirable result in a DIY environment. T-nuts can be useful, but are unnecessary or impractical in many cases when it comes to speaker building. A drop of cyanoacrylate (superglue) will serve to wet, stabilize and harden wood fibers. It works particularly well with MDF, which has a penchant for disintegration with several insertion and removal cycles. A heavy driver like 15" woofer may benefit from the strength provided by T nuts or inserts, but a 6 oz. tweeter would be ridiculous overkill.

Peter J

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #11 on: 18 Feb 2020, 04:26 pm »
This guy makes a pretty good case for BB ply.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEh01PX-q9I

He appears to be very knowledgeable and well versed, I subscribe to his channel.  I take his point to be  that plywood can be suitable, but not specifically superior to MDF. Many things to consider that he didn't cover... painting the most obvious. The damping test looks close enough to be hair splitting, and I'm a hair splitter!

 My biggest takeaway from that video is more about panel damping. Deci Damp will be something I try in the future. Panel damping is also what NoRez is specifically designed to do, although I suspect that's widely misunderstood.

Captainhemo

Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #12 on: 18 Feb 2020, 05:14 pm »
I was going to mention the same thing about the no-rez.
At some point, I'd like to build one of  our dual h-frames outof   1.5 MDF and 1"  Medex and another of the SAME dimesioned Ply and do   the damping tests with and without no-rez.   

jay

FullRangeMan

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #13 on: 18 Feb 2020, 05:40 pm »
Just located the wood flavors.
With no xover FR drivers the flavors are:
BB: soft and warm sound.
MDF: detailed and bright.
Particle Board: neutral, mid on BB/MDF.

mcgsxr

Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #14 on: 18 Feb 2020, 07:35 pm »
I’d go mdf.  And did for a decade. 

I have built up cabinets for speakers that use both mdf and BB for different panels or as a constrained layer.

For OB I’d say mdf is fine as long as the aesthetics work for you. 

rajacat

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Re: MDF vs plywood for OB subs
« Reply #15 on: 18 Feb 2020, 08:09 pm »
I prefer plywood. The damping difference between ply and MDF is marginal. I'd rather not deal with the micro particles that MDF produces that requires either an expensive vacuum shop setup or you must cut it outdoors. Granted MDF is easier to machine but it makes a big mess. I can understand why commercial builders would favor MDF but they can setup a separate shop to deal with the mess issue.