[Gbatokai]

I have done listening tests over the years with various cables and wires, double blind tests, in which neither the listener or the tester know in advance what has changed and under these conditions the differences vanish.  If you know you just paid $1000 for a new cable, certainly it will sound better.

Regarding tubes, they are active devices, with different gain bandwidth products, and each brand is different, and even sample to sample within brands, most of which we can sort out with a square wave gene ...

As I'm sure you are aware, double blind tests only have the potential to confirm if there is a difference - even though the test shows no difference this does not necessarily mean there isn't one. This is from a scientific point of view, and there have been numerous articles to this effect - even in Stereophile. There is a science to testing and statistics too, and this can be wrongly applied just as easily as electrical engineering.

The test itself introduces several parameters that are not relevant when listening to music - and it has been my experience that the best way to evaluate gear is to listen to music (not the sound) over time. This is logical, since the the ear/brain mechanism can then compare the current sound of well-known music to how it used to sound.

I don't mean to provoke anyone, but please investigate the science behind blind tests before erroneously applying the results.

I am tempted by your amps, Frank - they seem to be right up my alley, and if I hadn't already gotten an Aleph 30 used, I'd have loved to try one

The effect of using better power cords has had varying degrees of success with different types of gear in my experience, but I don't spend big bucks on it - I make my own from double-shielded 2,5sqmm multi-core computer cable and sturdy, generic connectors, which makes for about $17 per cord. The shielding seems to have a beneficial effect, sparing low-level nearby cables.

[avahifi]

I read the white paper, it appears to me that somebody has invented a whole bunch of new undocumented cables distortions (no math or engineering - just verbage) in able to sell you expensive cures for all those new undocumented cable problems.

For an example of how a "white paper" should be presented, go to the www.birotechnology.com website and read the engineering analysis Mithat made to the international Society of Audio Engineering a few years ago at their national convention in Denmark.  The paper suggests that the d'Appolito vertical symetrical array speaker system is not as useful as thought at first glance.  Of course the report involves real measurements and math, and that is nowhere near as much fun as paying $500 for an power cord and ooohing and aaahing over it (but it -- the math -- is more useful, if not as much fun).  Frank Van Alstine






D'Appolito

[guest1632]

Sorry Frank, but you miss the point.  There is no problem with your amp as is, or any amp for that matter.  I've had your 350EX in my system, and it was wonderful.   What I have found though, is that the specific power cord that I own increases what is already good about an amp, pre-amp or source component.   It has a dramactic and universal effect on all equipment it's been used on, it makes electronic reproduction of music more "musical".   This power cord has done this transformation on every component I ...

[guest1632]

I have done listening tests over the years with various cables and wires, double blind tests, in which neither the listener or the tester know in advance what has changed and under these conditions the differences vanish.  If you know you just paid $1000 for a new cable, certainly it will sound better.

Regarding tubes, they are active devices, with different gain bandwidth products, and each brand is different, and even sample to sample within brands, most of which we can sort out with a square wave gene ...

[John B]

Which or whose power cord are you using? thanks. -  

Hi Ray,

I'm using both the Prethrilla and Ampthrilla power cords, made by an outfit called Sahuaro cables.   Here's a link to where I purchased the cords.  http://www.audiolon.com/home/page2.html.  

The problem is this.  Without an IEC connection there's no way to test whether the cords I own will have a benefit with Franks gear or not.  Since I'm not an engineer, nor a math wiz, that type of information would tell me little about whether a "product" is worthwhile or not.   I have a much better tool for that, called my ears, and my experience with listening to music and gear.   I have used these cords in several components.  To a component they have all improved in clarity, dynamic range, smoothness, and soundstaging once the Sahuaro cord was connected.   I have tried many levels of wiring in my rig, and this is the first time where I noticed a "significant" difference in audio quality.  This is the first wire product I have ever been excited about enough to recommend.    As much as I respect Frank's work and experience in the field, his evaluation of this product is based on generalizations about the nature of the product class, as he has had experience with, not an actual examination of the Sahuaro product.   Since anyone can buy this product with a two week return policy, I see no risk involved in exploring a new concept design for power cords, such as this is.   Of course it's much easier to keep saying "the world is flat", why risk the exploration when you know you'll just fall to your death off the edge of the world

[Beezer]

The customer may always be right, but not in this case (how's that for a Yogi-ism!).  If you look at it from the perspective of Frank's business, he's doing his best to serve the (vast?) majority of his customers.  In reality, what percentage of his customers are clamoring for a detachable powercord - 1%, 5%, 20%?  If it's the smaller numbers, then why bother raising the cost of the amp, even if it's only $50.  

Perhaps your questions should be, can it be offered as an option?  And Frank's question back to you should be, how much would you be willing to pay for it?  If you tell him it's worth $200 to you, then maybe he investigates the possibility assuming you're not the only one.

Beez

[jackman]

The problem is this. Without an IEC connection there's no way to test whether the cords I own will have a benefit with Franks gear or not. Since I'm not an engineer, nor a math wiz, that type of information would tell me little about whether a "product" is worthwhile or not. I have a much better tool for that, called my ears, and my experience with listening to music and gear. I have used these cords in several components. To a component they have all improved in clarity, dynamic range, smoothness, and soundstaging once the Sahuaro cord was connected. I have tried many levels of wiring in my rig, and this is the first time where I noticed a "significant" difference in audio quality. This is the first wire product I have ever been excited about enough to recommend. As much as I respect Frank's work and experience in the field, his evaluation of this product is based on generalizations about the nature of the product class, as he has had experience with, not an actual examination of the Sahuaro product. Since anyone can buy this product with a two week return policy, I see no risk involved in exploring a new concept design for power cords, such as this is. Of course it's much easier to keep saying "the world is flat", why risk the exploration when you know you'll just fall to your death off the edge of the world

I have a suggestion.  If you are concerned with absolute performance, just try another amp with your high-$$$ power cord and compare it to a comparably priced AVA amp.  For the money you spent on those cords, you could try a mid-priced amp and compare it to the top of the line Fetvalve 550EX (with it's plain cord).  Just buy the one that sounds better.  If your expensive cord can make an inexpensive or midpriced amp sound better than the Fetvalve (I doubt it...) then buy it and report your findings on this site.  

Frank could probably make a lot more money by offering expensive power cords (heck, ones that are cryo'd, bybeed, snake oiled, whatever...) but he chooses not to because, in his experience, he has not found them to improve his designs.  They may sound different and, if you just paid $500-1000 for one you may find this difference an improvement, however, Frank may not agree.  I admire his honesty and the way he sticks to his principals (principles?).  There are too many manufacturers who are all too willing to spout unscientific BS if it helps sell their overpriced products.  Frank is not one of them.

Jack

[John B]

just try another amp with your high-$$$ power cord and compare it to a comparably priced AVA amp.

Been there, done that  AVA 350EX hybrid tube amp vs Butler 5150 hybrid tube amp.  With standard cord on the Butler the 350ex edged it out in almost every sonic category.   With the Sahuaro cord, the Butler 5150 blossomed into a much more dynamic and musically rich amp.  I won't say it beat the 350EX handily at that point, but to my ears it was more open and the more musical combination.   I so wanted to compare 350EX with the Sahuaro cord vs the 5150 with the cord, but no such flexiblity was available with the 350EX.  

Frank's re-tooling costs vs his typical customer's interest in an IEC connection is a more reasonable argument against the use of an aftermarket cord on AVA gear,  than saying it can't improve the sound because all expensive powercords are snakeoil.   So let's leave it at that, and just go enjoy the music

[Tyson]

I talked to someone once about adding an IEC connector to my amp, and he said it was a bad idea, and that IEC's were best avoided if at all possible, as they are merely average (at best) as a connector.  Much better to wire it directly to the transformer.  If you really want a better power cord, just send the amp off to one of the aftermarket tweakers (there are a few on this board), and they'll be happy to wire it in directy for you I'm sure.

As for me, I'm sending in my stock-power-corded 550ex for the regulated power supply upgrade, and am totally stoked to hear the improvements that Frank has been talking about!

[jackman]

The power cord is simply the last 5 feet of several hundred feet of primary transformer winding wire, why you people are so obcessed with fiddly ass ding dong nonsense when that is simply not where the problems are is way beyond me.

We engineer a new power supply that lets our hybrid circuits simply knock you thru the back wall with dynamics and what you really want is a different power cord? Geeze!

I believe this is why Frank doesn't want to mess with removeable power cords, he'd rather put his time into things that make more of a difference and can be scientifically measured.   If he believed exotic power cords made a difference on his designs, he would put IEC connectors on his gear.   I don't think we are talking about major re-tooling.  He could probably slap together some garden hose thick cords and charge a grand for them as an option, there seems to be no shortage of people who will buy into unscientific hype.  

If you like your power cord and are happy with your purchase, I am happy for you.   No one can tell you what sounds better to you.   I'll spend my money on things that I think are important like the upgraded power supply AVA just developed.   Enjoy the music.

Jman

[Marbles]

Tyson,

Have you ever thought of sending Frank a Nitro PC to have him install it while he's doing the upgrade?

[guest1632]

I have a suggestion.  If you are concerned with absolute performance, just try another amp with your high-$$$ power cord and compare it to a comparably priced AVA amp.  For the money you spent on those cords, you could try a mid-priced amp and compare it to the top of the line Fetvalve 550EX (with it's plain cord).  Just buy the one that sounds better.  If your expensive cord can make an inexpensive or midpriced amp sound better than the Fetvalve (I doubt it...) then buy it and report your findings on this  ...

[guest1632]

I have a suggestion.  If you are concerned with absolute performance, just try another amp with your high-$$$ power cord and compare it to a comparably priced AVA amp.  For the money you spent on those cords, you could try a mid-priced amp and compare it to the top of the line Fetvalve 550EX (with it's plain cord).  Just buy the one that sounds better.  If your expensive cord can make an inexpensive or midpriced amp sound better than the Fetvalve (I doubt it...) then buy it and report your findings on this  ...

[HChi]

I guess both camps have valid points.  I guess we may have to perceive and accept this belief or 'intrinsic shortcoming' that the designer chooses to impose.  If my memory serves me right, all the newer Krell FPB,  FPB monos,  and MRA also come with a fixed power cord.   Frank has been honest and upfront in stating his reasoning of 'insisting' the use of a fix power cord. If a user prefers an IEC in a fix cord design, he/she will need to take the chance of voiding the warranty and have the mod done themselves or by others.  Just curious, has any of you ever interested in Krell FPB series and ask Krell why a fix power cord approach is chosen?

[John B]

Fixed power cords have always been a sign of mid-fi gear, or at least that's the impression one gets when one births from mid-fi land into the world of high end separates.    And it's not just fixed power cords, Frank also doesn't have balanced ouput connections on his pre-amps and amps, another departure from the more high-end designs.  Now I have absolutely no opinion on the benefits of balanced connections, never had them..until...my new amp arrives in a couple of weeks; I've ordered a set of 5 of these balance cables to check it out with.  

I think of Frank as a minimalist, working with the canvas he feels best displays his electronic creations; and in that, I'm actually rather pleased he didn't sway into any of my arguements for "adding" non-minimalist ideas to his work.   The truth be told, Frank's gear is some of the finest audio components I've ever heard.   I've heard of ton of systems, my own which is in a constant state of flux, and many others at friends, stores, and shows.   On the home front I find myself upgrading into whole new system configurations seemingly every 6 months.  This because I truly love our hobby, and am on a quest to hear designs that sound like they're pushing the envelope of audio reproduction.  I don't think I'd want to see Frank change too much, what makes him unique is he sticks to his guns and keeps focused on his vision, not ours.   He's the definition of a true artist, he creates for himself and then we come up with our "entrance fee" we get to share in the fun of it all.   More power to you Frank, keep up the great work.

[guest1632]

Fixed power cords have always been a sign of mid-fi gear, or at least that's the impression one gets when one births from mid-fi land into the world of high end separates.    And it's not just fixed power cords, Frank also doesn't have balanced ouput connections on his pre-amps and amps, another departure from the more high-end designs.  Now I have absolutely no opinion on the benefits of balanced connections, never had them..until...my new amp arrives in a couple of weeks; I've ordered a set of 5 of these  ...

[vulcanaudio]

Frank is definitely old school. Sometimes different wire choices make minimal lateral changes. However sometimes the difference is profound. I remember well listening to omega mikro power cord and comparing with esp reference. Both these cords will give you a completely different presentation. Its up to the user to decide. How can it cost more to install an iec socket than a full generic power cord ? Let users have the choice

[avahifi]

All new AVA electronics built in the last several years have standard IEC AC sockets taking plug-in three conductor power cords.

With these you can use any power cord you want although we are dubious of claims that this makes any musical difference at all.

It probably is not musically or economically useful to hack up the back panel of older equipment to install a iEC socket.

Frank

[avahifi_lj]

FYI:  We replaced captive power cords with IEC AC power jacks back in 2011.

Larry