Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question

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Lopez

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« on: 3 Sep 2004, 10:06 pm »
So - I've got an XR25 that I use for h/t and I think it's great.  I am looking into picking up an XR10 for biamping a pair of stereo speakers in my 2-channel system.  So I'm reading through the manual I downloaded to make sure it meets all my needs and I noticed that in all the dsp modes there's a minimum 10ms delay for the surround speaker outputs.  As far as I can tell from the manual, this applies to the 'Party' mode that everyone is so fond of using for biamping their stereo gear.

So - is this the case with all of the XR-models? (edit - according to the 25/45 manual, this is the case with those models too).  And does anyone who uses one of these for biamping stereo speakers care that your bass and treble are 10ms out of phase (or 50ms if you haven't changed the default - according to the manual).  Should I care?  What would Mr. Vandersteen or Mr. Dahlquist say about this?  :wink:

rha61

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #1 on: 4 Sep 2004, 09:34 am »
Hi

in party mode , the saxr adds a little echo of the signal  at 10ms on the four channels
Also , the bandwidth is not linear on the front channels , +6dB at 20Hz !
To access to the biamplification with the saxr series ( not the saxr70 ) you have to do a little tweak in the signal routing

Alain

daveric

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #2 on: 12 Sep 2004, 04:15 am »
:nono: In 'Party'  mode there IS a 10ms  delay active between the rear and front chs.
I (and othes i know) have tried biamping using the Pannys front and rear chs in  party mode but it is NOTgreat,  this  10ms delay is audible and cannot be defeated.

 The only way to biamp with the Panny is to use two of them  by feeding them both the same digital input and using one remote for both volumes.
 Some careful setting up of menus is needed too  :wink:

Ears

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #3 on: 24 Sep 2004, 01:12 pm »
I agree, the only way to truely bi amp whith the Pany, is to use two.
Using two is a much bigger leap in sonic quality than using party mode.

Neild

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Re: Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #4 on: 29 Jan 2005, 10:14 pm »
Quote from: Lopez
So - I've got an XR25 that I use for h/t and I think it's great.  I am looking into picking up an XR10 for biamping a pair of stereo speakers in my 2-channel system.  So I'm reading through the manual I downloaded to make sure it meets all my needs and I noticed that in all the dsp modes there's a minimum 10ms delay for the surround speaker outputs.  As far as I can tell from the manual, this applies to the 'Party' mode that everyone is so fond of using for biamping their stereo gear.

So - is this the ca ...


I'd have thought the delay would be variable based on the speaker distances input to the menu?  It is possible the manual is describing the spec for maximum delay for when you set large speaker distances?

tex-amp

Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #5 on: 1 Feb 2005, 02:33 am »
Anyone tried the all channels stereo mode on the JVC RX-F10?

jkeny

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #6 on: 1 Feb 2005, 02:04 pm »
If you are using digital filter software on a PC to create a tweeter and woofer signal for each channel - does this create a spdif signal with 4 channels ?

Feed this to panny and multichannel is use dto connect to the tweeters and woofers of speakers?

Am I talking rubbish?

John

Horizons

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #7 on: 1 Feb 2005, 06:08 pm »
Quote from: tex-amp
Anyone tried the all channels stereo mode on the JVC RX-F10?

I am using four channels to drive the biwire connections on the Maggie 1.6QRs. My next project is to insert low level (line) passive crossovers before the amp stages and bypass the high level crossovers in the Maggies.

As is now the F10 drives the Maggies incredibly well using both the front and surround channels. It should take another giant leap forward using the low level crossovers which will be a true bi-amp setup.

rhart

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #8 on: 9 Feb 2005, 07:19 pm »
I've been looking over the xr45 manual, and it does seem that "party mode" MAY incorporate a delay. However, I have some concerns about this:

1. If this is true, would it only apply to the digital input? When using the DVD, 6 channel input the manual states that  speaker settings are ineffective (page 18 ). So, for example, Newform Research's use of the 6 channel dvd analog input is an effective way to bi-amp without adding this delay. Of course this means using the xr45's a/d converstion.

Basically, one would have to decide whether the direct digital connection with "basic" amplication is better than using the 6 channel analog input in bi-amp/party mode.

2. If this delay is indeed present in the "party mode," then the original idea to have stereo sound in all directions would be defeated. For example, if one were to do this, the front right and surround would be at least 10ms off. In other words, having the right front speaker at your left and the back surround at your right would not result in a "normal" stereo experience since there would be delay. Wouldn't the Pannisonic engineers be fully aware of this, and remove the delay for "party mode"? I know errors can be made in programming, but this would seem kind of wierd. In short, maybe this concern about a delay is really just part and parcel of the crappy mannual.

I have yet to try the bi-amp with my XR45, but I am currious about those who have. Some say the delay is audible, while others -- The Bolder Cable crew, for example -- seem to be bi-amping WITH the digital connection without any perceived delay (or so it seems since I haven't read about a delay in the Bolder circle). Indeed, Bolder Cable's mods seem predicated on the bi-amp feature of the "party mode" xr45 while also highly recommending using the digital input.

Anybody have further comments on this? I'm feeling kind of optimistic, so I'm leaning toward beleiveing that the mannual is a bit misleading and poorly written.

jkeny

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Speaker delay test
« Reply #9 on: 14 Feb 2005, 03:53 pm »
Can somebody who has one of these panny receivers do a definitive test

Using Party Mode and just one channel of analog or digital input, connect a speaker to main left and another speaker to surrond left channel.

Now by varying the delay between speakers the sound should be noticeably different. If there is no difference then time delay does not operate in this mode. If there is a difference it should be more noticeable going from 10ms to  max delay.

Anybody care to try and report back?

rhart

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #10 on: 14 Feb 2005, 09:27 pm »
Okay, I finally got a chance to test this. I tried and tried and...could NOT find any way to create or hear the purported delay (from 10ms to 50ms). So, I guess in party mode the surround delay is not in effect (as Wayne and friends have been claiming all along...).

jkeny

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #11 on: 15 Feb 2005, 09:28 am »
Rhart,
That's great - could you now test with speaker delay enabled in some other mode just to see that you can hear the difference?

Good work
John

rhart

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Panasonic Party-Mode biamp question
« Reply #12 on: 15 Feb 2005, 04:43 pm »
Hi John,

In all other modes the delay is audible.