[SteveFord]

Gentlemen/Ladies,
I'm not sure if this post belongs here or in the digital section.
I have a pretty good sized collection of albums, the majority of which were played once as I taped them on an old Nakamichi deck.  
Now that cassettes are on their way out, I guess that it's time to transfer the music to CDs.  
So - what to use and what to do?
My stereo stuff is all pretty decent (Dual, Carver, Magnepan) and I'd like to end up with CDs that sound as good as possible.
Thanks in advance,
Steve Ford
P.S.
I'm not looking to start a vinyl vs cd argument!

[DeadFish]

Hi Steve!
I'm coming from the same place as you.  Cassetted the vinyl on first listen and put it away.  I got into cds when the vinyl disappeared from the stores.
AND in that interest, I looked into transfering my 'stuff' and was boggled at that chase.  Plugged into a group on Yahoo, that discusses ALL of the hardwre and software variations the folks there use to get the transfer done.  Another case of the 'means' becoming the subject though... such as which soundcard is best, and software...etc.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheVinylSolutionDiscussionGroup/
You can sign on for daily updates.
As for me, I was just never all that impressed with many copies I listened to from other people, and didn't have the time to devote to another 'hobby' (and moneyhole).
I've still got cassette in the car, but I mostly listen to the music in my head, rathr than poor reproduction.  Sure seems like it sounded great not all that long ago, though...  You having your Nak deck, you know what I mean about having chased the best you could put on cassette, and at the time, that wasn't all that bad....
Not much help, save the link, am I?  
I've still got a 'thing' for vinyl and listen to it when possible.  Especially when I want something 'eclectic' to put on.  
I don't want to be obsessed with the work it would take to put every 'eclectic' thing on cd, and then trying to get it to sound right.
Good luck though! I just got beat up by the idea once I realized how far I would chase *that* to get it decent.  Gettin' too old for TOO many chases anymore....   Tilting at windmills....
Best Regards,
DeadFish

[YoungDave]

I would definitely stay as far away as I could get from any scheme involving a computer.  They don't have the quality of a good dedicated cd burner.

Also, bear in mind that CD's you burn at home are made differently than manufactured CD's.  The manufacturer molds or machines the holes that carry the signal in the aluminum disk substrate - you will be burning those holes into a blank disk.  Consequently, not all home-made CD's will play on any CD player.

From my personal experience I recommend an HHB burner.  I use a HHB  model CDR 830.  You can get them for around $500.

I only burn them for my car.  At home I listen to vinyl.  It is the heart of my rig.

[Tonto Yoder]

There are tutorials available on the web--
http://www.ganymede.hemscott.net/tutorial.htm

You'll use your turntable and the phono section of your Carver, with a patch cord from the tape out to the line input of the computer soundcard.
You may well need some software to make the transfer easier/possible (I've never done this, so it's all just hearsay.)

[Rob Babcock]

I disagree that a computer solution is inferior.  I've owned & used several standalone CD recorders and have found they give no better result than a good PC based rig.  The PC has an enormous advantage in flexibility & power over almost any standalone unit you can find (certainly any reasonable priced model).  Few component type recorders have extensive editing capabilities.  Of course, if you don't already have a PC, buying one just for recording would be expensive.  Still, since you're posting this on an internet forum, I'm assuming you have a PC.

I've burned CD-Rs almost beyond counting, using several scores of brands & types.  It's true that the very cheapest data-grade blanks sometimes won't work properly in a consumer CD player (or even the drive they were recorded on for that matter).  However, I've never had even a single instance of a disc burned onto quality media failing to play in a standard CD player.  I'm talking over a thousand CD-Rs played back on dozens upon dozens of different CD & DVD players, some of them well over 15 years old.

It is true, however, that the useful lifespan of a CD-R can be quite variable.  Certain brands are more durable than others, as are certain types of dyes.  Storage conditions will affect longevity to a great degree, too.  For maximum life, you must avoid extremes of temperature & direct exposure to sunlight.  Phthalocyanine is much more stable and resistant to light than regular cyanine or Azo dyes, but it's a bit "harder" to record, meaning not all drives can burn them, and sometimes not at extremely high speed.

If you go with a standalone consumer recorder, be advised that media will be a bit more expensive, and you'll be more limited with respect to variety.  I'd advise you avoid Memorex discs- many here have had problems with them.  Over the last couple years I've experienced the failure of many older Memorex disc; in some the dye has faded completely (even though they were stored properly) and in a couple instances the disc physically failed, flaking apart!

I now use Mitsui discs almost exclusively, keeping a stash of  Pro Disc & Taiyo Yuden discs for "disposable" use.  Mitsui is used by many major libraries, including the Library of Congress, and their discs are top notch.  The do cost a little bit more, though.

[Tonto Yoder]

One further thought:  isn't learning about the process of recording from some external source worthwhile even if it's NOT vinyl???  Recently, I listened to Prarie Home Companion on the radio when Gillian Welch appeared--it'd be nice to have a CD-R of that show to play in the car or on a boombox or in Real Player's library. Or to copy the audio of a concert DVD or the audio of a TV show like Austin City Limits.

What seperates the transfer of vinyl from other sources is just the need for a phono preamp and the possible need to get rid of pops and clicks????

[SteveFord]

Thanks for your replies - it gave me a lot of food for thought and after doing quite a bit of research, I decided to buy an HHB 830 BurnIt Plus.
After buying the software, upgraded memory for the PC and a decent soundcard plus having the pooter in a different room than the stereo only to find that it maybe didn't work out very well, a stand alone unit made the most sense.
Bit surprising to find out how wretched most CD Recorders are; I would have chosen a Phillips if it wasn't for the information on the internet.
Thanks again,
Steve Ford
P.S.
Bites how cassettes are going the way of the 8 track.  Speaking of biting, where the hell did I put my teeth?

[SteveFord]

Seeing as how my CD burner is en route, could someone recommend the best source for Mitsui CDs and possibly Maxell cassette tapes?
I like to buy stuff like that a hundred at a time as the cost is usually lower.
Thanks
Steve Ford

[Mag]

Tranferring Lps or Cassettes I use a program called Data Becker Music CD Recorder. There are better programs, but what makes this good is its ease of use. For cassettes you would use the same option that you would an LP.  You can record a single song or batches, but I have to confess that I never could get the batch mode to work for me.  Once a song is recorded you can then edit it in the wave editor, filtering out clicks and pops etc.. This takes some practice as too much filtering can add a sound of its own.  You can then burn a copy using the Data Becker program or saving it to Hard drive and use another.
       I believe they have a web site if interested.

[coffeedj]

My techique may not work for others, because it requires a computer to play back, but it does go most of the way toward saving a "listenable" copy.  
 
Here is a copy of a post I made elsewhere that explains what I mean:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
....  I was mod'ing a 300B SET amp for a guy and plugged it in to listen to the results.  I had just scored a bunch of records at an estate sale, including two identical DG copies of Sebelius and Karajan.  One of the albums was still plastic wrapped with the 1975 date on the sticker.  The other was opened, but clearly new--and it had the "DIGITALLY MASTERED: ULTRA QUIET" monikor plastered on the front and back.  

I put it on and thought what did I do to those amps---this sounds like crap!!!  So I pulled out my reference amps: Tucker Exempler Audio 45 using my RadTel circa -30's 45 tubes: and turned it back on.  Same CRAP--sounded like a CD.  I spent more money than I could possibly afford on a turntable just to get away from this sound, so I broke the new seal on the analog original.  

And the beauty was back--I could see Der Schwan von Tuonela gliding mystically across the lake.   To be fair the Digital record did sound more quiet, but at what cost!!!

Unfortunately, CD sampling technology is mortally flawed, and no CD upgrade can fix the basic problem. which is that sampling rate is a minimum of four times to slow.  There is an excellent MIT article which goes through the math for time varying signals, based on the final word size (16 bits for CD's).  The number is about 8X or 160KHz sampling is minimum required to correctly reproduce 20KHz music.  You can play games with filters to fix the jagged edgy sound, but it doesn't return the music that was lost.  

The reality is that even with surface hiss, rumble, tonearm microphonics, cleaning machines, etc., vinyl is worth listening to because it sounds like the original music.  CD's are great for cars and airplanes, but not for critical listening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To preserve my Vinyl I record through an external Echo Audio Layla 24/96 digitizer, at 96KHz, and save it directly to my hard drive.  Note--the digital information is saved, but not as a standard time variant standard digitial signal (rather is it run length encoded).  Thus the digital jitter from cables is not an issue.  The Layla is now fairly cheap because Echo has a new model so people are dumping it on Ebay.  

To play back I have to go through the Layla and into my system--you can't save or play back high sample rate digital CD's (with exception of playing the new SACD et. al technology--but I don't know of any commercial programs to do that for your own system.)  

So I can't take the music with me unless I want to cripple it with a CD conversion step, but I can preserve my Vinyl.  Note: If you want to make a CD as well then digitize at 88.2 KHz so that your CD burning software won't totally screw up the conversion.  They can do a 2 to 1 decimation, but any odd mulitplier of 44.1Khz will be trashed unless you have studio quality software.  And you have to make sure you randomly dither the 2 least significant bits or you will get clustering errors and the CD sound is back with vengence.

If you can't do any of those things, cut your CD directly from the analog record.  Don't play with digitial filters, volume, etc.  Every digital mastering steps adds errors to the digital sampled data.

[Tonto Yoder]

Thanks for your replies - it gave me a lot of food for thought and after doing quite a bit of research, I decided to buy an HHB 830 BurnIt Plus.
 ...

Hope that works out well for you.  An alternative might have been the Alesis Masterlink that Michael Fremer raves about.  It's a professional unit, but Fremer notes its audiophile uses in his review.  If you don't need CD's that you can play elsewhere, you could record 20 minutes CD24's for best fidelity. These units seem to be going for $800 now.

[timkeeler]

Seeing as how my CD burner is en route, could someone recommend the best source for Mitsui CDs and possibly Maxell cassette tapes?
I like to buy stuff like that a hundred at a time as the cost is usually lower.
Thanks
Steve Ford

I highly recommend Cascade Media for the Mitsui (or HHb) discs (no association, just a long time customer).  A good, cheaper alternative are the Taiyo Yuden discs.  Fuji discs that are made in Japan (not Taiwan) are TY discs and are frequently available on sale at Best Buy.  To the best of my knowledge, TY discs can't be used on stand-alone recorders.

http://www.cascade-media.net/

[Carlman]

Amazon.com has TY and Mitsui or 'MAM' recordable CD's.

[SteveFord]

If anyone's interested, this is a REALLY good unit.  It's easy to use, the CDs sound great on my system (no golden ears here, just ringing ones) and it's just so nice to rediscover my album collection again.