Omega compared to Frugelhorn MK3

Ultralight · « **on:** 19 Apr 2015, 02:33 pm »

Hope it is OK to post here since I see others inquiring about other brands vs Omega. (i.e. KEF LS50...)

Anyways, anyone compared the Frugelhorn MK3 with the Alpair 7.3 to any of the Omegas? The Alpair 7.3 are highly regarded drivers. I realize that Frugelhorn is DIY, and its efficiency is lower than Omega. Both however are full range with all the attendant advantages, and for the smaller driver versions of Omega, the Frugelhorn should have lower bass extension.

Thanks!

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Apr 2015, 06:17 pm »

Quote from: Ultralight on 19 Apr 2015, 02:33 pm

Hope it is OK to post here since I see others inquiring about other brands vs Omega. (i.e. KEF LS50...)

Anyways, anyone compared the Frugelhorn MK3 with the Alpair 7.3 to any of the Omegas? The Alpair 7.3 are highly regarded drivers. I realize that Frugelhorn is DIY, and its efficiency is lower than Omega. Both however are full range with all the attendant advantages, and for the smaller driver versions of Omega, the Frugelhorn should have lower bass extension.

Thanks!

Seems Omega factory do only BR, so comparisons between Bass Reflex and horns are of little use.

steve f · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Apr 2015, 07:29 am »

Actually most "horns" really aren't. Outside of open baffle, you can have a speaker with or without a hole. Those with various holes have very similar types of performance.

JLM · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Apr 2015, 11:37 am »

Types of speaker designs (everything else is a combination of the following):

Aperiodic (semi-sealed cabinet)

Array (vertical line of identical drivers to provide 2 dimensional dispersion)

Bipole (like Omega 3XRS Bipole wired in "traditional out of phase")

Dipole (open baffle, planner, or Omega Outlaw open back or 3XRS Bipole wired in-phase)

Horn (front loaded like a megaphone or rear loaded with compression chamber and relatively large cabinet with expanding throat suited for low Qts drivers)

Infinite Baffle (driver mounted directly into the wall with large space behind acting as the front half of an open baffle)

Omni Directional (upward firing conventional driver or open downward firing cone using a cabinet of some sort, check Louis' recent "what's new at Omega" posting)

Pipe (driver near large/open end with far end sealed, otherwise known as Tuned Quarter Wave Pipe or Voigt Pipe)

Ported (driver in a simple chamber with a relatively stubby tube opening)

Sealed (driver in sealed chamber like Omega subwoofers)

Transmission Line (driver near large closed end with far end typically open)

Did I miss any?

The conceptual basis for each type differs and of course examples of varying of success can be found. Martin King, using a MathCad application, has in recent years finally developed an all encompassing theory to explain/design various speaker types, including the typical skinny floor-standing designs with ports near the floor that behave more like poorly designed transmission lines than simple ported cabinets. Just because it called a moose doesn't mean it's a moose, many (customers, vendors, and even manufacturers) fool themselves into thinking that just because the cabinet has a hole and is called "ported" that is behaves like a ported design.

Different driver parameters (such as Qts or Xmax) indicate the optimal cabinet type. High Qts and Xmax would be best in open baffles. Low Qts and Xmax would be best in horns. The Flugelhorn Mk3 would best be classified IMO as a Pipe, and yes both the Alpair drivers and Dave (Planet 10) are respected. Note also that the Alpair 7.3 come in metal or paper (that Dave can EnABL treat), so there are 4 possible variations in the driver. Your question UL is very open (apples vs oranges on multiple levels) and so near impossible to address without a side by side audition.

Ultralight · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Apr 2015, 02:19 pm »

Thanks everyone. And JLM, as has been in the past, appreciate your extended reply.

And yes, I was hoping to hear from someone who may have auditioned both. I'm not as concerned about the design - just the audio qualities.

Thanks!

Quote from: JLM on 20 Apr 2015, 11:37 am

Types of speaker designs (everything else is a combination of the following):

Aperiodic (semi-sealed cabinet)

Array (vertical line of identical drivers to provide 2 dimensional dispersion)

Bipole (like Omega 3XRS Bipole wired in "traditional out of phase")

Dipole (open baffle, planner, or Omega Outlaw open back or 3XRS Bipole wired in-phase)

Horn (front loaded like a megaphone or rear loaded with compression chamber and relatively large cabinet with expanding throat suited for low Qts drivers)

Infinite Baffle (driver mounted directly into the wall with large space behind acting as the front half of an open baffle)

Omni Directional (upward firing conventional driver or open downward firing cone using a cabinet of some sort, check Louis' recent "what's new at Omega" posting)

Pipe (driver near large/open end with far end sealed, otherwise known as Tuned Quarter Wave Pipe or Voigt Pipe)

Ported (driver in a simple chamber with a relatively stubby tube opening)

Sealed (driver in sealed chamber like Omega subwoofers)

Transmission Line (driver near large closed end with far end typically open)

Did I miss any?

The conceptual basis for each type differs and of course examples of varying of success can be found. Martin King, using a MathCad application, has in recent years finally developed an all encompassing theory to explain/design various speaker types, including the typical skinny floor-standing designs with ports near the floor that behave more like poorly designed transmission lines than simple ported cabinets. Just because it called a moose doesn't mean it's a moose, many (customers, vendors, and even manufacturers) fool themselves into thinking that just because the cabinet has a hole and is called "ported" that is behaves like a ported design.

Different driver parameters (such as Qts or Xmax) indicate the optimal cabinet type. High Qts and Xmax would be best in open baffles. Low Qts and Xmax would be best in horns. The Flugelhorn Mk3 would best be classified IMO as a Pipe, and yes both the Alpair drivers and Dave (Planet 10) are respected. Note also that the Alpair 7.3 come in metal or paper (that Dave can EnABL treat), so there are 4 possible variations in the driver. Your question UL is very open (apples vs oranges on multiple levels) and so near impossible to address without a side by side audition.

doorman · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Apr 2015, 02:29 pm »

I've hear a pair of Omegas, but too long ago to be useful.
Having built several pairs of "Frugelhorns" and heard many pairs of Alpair 7.3's in most of the existing cabinet designs available, this combination can be very satisfying. As always, you pick the compromises you can live with.
The $$'s req'd to build a pair aren't excessive, giving them a try might surprise.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Apr 2015, 02:46 pm »

I've always had issue with BLH (back loaded horn) cabinets causing the bass to sound disjointed with the rest of the music, the only ones I really like are the Lamhorn and Voxativ. That said the Frugelhorn does not look like it has a very long path so it may not suffer from this issue.

I think it is interesting that when the Feastrex line of single drivers was introduced some years ago they (as well as other speaker designers) tried building all sorts of fancy BLH type cabs for them and none of them sounded good imo... the best cab they had was a simple BR (bass reflex) cab and now all these BLH type cabs have disappeared. I think a simple BR speaker cabinet is the best way to go...

Canada Rob · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Apr 2015, 03:46 pm »

There are a lot of single driver speakers out there, mostly DIY, but quite a few production ones too, and almost all of them are nowhere near as efficient as Omegas. This difference is, in part, what separates Omega from the pack - their high efficiency. They can be run with ease on flea/low power, be it Tube or SS. I have found over many years (as a general rule) that the lower the power, the more musical and dynamic the amplifier. The downside of these low powered amps is there is still not a lot of truly efficient speakers out there to work with them. When you put Omegas with these amplifiers, it's an incredible sounding marriage (as many are discovering) that makes 2 watts sound like 40 watts and where one can hear what these amps are really capable of.

The other half of the story is that Omega speakers are in themselves a superior speaker regardless of amplification and can outperform speakers many times their price, not to mention their legendary build quality. Both cabinet and driver are Omega, made in the USA, a rare thing today when most speaker companies are using off the shelf drivers or taking off the shelf drivers and "modding" them so they can call them their own. A top amplifier designer commented that he couldn't figure out how Louis could design a 4.5" (actual cone diameter is 3-1/8") driver that is 94.5 dB efficient. The RS5 driver has 2 patents on it, and is unique (to my knowledge) on this planet.

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Apr 2015, 05:34 pm »

The Frugalhorn has no apparent compression chamber and with Qts of 0.5 the Alpair 7.3 would not be well suited for horn loading anyway), so I believe the name (and the rear swooping props) are misleading. I heard Cain & Cain Abby (another "pipe") at the 2003 Midwest Audio Fest (where I heard Omega back when Louis used Fostex drivers). It was a very pleasant sounding speaker in a medium sized room, at least for the small ensemble jazz being played.

Yes, long back loaded horns do suffer from excessive bass frequency delay.

Don't recall the Qts/Xmax of the Feastrex (were too expensive to hold my interest) but do recall that they were quite efficient. Over the years have seen cabinet type fads come and go (folks trying to fit every driver they came across into a particular cabinet type) with the design lessons of the past being forgotten along the way. Unless copying a past design or just get lucky, poorly understood designs are usually poor performing (like all those skinny floor-standers with low ports I mentioned above).