Tube int amplifier cap upgrade

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 4008 times.

andycsb

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 116
Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« on: 7 Aug 2015, 09:23 pm »
Hello Everyone,

Newbie here and would like to know if upgrading power supply capacitors will generally yield a significant change in sonic character (for the better...I hope) of a tube int amplifier. As significant a change as tube rolling? Thanks.

Quiet Earth

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1788
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #1 on: 7 Aug 2015, 11:09 pm »
The short answer is yes. 

But I think it depends on what caps you already have inside of your integrated and what constitutes an improvement vs. a change. A good place to start rolling is any cathode bypass capacitor. I like Elna Silmic 2 in that spot, or BlackGate if you can get them. (Out of production.)

If you are changing out rectifier capacitors make sure that you keep the same low value of capacitance to avoid arcing issues. In other words, don't put a 470 uF cap where you should only have 4 uF, or 34 uF, or 68uF.

Then there are all of the other power supply locations...... where to begin?

I think the hardest part of cap rolling is determining where you have made a real improvement rather than just a change. But that is up to you to decide. That's part of the fun of it. I think that having a very good power supply is more important than having the very best or the very rarest of tubes. In other words, if the amp is made very well you will be happy with almost any tube brand that you pick for a certain location. So you stop jonesing for the holy grail of unobtainable tubes. Just my opinion. (ymmv)

FullRangeMan

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 20042
  • To whom more was given more will be required.
    • Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a straycat or dog. On the street they live only two years average.
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #2 on: 8 Aug 2015, 12:13 am »
There is many types and uF values of caps.
I would change the original amp caps only when they get old.
If the in use caps are new yet what to do with them after the change?
It would be a loss.

JakeJ

Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #3 on: 8 Aug 2015, 01:16 am »
Sage advice, QE.  I would also like to remind our readers that if you have an original cap with a rating of 20 uF @ 400 Volts then you should not change the 20 uF part up or down but you can use a 20 uF 500 Volt cap whereas you cannot use a 20 uF 350 Volt cap.  OK? Capisce?

andycsb

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 116
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #4 on: 9 Aug 2015, 04:48 pm »
@QuietEarth, FullRangeMan, JakeJ...Thanks guys for your advise. Anyone of you guys have any experience with Mndorf S/G/O vs Duelun Alexander Copper Foil? Seeking the fuller, richer and softer relaxed treble of the 2. Wish to avoid a hot top end at all cost.

Thanks

DaveC113

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 4344
  • ZenWaveAudio.com
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #5 on: 9 Aug 2015, 05:11 pm »
Caps make a massive difference in tube amps, one thing that's nice about tubes is the PS (power supply) caps don't need to be so large value and you can get rid of electrolytic caps entirely. In the PS the final caps make the largest difference and many times their value isn't critical but they usually form a RC filter so you want to make sure you keep the filter freq far outside the audio band. The 1st cap in a PS is more critical in value, try to match that value as close as possible, but this cap makes less of an audible difference vs the final caps. For PS caps by far the best choice is Clarity TC caps, the difference vs electrolytic caps is night and day, these caps have less internal resistance by a few orders of magnitude! The difference in speed and dynamics is immediately obvious.

Cathode bypass caps make a pretty big difference too, usually it's not feasible to get rid of the electrolytics here but you can add a film cap in parallel. For this application the Clarity ESA or MR would be the way to go, the ESA 250V caps are very small for film caps and not too expensive. I use a 1.5 uF Clarity ESA 250V as bypass here.

Coupling caps may make the biggest difference, for this copper foil caps are the best I've used and I suggest Jupiter for this application. I don't think the Mundorf caps even come close and I have not tried Duelund but tbh I'd just go with Jupiter, I've compared them to many caps including RelCap copper foil and the Jupiter caps are excellent.

Also worth considering is grid stopper resistors, cathode resistors ans PS resistors. Grid stoppers should be carbon comp, Allen Bradley are still available from PCX but Riken or Amtrans carbon film resistors are a bit more neutral. Carbon comp is the ideal resistor type here but it's not like the Riken or Amtrans won't work, you just want to avoid wirewound as they can actually make things worse than no resistor at all! For cathode and power supply I like Mills wirewound, they are very neutral. If you have Kiwame or other carbon resistors I would be very skeptical, Kiwame are horrible if you actually want fidelity, I wouldn't want those resistors anywhere near one of my amps. If you want a more relaxed sound I'd try Allen Bradley grid stoppers.

Good luck and have fun!


andycsb

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 116
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #6 on: 9 Aug 2015, 06:05 pm »
@DaveC113....Thanks! Any experience with the  Mndorf S/G/O vs Duelun Alexander Copper Foil? Seeking the fuller, richer and softer relaxed treble of the 2. Wish to avoid a hot top end at all cost.

Thanks again.

FullRangeMan

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 20042
  • To whom more was given more will be required.
    • Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a straycat or dog. On the street they live only two years average.
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #7 on: 10 Aug 2015, 02:02 am »
There is a long topic about caps here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0

G Georgopoulos

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1253
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #8 on: 10 Aug 2015, 02:30 am »
Here is the deal

whereever there is high voltage or current the caps age faster!

tube amps have high voltage,so yes,it would be a wise thing to replace with new

i cant give you a time frame,but it would be the right time when you replace the tubes to replace
the ps caps as well...

cheers

DaveC113

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 4344
  • ZenWaveAudio.com
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #9 on: 10 Aug 2015, 03:28 am »
@DaveC113....Thanks! Any experience with the  Mndorf S/G/O vs Duelun Alexander Copper Foil? Seeking the fuller, richer and softer relaxed treble of the 2. Wish to avoid a hot top end at all cost.

Thanks again.

I couldn't compare them, but don't worry too much about achieving a warm sound from passive parts, it'll just reduce resolution. You do want to avoid harshness though, and getting rid of or bypassing electrolytic caps will reduce harshness. Getting rid of cheap brass connectors wherever possible will help a lot too. Tubes add some warmth without as much sacrifice in detail vs trying to warm your system up with passive parts. Or it could be you prefer eq, in that case an eq is the way to go. Broski's Glass Ware store is selling a tilt control, that might be worth checking out...

http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/tilt2control.html

FullRangeMan

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 20042
  • To whom more was given more will be required.
    • Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a straycat or dog. On the street they live only two years average.
Re: Tube int amplifier cap upgrade
« Reply #10 on: 11 Aug 2015, 11:18 am »
Here is the deal

whereever there is high voltage or current the caps age faster!

tube amps have high voltage,so yes,it would be a wise thing to replace with new

i cant give you a time frame,but it would be the right time when you replace the tubes to replace
the ps caps as well...

cheers
At audio amps use caps are know to last about 10 years.