[Joe Frances]

Hello from the new guy,

A lot of people here like SETs and other lower powered tube amps, and so do I.  Right now, I have a hybrid tube integrated from Copland which has served me with my old Meadowlark 87db speakers for over 15 years.  Back then, I bought a small stash of extra 6922s to covered future needs, but so far the NOS Mullard pair in there have gone the distance, which is amazing, and I want to hug this amp.  I might use the Copland (60Watts) with Omegas in the future to see how it matches, but I am also scouting other amps from Leben, Luxman and now Raven, a new company in Texas that I am going to see at the Audio Show in NYC next weekend.  I notice the prices of NOS tubes are going through the roof; and decent power tubes of all types are going up a lot too.  When I bought my amp, and extra tubes it was easy to find good NOS; now it is not so easy.  If I were to buy a Raven integrated, the Nighthawk maybe, it has a lot more tubes; and the reviews for this and other such products make a huge point about the major sound improvement one gets from the amp when the unit is re-shod with NOS versus standard issue tubes.  I have talked to manufacturers, and they have confirmed this. My question: if low/lower powered amps have their "sound" impacted a lot by the quality of tubes, is anyone here worried about the availability of good tubes going forward?  It seems to me with great speakers; and great equipment, in this category, the tubes are a major element of the ability of the whole system to produce soulful sound.  I am concerned that in a few years, or less, there will be little or no good stuff around.  (When I bought the replacement Mullards for my Copland they were about $80 a matched pair; now they are double that, or more.)  Just wondering….this seems like it could be a big issue.  Thannks.

[RDavidson]

That's definitely a concern, but the nice thing about low power SETs is that they don't usually have more than 5-6 tubes, in a stereo amp. If the circuit is properly designed (ie it doesn't burn the tubes hard) then the tubes should last a long time.

[pstrisik]

Welcome Joe!

I think you bring up and important and interesting point about tube availability.  Of course, they are not making them anymore and it seems tube amps are getting increasingly popular.  We also compete with guitarists for those NOS tubes with "tone".

I have an Inspire amp by Dennis Had that uses one driver, two power, and one rectifier.  I have tried a wide range of power tubes and so far have come down to two favorites (Mullard EL34 XF2 and Pope 6V6).  I now have a quad of the Mullards and a pair of the Popes.  I am going to order another pair of Popes, so I will have four sets of power tubes to last me a while.  I have some second tier choices if I ever go through all of those.  The driver that sounds best is actually current production as is the rectifier (Sophia 274B - beat out a NOS Mullard 5AR4).

As much as I love this amp and intend to keep it a very long time, I know that I will likely stray in the future.  Even if I do sooner rather than later, I know the tubes will only increase in value and will be able to recoup money from them.

As far as the future...  as NOS tubes get to be unobtainium, amp designers will probably design more around current production tubes.  And tube manufacturers will likely improve their products - Sophia sounds like an example of that.  Not cheap either though.

Those are my thoughts off the top of my head.

......Peter

[sebrof]

And tube manufacturers will likely improve their products - Sophia sounds like an example of that.  Not cheap either though.

I agree, this is the other side of it. Current production tubes have gotten a lot better as demand has increased. You can get really good new production tubes for not a whole lot of money.

[pstrisik]

I agree, this is the other side of it. Current production tubes have gotten a lot better as demand has increased. You can get really good new production tubes for not a whole lot of money.

It is puzzling why current production tubes mostly haven't been able to match NOS quality.  I'm sure they were cranked out in huge numbers back in the day and we have so much more technological know how these days.  Maybe it's just the economics - not worth the R&D or something.

.......Peter

[beowulf]

It is puzzling why current production tubes mostly haven't been able to match NOS quality.  I'm sure they were cranked out in huge numbers back in the day and we have so much more technological know how these days.  Maybe it's just the economics - not worth the R&D or something.

.......Peter

That's a good point and a whole other area that hasn't been thoroughly capitalized on yet.

[JerryM]

It's pretty easy math, really. Horde all the NOS tubes you can, while you can. That's what I do. It feeds this audio addiction and they're (even if I use them) a commodity, as well. 

Have fun,

Jerry

[weatherman1]

If the tubes are the heart of the sound of your systems what happens when you change speakers and need to roll a new set of tubes to get the sound you want and find that all your NOS won't produce that sweet sound?  Is this a "if it costs more because it's old and scarce then it must be better" than well manufactured current tubes with the same specs?

[Rusty Jefferson]

It is puzzling why current production tubes mostly haven't been able to match NOS quality.  I'm sure they were cranked out in huge numbers back in the day and we have so much more technological know how these days.  Maybe it's just the economics - not worth the R&D or something.

.......Peter

It's not puzzling at all. The Walmart-ization (nice verbification) of the planet forces manufacturing to the lowest cost, highest margin  possible. Even though  tubes were once made by the millions, there was a lot of attention paid to design, and in particular metallurgy.  Many of the compounds once used to make tubes are either becoming rare or are simply unavailable.  And there is knowledge being lost also.  The people who have the first hand knowledge are going, or already gone.

There are some good re-issue tubes starting to come out, but even if industry put their heart and soul into it no expenses spared, they may still not be as good as the originals, just as some feel newly made musical instruments don't sound as good as older ones.  It doesn't mean you stop playing music because you don't own a vintage instrument.

Several equipment builders are making tube gear that is designed to maximize tube life, use plentiful less expensive tubes, and/or both. I support them with my purchases.

[Canada Rob]

The Canadian made Ideal Innovations Elite 80 PP and the Elite 40 SE SET both come stock with NOS 6AV5 tubes.  Syd also has plenty of backup stock so those who buy these amps will be covered for years to come.

[richidoo]

There is a significant horde of NOS tubes in private collections. It trickles out.

Some of the new production premium tubes, like Black Treasure, are as good as NOS, imo. Consistency and availability over time are more important to me than heritage and pedigree. I like less warmth, so the classic vintage brands aren't my cup o tea anyway.   But if you like amperex, you can't get that from current production.

[JimJ]

Find what the gee-tar players are using. Use those.

In all seriousness, I may run into this with my SV811 monos in a few years. Svet stopped making them, so I think after I get a replacement set they may be uneconomical to keep in their current form the next time I need to swap tubes. IIRC, the conversion to regular plate-capped 811As isn't too hard, and those are still in production as RF tubes for medium-power amateur radio amplifiers.

[jorgen]

Hi guys
Found a local older guy today, he had a laaaarge selection of all kind of tubes, many of them very rare and difficult to find and buy. He told me he was to ship of 200 000 to buyer in US.... If any of you are in need of a special pair or something please let me know and I can ask if has them.

I went and bought RCA 6L6 black plate... Expensive in my world... And told to find some nice sounding 12au7 and some interesting ez80/81 for me to roll in my amp. He has a big collection....

[Jazzaudio]

This may be sacrilegious, but I've found over the years the variance for me between "like" and "don't' like" between NOS and current production tubes, at least for the 12AX7 family of tubes, is no greater than the variance among NOS tubes.

I'm currently using a combination: NOS Mullard 4024 (12AT7) in the input section of my Jolida 1701 Hybrid Integrated amp, and Tungsol reissue 12AX7 in the tube output of my Jolida JD100 CD player. 12AX7 tubes are standard with both units, and I've tried numerous combinations of the series (12AX7, 12AT7, 12AU7, 5751) using NOS Sylvania (JAN and JHS), GE, RCA, RFT, as well as new production Gold Lions, Tungsol, EH, JJ.  Speakers are Omega Super 3S (with Cardas binding posts). Interconnects are Darwin Silver. Power cords and speaker cables are Cullen Cable Crossover Series. 

I can hear every change, subtle and pronounced, amongst the tubes (Thanks Louis!). I can't honestly say every signature, regardless if the tube was NOS or current production, was the cat's meow.  Each has strengths and weaknesses which can be emphasized or deemphasized using the whole audio system....and according to one's taste.  For example, the Mullard 4024 midrange is outstanding, which I've found common with most Mullard tubes.  They also tend to be a bit softer on top, to my ears.  I don't know if it's because the mids are more pronounced and/or rich, or the top end is actually rolled off.  The Gold Lion 12AX7 midrange is also outstanding and, oddly enough, both different and similar to the Mullards.  The Gold Lions sounded more balanced on top and bottom, which may have affected the way I heard the mids. Plus, they have different output levels separate from their sonic signatures.  To complicate things further, they both sounded different when I swapped them between components!  The Tungsol 12AX7 reissue images just like a NOS Sylvania 5751 (very holographic in my system)...but only in the Jolida CDP!  Is it because, imaging-wise, it's as good as the Sylvania (in the CDP), or is it because (like earlier) of the 12AX7's higher output versus the 5751 and just the perception of better imaging?  If I'm looking for imaging would it matter, particularly at 1/2 or 1/3 the price? If lowering or raising the output level (interchanging 12XXX and 5751 tubes) affects a components signature the same as swapping in/out NOS or current production tubes...should it matter? And what are the other sonic trade-offs?  Food for thought

The combinations and examples are endless.  To further complicate things, I heard strengths and weakness in tubes (both NOS and new production) thrown out the window simply with a power cord change.  A JJ tube with a thick midrange now sounded open when a copper power cord was swapped with a silver-plated copper cord (same gauge). A RFT tube that imaged and detailed like crazy, but seemed to lack a little bass and warmth, sounded fuller and deeper with a power cord that had UPOCC connectors ( and larger gauge conductors).  Of course, the cords didn't change the tubes...they simply powered the component.  But they did make the system sound like a tube was swapped with a tube (NOS or new) that exhibited the same trait when used with the same and/or different components!

I've rambled, and could have just said YMMV regarding NOS tubes   But there are quality examples of both!  I think quality components and cabling have a huge impact as well