[brucegel]

The question I have is a provocative one and well it should be.There are however a few caveats to answering it.First I would like to hear from people who have been in the hobby for 20 years or more because this arc of time is crucial to having seen sufficient changes to comment intelligently on the subject.Secondly I am not interested in flaming or insulting anyone but I am interested in cogent well argued ideas.If this thread is taken seriously it may wind up in one of the audio magazines in a condensed form so craft carefully.My question is this:Have you noticed a deterioration in the consumers knowledge of high end audio gear or not and what do you attribute it to.And has there been a deterioration in the industries integrity in the areas of marketing,sales, and service.Thanks for your help.I wish I could pay you all for your responses but a heartfelt thank you is all I can honestly promise.

[Fife]

I havent had my 20yrs experience yet but here's my 2 cents.

Have you noticed a deterioration in the consumers knowledge of high end audio gear or not and what do you attribute it to.

I do not think there is a deterioration in our knowledge but you could say that technological advances have made the industry more complex with the introduction of digital components.

And has there been a deterioration in the industries integrity in the areas of marketing,sales, and service.

Integrity..Possibly so. Companies are out to make money and small shops want to catch the wave as well.
Service...that depends. The answer goes both ways. Either companies want to make a quick buck and run or they either want to stay around long term to do business .

[meilankev]

Bruce,

I've been at this since ~1980.  However I don't have any high-brow opinion of myself relative to audiophilia.  I no longer consider myself an audiophile - I feel I have evolved into being simply a music-lover (back where I started).  I no longer tweak; I no longer obsess; I'm no longer concerned with wringing an extra 1% performance out of my gear; I simply put on albums and enjoy them.  How my system stacks up against anyone else's is of no concern.

Some of my viewpoints on your questions:

1)  I do not believe the knowledge level of hi-end consumers has lessened over the years.  There have always been "big fish with fat wallets" ready to be suckered by high-end boutiques.

2)  I do think the audience has become younger as the years have gone by.  Of course, this could be because I have simply gotten older and older, and so my perception may have changed.

3)  It seems to me the audience for high-end gear is larger (more populous - not fatter) than it was 20 years ago.  Again, this could be a perception error on my part, because of the increased flow of information (via sites such as this).

4)  As to the integrity of audio manufacturers, again I don't see any lowering of standards in recent years.  Shysters such as Tice and Belt have been peddling their stuff for many years.  And my experiences over the past 3 - 4 years (replacing my entire "Main System") was nothing short of wonderful.  This included 4 or 5 snooty NYCity boutiques, where I was treated wonderfully each and every time.

In summary, from my limited point of view, the world of high-end audio has fewer land-mines than any time in my experiences.  And to be honest, I feel Internet audio sites is one of the vehicles that has empowered the consumer to some extent.  If a consumer feels unsure about pulling the trigger on a deal, they have the ability to pose this question to the world, and get responses (granted you do not neccesarily know the knowledge level of your answerers).  Twenty years ago, unless the consumer was a member of an Audiophile Club, it was pretty much "them against the Dealer" - and the results weren't always pretty.

Kevin

[DVV]

The question I have is a provocative one and well it should be.There are however a few caveats to answering it.First I would like to hear from people who have been in the hobby for 20 years or more because this arc of time is crucial to having seen sufficient changes to comment intelligently on the subject. ...

Let me qualify first. I've been at it since I was 11, meaning from 1964 onwards. Ever since 1968, I've never been without a complete component system. Ever since 1975 or so, I've been designing my own, with variable success rates, but I have never gone commercial - for my pleasure only.

Secondly I am not interested in flaming or insulting anyone but I am interested in cogent well argued ideas. If this thread is taken seriously it may wind up in one of the audio magazines in a condensed form so craft carefully.My question is this: Have you noticed a deterioration in the consumers knowledge of high end audio gear or not and what do you attribute it to.

Yes, and I have gone on record many times saying it out loud. Not just the high end, but audio gear in general.

My view is that this is because of three things:

1. Prices have been slowly drifting downwards, if not in absolute terms, then in terms of what you get for the money. This has cause audio to become more popular than ever, driving prices down, but also making competition very cuthroat;

2. The advent of digital audio, which later on caused the advent of digital video, has made audio more widespread than ever, even if this is true only if one takes into account home cinema (DVD, DViX, etc);

3. This has caused many traditional manufacturers to go bust, be bought out, or switch products to what the market will consume. Lack of fresh ideas has brought about several fads, some of which have turned into sheer madness, driving prices sky-high for high end audio, and turning it into a status symbol rather than a vehicle to music.

And has there been a deterioration in the industries integrity in the areas of marketing, sales, and service.Thanks for your help.I wish I could pay you all for your responses but a heartfelt thank you is all I can honestly promise.

In my view, yes. Marketing has become an all out war, where no quarter is asked for or given - anything goes, so long as it brings money in. For lack of new ideas, manufacturers have become aluminum reseller in no small part - 1" thick aluminum plates make no sense other than in marketing. Looks have replaced the essence, and under tremendous marketing pressure, the public has more or less fully succumbed to this idiotic trend. In other words, it's more a game of perceived than real value that's being played today, although of course there are still companies striving to improve the essence.

But real audio, where effort is made on the essence, not the appearance, has moved to the outskirts of audio, away from the mainstream, and currently lives in small, upstart companies fighting hard to survive and make it.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Cheers,
DVV

[doug s.]

...My question is this:Have you noticed a deterioration in the consumers knowledge of high end audio gear or not and what do you attribute it to.And has there been a deterioration in the industries integrity in the areas of marketing,sales, and service....

well, i bought my first stereo - receiver, tape deck, turntable, & speakers back in '67.  decidedly low end, but it was all an eleven-year-old could afford from his paper route.     at least i did sell it for 95% of what i paid, in a garage sale seven years later!  

anyway, in answer to your questions, i have to answer an emphatic "no" & "no".  high end audio has *always* been a lunatic fringe segment of the audio market, imo, & snake-oil salesmen have been around since the dawn of man.

i firmly believe that 95% of EVERYTHING is crap.  audio, consumer knowledge, & salesperson integrity are no exceptions...

ymmv,

doug s.

[audioengr]

Have you noticed a deterioration in the consumers knowledge of high end audio gear or not and what do you attribute it to...

Firstly, the advent of Home Theater and the lack of interest in the arts in general has affected what walk-in salons are selling.  Therefore, the typical consumer does not get exposure to high-end equipment or sound anymore.  Also, the complexity of systems has gone up, with the invention of CD and digital audio transmission.  Most people dont even know the difference between analog and digital and when you mention interconnects, they dont know what you are talking about.  They only know speaker cables.  Much of the population was raised on console stereo, so there was no cabling at all.  Therefore, many seek-out the combo systems for themselves, so there is no wiring to do.  Also, the main concern is not sound quality, but whether it either looks like furniture or hides away so you cannot see it, even with HT gear.  Salons that do sell high-end audio are not helping either.  They dont seem to be able to put together good-sounding systems.  Trade shows are almost as bad.

Once these same people are exposed to good high-end audio, they are amazed at what the CD can deliver, and what they have been missing all these years.  However, fewer and fewer have an appreciation for music, or are willing to sit for any length of time to listen.  In my parents time, music was for dancing, not listening, at least in the US.  Car radios were for listening to Frank Sinatra sing love songs.  It was the lyrics that were important.  It wasn't until the Beatles and rock-and-roll that listening was revived among the masses.

[Red Dragon Audio]

Only 13 years experience in audio so what I have to say may not be entirely relavant.

Have you noticed a deterioration in the consumers knowledge of high end audio gear or not and what do you attribute it to.And has there been a deterioration in the industries integrity in the areas of marketing,sales, and service.

1) I think the knowledge of comsumers who buy high end audio has gone up.  I would attribute it to a the internet in the last few years which has helped folks share ideas, experience, product knowledge, debunk junk, and overall just spread word of what works and what doesn't.  Aren't there more High End Audio mags now than ever before?  Sure feels that way to me.  So magazines are more popular too I guess but that I am not sure about due to my age.

1)a.-side note- For the very same reason I think consumers have become more aware/knowleadgable via the internet, we've also needed the dealers less because of it.  We can post a question here, get answers from folks who don't profit from telling us their thoughts and pretty much get honest answers.  Dealers have to pitch you why you NEED to buy what THEY sell so they are always biased.  Not that consumers don't feel loyalty to their brands/equipment...we do...but I feel less biased as I dont' have a stake in anything I claim.


2) "Has there been a deterioration in the industries integrity in the areas of marketing,sales, and service?"  I think there are some dubious claims out there in the high end audio market but I am not completely qualified to question integrity in sales or service exactly; marketing I can evaluate more readily (if that makes any sense to anyone I will be shocked....this ain't well crafted dude).  Equipment certainly has gone the way of becoming more visually appealing and therefore more expensive.  Who in 1975 would have thought there would ever be speaker cables selling for the astronomical values like $6,000, $15,000, $20,000 (doesn't transparent cables have cables as much as $40k?).  But if the cables have the coolest looking carbon fiber pod attached to the end and the jacket looks wicked cool (just look at what ZuCables did with their Julian...they make it LOOK BETTER so now they charge $50 more and call it the St. Julian...it certainly does look better but how does that affect sound?  It doesn't...it is just part and parcel of the industry now: IF IT LOOKS GOOD, IT MUST THEREFORE SOUND GOOD TOO.)

Anyway...my thoughts are probably too incoherent and poorly crafted to help you in anyway but they are there.

[Audiopro]

This is my first post here.
I've been servicing gear for over 20 years both as a hobby and commercially. I do service work on a contract basis for small companies, so I've seen a lot of different types of equipment.

Have you noticed a deterioration in the consumers knowledge of high end audio gear or not and what do you attribute it to.And has there been a deterioration in the industries integrity in the areas of marketing,sales, and service.

I think I have seen a deterioration in consumers knowledge. Two reasons. 1)A lot of misinformation on the internet. While there is a wealth of excellent info, it seems that whoever gets the most exposure can influence thinking to great extent.
2) People also now tend to read about, or trust opinion instead of using there own ears. An example of this is someone buying equipment online on the basis of reviews without actually ever seeing the product. That is not to say what they are buying is bad, it's just that I wouldn't buy sight unseen. Would you buy a car without a test drive?

As for industry integrity, it depends on the company a great deal. There are still a large number of companies (both big and small) that are good service oriented companies and that sell a quality product.
There is unfortunately more opportunity to get snake oil out there. Internet is a cheap advertising commodity, and many companies use it to full advantage for both good and bad.

I could name several examples of both types of companies but I won't.

This is a very complex topic, which will no doubt get a lot of varying opinions.

Dan