[AKSA]

Ah,

It's becoming clearer!  And no crucifixions here;  we frown on such rituals, no graven images, either, thank you........

You were, I suspect, listening to an AKSonic with a Nirvana 55W.  The early AKSonic uses a 6.5" driver and was designed for a flat response to 50Hz.  Subsequently we changed the driver for more bass slam, and that is what is being sold today.  Ideally the AKSonic should use a subwoofer, as the laws of physics are against strong bass from a single smallish driver.

There is also the CD player.  It is the last link in the chain.  What sort?

Is your friend in Melbourne, by chance?

And is your friend happy with his system?  What does he see as the strength of his system?

What sort of music do you like to listen to, Humming_bird?

Thanks for your response,

Cheers,

Hugh

[andyr]

As for andyr's Naim 250, you may need to re-cap it. It is 25 years old amp after all. Naim recommends to re-cap their amplifiers every 7-10 years. Comparing your 25 years old Naim with AKSA is like comparing a 30 years old BMW with a modern car. Old BMW is still good but it needs some works....

Hi, humming_bird, if you read my post again, you'll find I said in my reply to your post that a) I knew the Naim amp was old (so it wasn't a fair comparison) and b) if I bought new 250s, they would've sounded better.

However, I also said this would've been a vastly more expensive exercise than selling the Naim gear and buying 3 AKSA kits.  I also suggest that merely replacing the PS caps and leaving all the other 25-year old caps alone would be a waste of time but replacing *all* the 25-year old caps starts to get to be about the same amount of work as building a whole new kit!  So it's just not worth it.

Regards,

Andy

[stvnharr]

Humming Bird,
You've certainly given some unsettledness to things here.   All well and good, as everyone has an opinion.
However, if you are an experienced audio listener, then you should well know that one NEVER listens to a single component in an audio system at any single listening!!!!!   You ONLY listen to a particular audio system!!  One can compare TWO components by swapping only those two components, but that also brings in things like system compatibility, and a few other variables that can affect the sound of the system.
If you are only interested in publication reviewer comments, then you really have no business in a DIY forum, and should go elsewhere on the net for audio opinions, or go to the local magazine rack.

Happy Listening

[DVV]

Ah,

It's becoming clearer!  And no crucifixions here;  we frown on such rituals, no graven images, either, thank you........

You were, I suspect, listening to an AKSonic with a Nirvana 55W.  The early AKSonic uses a 6.5" driver and was designed for a flat response to 50Hz.  Subsequently we changed the driver for more bass slam, and that is what is being sold today.  Ideally the AKSonic should use a subwoofer, as the laws of physics are against strong bass from a single smallish driver.

There ...

Yes, woofers start to get serious from 10" and above - if it's strictly woofers you want. But then, with 10" and above, you would probably need a 3 way speaker, if you're to have each driver working within its optimum range, and 3 way speakers are a whole new ball game (greater size, more complexity, devilishly tricky XO, usually harder loads to drive, etc).

But get it right, and you get much more slam and gravitas as is, without any subs, and it need not be a difficult load to drive (but this costs you months of work, and God alone, if even He, knows how many versions of the crossovers). The end result is that you could arrive at a model which a nominally medium power amp, such as the AKSA 55, could drive with ease to very uncomfortably loud levels without undue stress.

The reason why I'm taking up this space is to remind one and all that in general, larger 3X speakers tend to be more efficient than smaller speakers simply because they use specialized drivers for specialized parts of the spectrum. Especially in case of speakers using twin bass drivers, where adding the second driver increases efficiency by a nominal 3 dB (but since this is a power rating, +3dB means twice the loudness).

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Cheers,
DVV

[MattCassidy]

Just a quick addition to this thread. I recently hosted a listening afternoon where we had a Bel Canto Evo II digital amp couple with some very nice speakers (Dynaudio Special 25's), a good source, as well as my recently completed 100Watt Nirvana Aksa. We listened to a variety of tracks on one amp then immediately on the other. We had three experienced listeners who made a gallant attempt to be objective and have a good listen. All three of us agreed that

A. Nobody would be upset having either amp at home
B. The Aksa was "smoother" and more easy to listen to than the BC

Some other observations were that the Aksa was better at keeping the instruments separate, I also thought that the BC maybe had a bit more detail in the treble although not sure if the others agreed with this..

I recently replaced my Marantz PM 7200 with the Aksa. The PM 7200 was reviewed in the mainstream hi-fi press in several places and was universally raved about, albiet with a caveat that was "for the money". It won What Hi-Fi best buy in it's class. In my system Arcam 73T CD player and Quad 11L speakers, the Aksa sounds a whole lot better and had much better base than the Marantz. The other really notable difference was the imaging.

I have a background in scientific research and am very aware of issues such as multiple variables, subjectivity and the placebo effect. A single listening experience where you have a different room, different source, different pre-amp, different speakers to be quite honest is not worth a pinch of s**t.

I have had a lot of trouble hearing differences in cables and interconnects in the past, but my observations about the amp were quite obvious. My opinion is that if you have to concentrate really hard to hear a small difference, then you should probably have another drink instead.

Cheers

MAtt

[MikeC]

Firstly, I must state that I very strongly disagree with the placatory tone taken by some in response to humming_bird. He has disparaged all AKSA owners and practically accused us of having cloth ears. He has also brought our collective qualifications into question. I have no desire to start a flame-fest here, but it is ill mannered to wander into the AKSA forum and diss the livelihood of the forum owner with your first post. There is nothing in the tone of either the original message or subsequent postings that this was anything other than an attack. Even the last (third) posting categorises the sound as unbearable and makes a sarcastic comment about disturbing the forum ritual. Humming-bird has still not stated any vested interest in any other equipment, and has patently not taken the time to research his target.

My qualifications to comment on the amplifier were asked for, so here they are. I'm sure that there are similar or better qualified people on this or other forums. I am a degreed mechanical engineer. This in no way qualifies me to comment on the circuit design or implementation, but it does give me a background education in maths, physics and rational thought. I have also been involved in hi-fi and music generally for the last 18 years. This includes a stint of part time work in a high-end retailer while a student, which also gave me access to some mega systems from the likes of Krell, Mark Levinson, Revel, Duntech, Sonus Faber, Wadia, etc through contacts I made with distributors in that time. I attend live concerts and am also regularly involved with sound production for a small group, playing to crowds of up to 600, so I am familiar with both amplified and non-amplified real live music.

That off my chest, the observation that builders are likely to be biased towards their "creation" does hold some water. However, the comments from lonewolf in response to the original post appear to have been completely ignored. Lonewolf is not the owner of any AKSA product, yet has been impressed with the sound after extensive listening and comparison to other products in various set-ups. I posted after first building my AKSA (and in my testimonial on the AKSA web site) that I did not have particularly high hopes when I bought the kit. It has now completely replaced a Proceed Amp-2. Another unbiased opinion I have obtained was from a local hi-fi store owner who heard it in his small listening room where it replaced the power amp section of a Marantz SR7300 HT receiver. Source was a Marantz DV8400 CD/SACD/DVD player into B&W 703 speakers with AudioQuest cabling. His first response was "WOW! great bass", and he left it in system to demonstrate the DVD player to customers.

The one thing I have never heard the AKSA accused of before was poor bass. I would not expect my 55WN+ to have complete control over a pair of 12" drivers, but I would not expect the bass to be lacking. What is described appears to be either speaker related (as Hugh has suspected) or room related. I suspect the latter, more specifically the room/speaker interaction, having more than a passing interest in acoustics. I get superb bass to below 50Hz in room from a pair of 5.25" transmission line loaded Vifa bass-mids per channel in a very carefully dimensioned room. If the friend were to try repositioning the speakers, more bass might be apparent. As someone else has remarked, the last component to question in a case like this must be the amplifier. The only alternative suggestion is that humming_bird likes bloated, overblown bass, in which case no carefully matched and set up system will satisfy him.

I am sorry for Hugh to be put in this position. On one hand, he must defend his product, while on the other hand, he cannot be seen to be over-defensive for fear that he has something to hide. He provides a kit that provides very good sound for not much money (relatively). Is it the best amp in the world? Probably not, but then whose definition of best do we take any way. Is it as bad as humming_bird describes? Emphatically no! The evidence is all anecdotal, but what else is there for anyone to describe the sound of any hi-fi equipment. If humming_bird wants objective opinions only, then he must rely on Doug Self style measurement, or rely only on the "objective" reporting of the popular press (I'm not intending to criticise the magazines here, only stating that their reviewers are subject to the same vagaries of equipment, rooms and tastes as the amateurs inhabiting the forums).

I must respectfully disagree with Hugh that humming_bird has put his point across well. The only thing he has conveyed is that the amp is not to his liking and has no bass. He has not bothered to investigate associated equipment, yet assumes belatedly that the speakers may also have been an AKSA product. There is no mention of what music was played, or even if the system was working properly. If humming_bird wandered in with facts, descriptions and an enquiring mind, then I would have no problem accommodating him and we would probably agree to differ, as music reproduction is indeed personal.

What can we conclude from all this? Either humming_bird is a troll, in which case we should all ignore him from now on, and he will eventually leave. The second conclusion, for which I see very little evidence, is that he is actually looking to expand his knowledge. If this is the case, then I suggest he gains some civility and actually researches the subject before posting again.

Mike C

[andyr]

Firstly, I must state that I very strongly disagree with the placatory tone taken by some in response to humming_bird. He has disparaged all AKSA owners and practically accused us of having cloth ears. He has also brought our collective qualifications into question. I have no desire to start a flame-fest here, but it is ill mannered to wander into the AKSA forum and diss the livelihood of the forum owner with your first post. ...

Hi, Mike,

Lovely post, mate but let's look at the facts here:

1.  Unfortunately, I suspect H-bird probably won't read your post.  He's (SHE's???    ) helicoptered in to the AKSA forum, read some marketing blurb about the AKSAs, decided to toss out some grenades, had a look at the resulting response and is now back on his home territory.  "Another tribe of savages smashed ... what ho!!".

2.  Now, you're from the Dark Continent AND your an engineer.  That means your opinions aren't worth of pinch of wombat droppings in any civilised society!  

3.  Whatd'ya do with people/trolls/neanderthals like H-bird?  I suggest there's no point getting all flamed up     - and I'm a great one for flames!   You simply have to try to provoke her/him, nicely, into thinking that maybe there's something deeper here that's worth pursuing further.  And I think these posts have.

I must say, as someone who's made a career selling leading-edge computer concepts over the last 30 years, I meet duckhids (as they say in our far Eastern State!) every day who think they know more about these things than me!!  And most of them barely have a degree - or an Arts degree at best - which is nowhere near a match for my postgraduate maths degrees!!  

4.  I must say, though, I don't think the amps which Hugh references in his marketing blurbs are a good idea - simply because I've never heard any of them ... either actually (with my ears) or as "reference cornerstones" which one compares one's amp to.

Perhaps it would be better if he gave a list of amps which AKSA owners have turfed after listening to their AKSAs?

Enough, enough ... geez, what might I have written if this was AFTER dinner and a coupla bottles of shiraz!!  Whew!!    

Regards,

Andy

[AKSA]

Mike, Andy, AKSAphiles,

My thanks to all for their comments;  much appreciated.

Knowing human nature, I am confident that Humming_bird will be watching this thread with considerable interest.......

Not surprisingly, I have measured the AKSA Nirvana bass response and know precisely what the amplifier is doing at 100Hz and below.  However, we talk of a system, as Mike explains, and there are many other candidates to point the bone at including the room, so I'm not going to get steamed up about this.

Humming_bird is quite entitled to his opinion, and showed some tremulation at the thought of an upcoming pagan ceremony;  I believe he is wrong, but would defend his right to say what he said.

Manners are another thing again, and I came down fairly hard at the outset, mollifying somewhat by my second post.  I invited him to reveal his position, and knowing precisely my position, he declined.  That is ingenuous, and therefore as far as I'm now concerned the matter is closed for the trivial diversion it always was.

In closing, credibility is only validated by research, both objective and subjective.   As Mike says, research is necessary, and arguably experience is mandatory.  I am proud to say that most AKSAphiles are quite experienced in matters audio and many were originally drawn to the product when they read the Design Philosophy of the amp on the website.  That paper, and the methodology and approach it describes, is the single most important factor in the creation of the AKSA product range.

Again, my thanks to all who came to the defence of the AKSA.  

Andy, see you over coffee tomorrow at 10:30!!  

Mike, care to join us from the Dark Continent?    

Cheers,

Hugh

[lonewolfny42]

However, the comments from lonewolf in response to the original post appear to have been completely ignored. Lonewolf is not the owner of any AKSA product, yet has been impressed with the sound after extensive listening and comparison to other products in various set-ups.  

Thank you MikeC !! I got to audition the AKSA 100N+ for almost

two weeks. And with many different amps, preamps, speakers, dac's, and players (that I own). I'm not one to believe everything I read - I have to hear it for myself. That is why I pushed for a home demo. And Hugh was nice enough to provide one !! Now a lot of people can hear it for themselves , at home and with their own equipement.[/list:u]

As I said before, if your in the US ( I have no idea where you live, you didn't say) and would like to hear the AKSA.....the opportunity is

here.....[/list:u]

Good luck !!! [/list:u]

[humming_bird]

To AKSA:

I enjoy the full-body voice of Jennifer Warnes, energetic performance of Keb Mo, refreshing performance of Winton Marsallis, grainless vocal of Sumi Jo, and the transparent voice of Clair Marlo. I also enjoy the unique vocals of Toni Child and Tracy Chapmen.

My friend was proudly presenting his much less than perfect sound system. He was obviously very happy with the system. When I looked at him at that moment, I could only say “I’m glad you like your project”. I have been there myself. We all enjoy the moment when we turn the power on and there is no smoke coming out from the project. Double it when it does produce sound. I built couple of class AB amplifiers, there are 50W and 80W respectively. I put them to the test with different speakers. The first pair was a pair of old speakers. My amps are gutsy enough to give them a worst day in life. Those speakers are not rated for hi-fi audition, I had no expectation. However, they were at least tonically correct and balanced. The second pair was DIY speakers with a pair of SEAS drivers and a pair of high precision silk dome tweeters. I don’t use hi-fi jargon to describe my amplifiers. I can only say they play damn good music. At the time, I thought they were unbeatable and there were unparallel in its class. I was not comparing them with Class A or tube amp of any sort. I have tested those amps against some commercial brands such as Marantz, Rotel, Pioneer and YTL. I was so convinced that my amplifier were the best. On one particular occasion, one of my friends suggested that we should do a blind fold test. Without knowing which amp we are switching into, my preference leans toward YTL, simply because it produced more enjoyable music. I wasn’t disappointed. Instead it opened up a new dimension in perceiving the reproduction of music. I didn’t give up playing with these electronics components. I continued building different equipment for the music. These include a tube preamp, DAC, DC Servo, 2A3 tube amp and my latest project 845 tube amp. My next project will be a pair of full range Lowther speakers.

DVV, forget about those crossover, and/or different drivers for different frequency range. Lowther is the answer for you.

MattCassidy, you don’t need a rocket science degree to be able to enjoy music. There is no hype, no myth in music. Just prepare your mind to enjoy what you have. If you don’t like your equipment, you can always improve it. Stay away from hi-fi hypes, experiment, try and retry. In time you will discover your own audio system.

Stvnharr, I do read a lot about hi-fi hypes on the net and magazines. Thanks for your concern; I can see there are a lot of hi-fi bull shits on public publication and that is exactly my initial intention to ask for the validation of AKSA quotation on their website:

"In auditioning with the AKSA we have ranked with Leak tube amp’s, Marantz PM66 Signature Series, Sugden A21 Class A amp’s, and Audiom Silver Knight SE 300B amps."

Above comments are  published on the net without obtaining the independent reviews on AKSA amplifier and it has been innocently “ranked” with those well-known amps without “swapping” them in a blind-fold audition session. So what you would call this s**t? (quote from MattCassidy). If you think this test is not necessary before releasing public comments in a public forum, why not “ranked” AKSA with Mark Levison, Krell, Jeff Rowland, etc? Why not? Since AKSA is not taking responsibility in making such a claim.
 
In all honestly, it is totally inadequate to audit those amplifiers together as there are in different class, different power rating and even different types. Well, if you insist, there are no laws to stop you from doing that.

I’m not policing other people publishing any articles about their products neither. It just drew my attention after I read the above “published comments”.

I apologise if I have offended anybody here. I don’t realise there is such a strong bond among the AKSA group. We’ve all been cursed by hi-fi hype. May the force be with you all.  I’ll not reply to this forum again as I’m retiring from writing. I’m going to back to my music.

PS: Please do not provoke me to reply your comments.
   
Yours (flying away),
Humming_Bird

[DSK]

...... and another troll disappears into oblivion.

I have no problem with anybody properly auditioning a decently built AKSA and not liking its sound, or being sceptical of hype if they haven't heard one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

However, to listen briefly to an AKSA made with who knows what parts and to what standard, and in someone else's system and room, and instantly take an anti-AKSA stance is very closed-minded and very unscientific. Wasn't it Humming-Bird himself/herself who suggested that blind tests are mandatory? And to then imply that anyone who likes the sound of their AKSA only does so because they built it themselves, or because they have no idea what good sound is, is just downright rude and ignorant.... as is the implication that AKSA owners are happy with their AKSAs because they can't afford anything more.  HB obviously hasn't read all the posts and PM's that go back and forth, but the AKSA gear has replaced some far more expensive components as well as being auditioned favourably against other far more expensive components (including Krell, ML, Bel Canto, BAT, etc).

When HB learns a little more about auditioning equipment, drops the air of superiority and bases opinions on decent foundations, he/she may be able to communicate more effectively with peers and may even learn something. Until then, I'll try not to look up as he/she flies overhead in case he/she drops more unsolicited sh!t our way.

[DVV]

...

DVV, forget about those crossover, and/or different drivers for different frequency range. Lowther is the answer for you.

...

Not for me, sport, thank you. I've heard them for the first time when I was living in England, then periodically at some poor sod's who got talked into them. Same goes for Beauhorn.

One way systems must, by the rules of physics, which I am told are still valid (unless some high end mag has repealed them), use one driver which simply cannot do high, mid and low all at the same time and do it reasonably well. The requirements are totally contradictory; for bass, you need large cone area coupled with some excursion, if you want gut thumping bass (and I do), for tweeter, you need dispersion, low mass and tremendous speed.

But one way systems are TRUE PA stuff; they are usually very efficient, and that's what you want when you need to have great loudness with relatively little power.

Their only virtue is that they are by their nature, which is nudist and eschews crossovers, phase linear in terms of sound source (however, not in terms of sound produced, due to contradictory requirements made of them simultaneously).

No, you keep the single driver gig, I'm happy with my 3x speakers, very probably in part because they took such a long time in becoming what was required of them. And at 92 dB/1W/1m, nominal 8 ohms and minimum 6.3 ohms impedance, a worst case phase shift of -25 degrees, 36...21,000 Hz +/- 2dB response and power capability of 150 watts, they are a very easy load to drive, so even SET systems have no problems making them come alive, let alone my usual 2x180W/8 ohms amp.

Cheers,
DVV

[Carlman]

His issue was with the wording of Hugh's site.  
The way I guess that this went down is like this:  Hbird likely read about AKSA on some forum.. and about how great is sounds.. and then he recollected he'd heard an AKSA system and he thought it sounded like crap.  So, he went to the AKSA site and read the somewhat ambiguous comment (you know, the one with the word 'ranked' in it), and was outraged.  So, he posted here to get clarification (and likely stir the pot a little), on this statement on Hugh's site.

However the rub is when he knows that it's ad copy.. a brochure.... and chooses a statement out of it and says it has no evidence to substantiate a claim... and then uses his one poor experience to discredit it.  

That's like someone saying Coke isn't it because they haven't proven that indeed, 'Coke IS it.'  
(for those that don't know, 'Coke Is It' was  Coke's tagline in every ad in U.S. for most of the 80's and into the 90's.

So, instead of coming here appearing to seek info, he appears to be a troll, looking to get a rise.  (which he may be)  But, my guess is that he doesn't understand perception well enough to a, understand a website's claims or b, solicit constructive replies on a forum.

That's what I saw in all of this.. I could be wrong.... but who knows.

[kyrill]

ah after more posts it seems, the bird is a music lover, that means he is like us. He is a DIY too, so he is like us.He goes for the extreme (must be if you go for Lowther, be it a matter of taste or not) so he is like most of us too.  His original posting was not elegant, but his last is. SO he is not always perfect in his first encounters, that makes him human, so he must be like us.

I hate to see him go, as I assume him being like us, that he will have a lot of experience and knowledge to share.

[jules]

Succinct and clear Kyrill and I agree. The response here from everyone has shown the quality of this forum amongst other things.

Above all Aksa products are going to be judged for their sonic qualities but when I bought mine I was strongly impressed by other factors. Hugh is prepared to give enormous amounts of his time in support of his product and he clearly has a passionate, intense and honest focus on an ideal. I find it refreshing that the primary aim isn't to make thousands of Aksas with a particular cost margin to accrue a mammoth fortune.  Other things that have impressed me about this product are the website and this forum. I have made the comment to Hugh that there are parallels between the development of Aksa and open source systems like linux. There are many layers here from basic questions (like mine) to high level technical interaction that feeds back into possible improvements. I don't know if this is unique in this field but it strikes me as being very dynamic and innovative.

If/when Hugh decides to go into production with Aksas there will no doubt  a wave of critical assesment to follow. Regardless of how good Aksa products are, some of this criticism is going to be a lot harsher and more acid than anything humming bird has dished out. Criticism is subjective and critics have their own barrows to push but luckily the success of any product is usually based on its acceptance by a core of people who's opinions are valued by others.

As humming bird has noticed, this forum is incredibly devoted to its cause. My own impression is that a large part of the input here is devoted to ways to get more out of our systems but if there is any message in all of this surely it has to be that criticism is not harmful and should be encouraged in the sense of "your enemy is your best friend".

This has been a lively and interesting debate with some fascinating views expressed. Hugh, are you sure humming_bird is not a pen name for you or one of your family members?

Jules