[gagamut]

HI ALL,
I think everybody love the WT Amadeus or Versalex included me,
But recently i think if WILLIAM can give more data,like OVERHANG ................etc,is it can make the Amadeus or Versalex to next level

Sam

[SteevA]

You can only really change overhang my moving the golf ball off center (forward of backwards) in the cup, so by ± about 3mm on the LTD arm.  I haven't actually experimented with doing this though.

Steve

[gagamut]

Yes,i know that,but its like gambling, so if you got a exactly DATA,you can easy do it

Sam

[threadkiller]

But Sam, the reason Firebaugh set it as fixed was to take the guesswork out of it for the majority of cartridges, and users. He used over 20 different cartridges in his testing and calibrations. Perhaps some, like yourself, could correctly align . Many couldn't- even though they think they can.
Everything would have to be redesigned in order to grant your wish. Best to switch tables if that worries you too much.

[gagamut]

Hi threadkiller,i just wondering can do it better .and i will not change,the Amadeus is absolutely  amazing,

[threadkiller]

Sam, I totally agree!
I suppose the only thing you can do is make sure your VTA is dialed in for your particular cartridge, that you use the nicest interconnects you can afford, that you replace the stock mat with either Auditorium mat, or even the new Moo mat at $60 US is better than stock. Be sure your table is on a nice shelf or rack. Don't do weird things to it which alters the sound. You can add the DPS to it, and you can replace the cable from DPS to table with a heavier gauge and longer length. Make sure your support is level. Other than that, I guess make sure your cartridge is matched well with phono stage, and keep your records and stylus clean. A great record cleaner makes a big difference- Keith Monks or KL audio.
If you do all that, then that's about as good as it gets.
And that's really really good!

[rob400]

Hi threadkiller,i just wondering can do it better .and i will not change,the Amadeus is absolutely  amazing,

Follow Charlie's (Threadkiller) advise Sam and if your Amadeus sounds amazing then overhang mustn't be a problem. Right!

[watercourse]

HI ALL,
I think everybody love the WT Amadeus or Versalex included me,
But recently i think if WILLIAM can give more data,like OVERHANG ................etc,is it can make the Amadeus or Versalex to next level

Sam

Hi Sam,

William uses an OH of 0.5" for the "ideal" Amadeus setup.

Wilson

http://welltemperedlab.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/tonearm-geometry/

[gagamut]

HI Charlie,thanks for advice,and i have already got the DPS,Auditorium Mat (the Auditroim Mat is really good,ultra quite)and my Amadeus is sitting on Kripton audio board
want to know how to DIY the DPS cable?can post some pic?what kind of the plug?where i can bought?
so may be next target is good RECORD CLEANER,or power conditioner,so any one try UBERBUSS??

[threadkiller]

Hi Sam,
I'll send you a photo if I can figure out how to post one.... It's basically some heavier gauge wire with a tad better connectors on that someone made for me. I needed a much longer length than supplied because my table is wall mounted about at chest level and I needed the dps closer to the floor.  He got the parts at an electronics shop that sells bulk wires, connectors, that type of thing....nothing fancy, yet it does sound better than what is supplied.

[mbskeam]

But Sam, the reason Firebaugh set it as fixed was to take the guesswork out of it for the majority of cartridges, and users. He used over 20 different cartridges in his testing and calibrations. Perhaps some, like yourself, could correctly align . Many couldn't- even though they think they can.
Everything would have to be redesigned in order to grant your wish. Best to switch tables if that worries you too much.

are these cartridges known? is there a list?
I've read this a few times, just wondering.....

[watercourse]

HI ALL,
I think everybody love the WT Amadeus or Versalex included me,
But recently i think if WILLIAM can give more data,like OVERHANG ................etc,is it can make the Amadeus or Versalex to next level

Sam

Sam,

As you probably know, there's no "magic" in aligning cartridges, which is why you asked about overhang. Since there is no standard for mounting hole-to-stylus distance, some front-to-back as well as lateral adjustment is necessary for aligning individual carts to Baerwald, Lofgren, and Stevenson alignments.

Firebaugh has used a large number of cartridges to develop his own alignment. If you work with statistics, you'll know the minimum sample size is 24 in order to allow any analysis. Without Firebaugh publishing any findings, one's best guess is that he found some type of central tendency for his sample population based on % distortion relative to offset angle, and this is how we have 19 degrees. Whether or not this works for all cartridges probably matters less than whether it works for the carts you have at hand.

I've had good experiences using Firebaugh's 19 degree alignment, but there are caveats. One is that the mounting holes do allow some freedom, so there may be some drift from perfect alignment, unknown to users without tools or ability to measure.

Also, there is freedom in aligning the pivot - golf ball - which of course has a domino effect on aligning cartridges. Unfortunately, manuals and forum posts are not 100% helpful, and worse, manuals have contradicted themselves in how to align carts. Depending on the level of understanding of forum posters, you will find ideas perpetuated that may or may not be helpful to your situation. Lack of data of course also doesn't help.

The bottom line is to trust your ears. Tools make your alignment efforts repeatable. I've found a 20 degree alignment and ensuring a 224 S-P distance to be the best for my Shelter and Benz carts. However, the stock setup is "close enough" I'm sure for most carts.

Anyone that has read the literature will understand that no alignment using an offset angle is perfect, otherwise why would we have 3 "standard" alignments to choose from?

[watercourse]

I would encourage anyone interested to read Gilson's 1981 paper, which is in agreement with Firebaugh's approach of finding a balance between angular error-related distortion, and other tracking-related errors. Unfortunately, this paper came out at the end of the turntable's dominance in musical playback, and so I don't think there has been any follow-up research as Gilson points towards. However, it was a divergence from the norm provided by Stevenson and others, who focused mainly on reducing tracking angle error.

http://www.audiomods.co.uk/papers/gilson_alignment.PDF

Put simply, Gilson wrote that in reducing angular tracking error to achieve the lowest distortion, one necessarily increases lateral tracking error. They are inversely related. So there is no free lunch, one has to also control lateral forces, and one has to find the best compromise between the two where audible distortion is minimized.

Based on my comparisons with other arms using the same cartridges, I believe that Firebaugh's tonearm design is consistent with Gilson's redirection away from focusing simply on reducing tracking angle error, and instead, onto the interplay between angular error, lateral forces, and resultant distortion - which may not even be audible below a certain level. The fluid bath itself of course damps distortion, and what I've found is a very controlled, musical arm that tracks better than most arms I've used, and is much easier to adjust than most arms I've used once dialed in.

Like Firebaugh, Gilson's approach starts from an assumption that the type of distortion, in this case the second harmonic, is likely inaudible even at 5-10%. In the blog I linked to in my earlier post, Firebaugh gives the example of 5 deg tracking angle error producing only 0.2% distortion, again primarily the innocuous second harmonic.

The graphs in the blog are hypothetical and provided for example only, not based on experiments from the actual Amadeus arm itself, as he states tracking angle error used for the illustrations is 20 degrees (!). Firebaugh could have provided more helpful information in his blog, based on his actual findings rather than theory. But in practice, his arm really does deliver the goods, even though a fixed tracking angle does have me scratching my head. Using as a basis the decades of study that Gilson, et al. have directed towards tonearm design, one possible rationale for the arm's level of performance is in its control of lateral forces and distortion.

IMO, using a golf ball as half of an arm pivot, placed into a viscous damping bath - both of these together acting as the pivot - clearly deserves more study. Even though he doesn't make much of antiskating in his manual or his blog entries, I think Firebaugh's arm is so successful because he has found a way to decrease lateral forces by increasing lateral drag or inertia, accomplished by setting the arm pivot itself into a viscous damping fluid. In addition, antiskate force is provided in the twisted thread from which the arm hangs, but this is minimal compared to other arms I have used, and is also subject to the same inertial forces from the fluid.

Now, assuming that the lateral skating forces are effectively controlled by both the viscosity and the twisted thread trying to unwind, this leaves a lot more room for error (literally) in getting tracking angle right. Given the complex relationship between overhang, offset angle, and pivot-to-spindle distance, Firebaugh's decision to provide only fixed mounting holes, at a predetermined angle, when cantilever lengths can be so radically different, without providing a list of cartridges that he has tested and their associated parameters, invites controversy.

So, the owner of the WTL arm can trust that Firebaugh's experiments with 20-odd cartridges includes all possible ranges of overhang distances, and just place the golf ball as close to center as possible, mount the cart at 19 degrees, adjust slight until satisfied, and be done with it. Or, one can do this, listen to results, and then methodically use models to find alternative, possibly improved alignments based on observed problems and deficiencies using specific carts. This is what I have done, and interestingly, my final alignment is consistent with the WTL mounting template provided in the Simplex manual - and against conventional wisdom provided in this thread not to use that template. The only caveat is that I have good tools to do this, in the Feickert protractor, loupes, lights, and lots of experience.

Again, the blog info and the experiences given by others on this forum are based on Amadeus arms or its variants, and so they may hold true if you have an Amadeus, GTA, or Versalex. The Simplex arm is different, and I have found that one size does not fit all. Maybe you're not satisfied with sibilance, IGD, or something else with one of your carts. Don't be afraid to try something different, I followed conventional wisdom, but was able to find a better fit.

[gagamut]

thanks Watercourse.very detail

but after Charle's(Treadkiller) telling.i think no need concerned too much because William make a brilliant design,
one more things,in my experiment i found if you have Tracking error you can adjust the counterweight more or lower,

[watercourse]

Sam - the bottom line is to trust your ears above everything else. Glad it has worked out for you!

Always remember what Einstein said: “Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.” 

[rob400]

Always remember what Einstein said: “Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.” 

There's not much chance of you doing that friend 

[watercourse]

I believe it's better to provide opinions and experience with supporting ideas. Much better than speaking out of school, or oversimplifying which unfortunately happens a lot with these tables.

It's probably also a bit of a stretch for me to think that a real discussion could take place at this forum too, which is also unfortunate.

[mick wolfe]

Follow Charlie's (Threadkiller) advise Sam and if your Amadeus sounds amazing then overhang mustn't be a problem. Right!

I have to agree with Charlie as well.  Don't over think the overhang issue and enjoy. The only other tweak I did aside from the Auditorium 23 mat was to replace the original counterweight with the XTC counterweight from England. Both of these didn't break the bank and took things up a notch or two.

[gagamut]

recently i bought two AUDIOPRISM QUITE LINE, it is a noisy filter,after plug two Quite Line to different Outlet,and listen again ,i found the blackground is more black,and the bass is more clear,it's worth .