[Mark Korda]

Hi, Have any of you noticed the recent evolution of linemans face masks? How many bars on your mask to you have to have to look cool? Or how many bars on your mask to you have to have so you can't look. It makes no sense to make ones self vision impaired doesn't it? I know who started this, LT, not Lawrence Taylor but the long time running back for San Diego L. Thomas. When I looked at his facemask a few years ago all I could think of is Darth Vader. Then about 2 years ago the New York Giant defensive lineman, I can't spell his name but his last begins with a U came out with what looks like was used when Sparticus was fighting. Football has stressed not to use the helmet as a weapon lately so whats this all about. Anyone remember Y.A. Tittle with a small plexoglass strip for a face mask? If you have seen modern day Rugby you can see prototypes of simple helmets, not all wear them, that look like Red Grange wore. Rugby players don't tackle with spear type body launching you see in the football leading with the face. I think it's time to launch some new rules that bring football back to it's origins or law suits might destroy the game as well as face masks........what do you folks think.......Mark Korda

[Pete Schumacher]

The face masks tend to keep opponents fingers out of your eyes.

Going back to a helmet with no face mask would rapidly reset the game since these pretty boys would start having to worry about busted noses.  Concussions would probably be reduced as well.

[Rob Babcock]

I honestly think that in 15 years NFL players won't wear helmets at all.  If that doesn't happen the NFL might not be around in 20 years.

[RDavidson]

OK. I understand it seems like rules and safety are killing the game, but this way of thinking is rather backward. It is safety and rules that are allowing the game to continue. You have to step back and realize the brutal stuff these guys put their bodies through, and it is getting worse and worse. There's a reason the average NFL player's career is like 5-6 years. People are getting more and more athletic, ie the speed of the game is increasing. This means there's an increased risk of severe injuries now more than ever before. Then you have guys like Suh, who are out to end opponents careers (sooner) if possible. It's messed up. Now tell me, would you take the field without a helmet, let alone full pads against 300 lb dudes who can run a sub 4 second 40 yard dash?

[rajacat]

A 300 hundred pounder running a sub 4 sec. 40 ?..I doubt it. I don't know of any sprinter that has  run a sub 4 sec. 40.
Fastest 40 in the 2013 combine was 4.27 sec. by Marquise Goodwin... a wide receiver.

[Mudslide]

http://www.giants.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/The-story-behind-Justin-Tucks-Facemask/b02d5a11-6e46-40a8-897a-8c71cfcd6dc5

[RDavidson]

A 300 hundred pounder running a sub 4 sec. 40 ?..I doubt it. I don't know of any sprinter that has  run a sub 4 sec. 40.
Fastest 40 in the 2013 combine was 4.27 sec. by Marquise Goodwin... a wide receiver.

Dude, I was exaggerating for the sake of making a point. So to be technical, here's one example of what I was talking about : Warren Sapp. 40 time = 4.69 seconds (perhaps even a little faster when you factor human timer error). 300 pounds.

I know Warren was a bit of a freak of nature (at the time) which goes back to my point about the game getting more dangerous. Athletes are getting bigger, stronger, and faster all the time. There will be more Warren Sapps (plural) as the game evolves. People, quite literally, put their lives and health on the line every time they set foot on the field. Helmets will never go away. In fact more engineering and design is needed, even today.

Again, (now that we have technicalities of my earlier statement laid out) I must ask : Would you (or anyone in their right mind) set foot on the field without a helmet, let alone pads.........?

[Rob Babcock]

Mostly it would be like rugby- a pretty rough game with a fraction of the long term disabilities of American football.  Here's the problem; you can armor up a player like a gladiator.  Helmet.  Knee pads.  Should pads.  Elbow pads.  Thigh pads.  You name and you can pad it.  What you get is 300 lb guys using their entire body as a weapon, especially the helmet.  But no helmet can protect your brain.  A concussion is literally your brain sloshing around your skull.  You can't pad your way out brain injuries.  In fact, many doctors and scientists say all the pads are leading to more serious injuries.  When you armor up a person so that they don't feel pain when they collide at a combined speed of 50 mph you're encouraging them to do it more.

The traumatic brain injury problem and 50 year life expectancy for football players would disappear if we got rid of their helmets.

[Mike Nomad]

Rob, I was just working up an almost identical post. +1 on yours.

[RDavidson]

Mostly it would be like rugby- a pretty rough game with a fraction of the long term disabilities of American football.  Here's the problem; you can armor up a player like a gladiator.  Helmet.  Knee pads.  Should pads.  Elbow pads.  Thigh pads.  You name and you can pad it.  What you get is 300 lb guys using their entire body as a weapon, especially the helmet.  But no helmet can protect your brain.  A concussion is literally your brain sloshing around your skull.  You can't pad your way out brain injuries.  In fact, many doctors and scientists say all the pads are leading to more serious injuries.  When you armor up a person so that they don't feel pain when they collide at a combined speed of 50 mph you're encouraging them to do it more.

The traumatic brain injury problem and 50 year life expectancy for football players would disappear if we got rid of their helmets.

Great points, and I understand what you're saying, but we all know that football will never become like rugby. Football is a violent sport, and we all know how much we Americans love our violence. Couple this with competition, history, and sense of pride. The way the sport is designed won't change. It will just get faster and more dangerous........as it has since its inception.

Yes, I've seen / read about the same issues regarding helmets. This is why there's a great need to develop helmets that are designed to absorb impact / reduce the speed at point of impact.........which seemingly can't be done without making the helmets huge and out of Tempurpedic foam. My feeling is that technology will progress and a good solution will eventually come about, without the sport becoming like rugby.

With that said, the use of padding and protection (like gladiators) is not the problem. At the core, the problem (with injuries / fatalities) is fundamentally the sport of football itself. It is dangerous by design. Like many other sports, it has become more dangerous as the athletes and the game has evolved. Simply stating that in order to resolve the problem, the game must be reduced to rugby protection standards to reduce injuries and fatalities, is similar to stating that Nascar should be reduced to go kart racing to reduce the number of injuries and fatal crashes. In essence, yes, I agree with you, it would likely solve the "problem" because the actual sport (as it was designed) would no longer exist. People wouldn't pay to watch these American rugby matches any more than they would pay to watch go kart races. An element of danger / violence has to exist in some sports or they're no longer sports.

Better protection is the solution. Not the problem.

[Rob Babcock]

Personally I think it's just a matter of the culture changing.  Remember ten or fifteen years ago?  Ronnie Lott coined the phrase "WOOOO HITS!".  A good hit was called a 'de-cleator'.  The morons at ESPN would play a video reel of guys getting cheap-shotted and/or blindsided while chanting, "he got JACKED!"  Implementing rules where you couldn't cheap shot the QB three seconds after the ball was caught was pejoratively called 'putting a skirt' on the player.  Basically a pure macho culture that celebrated the violence of it.

But personally, that's never the part I found interesting.  I'm more interested in the finesse of a Barry Sanders or the timing of a perfect post throw from Tom Brady.  That appeals more to me that the cement-head style of bone breaking play.

I think the culture will have to change.  Sure, we're probably fine with highly paid grown ups signing a waiver acknowledging that they understand they risk serious brain injury.  After all, there are billions of dollars at stake.  But are we cool with college players dying after a few concussions?  How about high school players?  Is a few dead kids in Pop Warner part of the price of doing business?  The thing is that we know the dangers now; you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.  Some high profile ex-players have stated they won't let their kids play tackle football. 

Once the risks become common knowledge I think there will be a change from the grassroots up.  If kids can't use the helmet as weapon and play balls-out at the lower levels it will be harder to institutionalize it in the pros.  It will probably be a gradual change but I don't think it can be avoided.  Otherwise football will be sued out of existence.

As a parallel, consider smoking.  Once it seems like everyone smoke.  In the 50's my Grandma's doctor actually prescribed smoking for her to deal with her nerves!  You could smoke in the theater, in restaurants, pretty much everywhere.  And Big Tobacco looked like they'd keep a stranglehold on the country forever.  But just look at it now!  Billion dollar lawsuits, public smoking virtually banned, warning labels everywhere and smokers are vilified.  This all happened in about the span of a generation.

It just takes a sea change in the culture.

[RDavidson]

Well said. And I don't disagree with you. I guess I'm just pessimistic about the culture changing. It's just a big circle of self destruction that revolves entirely around money. Let's face it. No one would play or aspire to play in the pros if there wasn't money in it. While the NFL is controlling the money, the change has to start with them, not at the lower levels. Starting the change at the lower levels would only create a bunch of kids not prepared to handle the culture of the NFL. For every guy that stands up and says "I won't subject myself to the dangers of the sport" there are 10 guys with nothing better to do willing to take that guy's place. And that's just the truth. I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I'm willing to bet that MANY players in the NFL don't come from middle income (or higher) households. The NFL (or pro sports in general) can be the golden ticket for these people. As long we have hungry people in this country, we will have people willing to put their lives on the line to better their situation.

Funny how a conversation about safety gear used in football actually has issues rooted FAR deeper than what is on the surface. Good discussion.

[Mikeinsacramento]

No one would play or aspire to play in the pros if there wasn't money in it.

That's pretty much what they did for 75 years.  As late as the '50's guys were getting paid in free beer.

[RDavidson]

Getting paid in free beer.........
Something is wrong with this sentence.
The beer wasn't free if they had to earn it.
I know what you meant. I tease.

Back then those guys actually had "work" (ie paying jobs to put food on the table) in addition to "playing" football on the side. Now, athletes play for work and work for play. Things can't be like they used to, obviously.........but someone could probably start a minor league on the premise of getting paid in beer.

[Mark Korda]

Hi, I started this question and it started out slow and really grew! Mudslide, thanks for the heads up, I had the wrong lineman for the Giants.  Here's another enigma; a few years ago I noticed in the pros and college football these new style helmets have ridges,like Ruffels! Can you imagine a high speed helmet to helmet hit when the roundness of the helmet might glance the impact away, but think if the rubber coated iron bar of the facemask hit that helmet ridge square on!..think about it, that would break a neck vertebra like a old west hanging if the secured chin strap did not give away. Bad design! I hate to say this but it's kind of what did Dale Earnhardt in in a different way apart from football...new neck restrainers are mandatory I think because of that bad day. So whats next, a bubble wrap style of helmet? Football needs a new innovation to survive....all your answers were great!....Mark Korda...

[JerryM]

The NFL actually weighed in on custom facemasks earlier this year. In short, players cannot wear custom facemasks unless they have a legitimate medical reason to do so.

Ladainian Tomlinson is notable because he was the first player to wear a blacked-out eye shield. Ladainian wore the eye shield so defenders could not see his eyes, and a big pissing match started over who could wear such gear. Ladainan, and his doctors, argued to the League that the mask was *medically necessary" (due to light induced migraines). To this day, a player needs a Doctor's note to wear such a shield.

During all of that ruckus, Ladainian made his Vader mask. Now, his mask looks amateurish at best. In any case, the League just recently ruled very similarly - Medically necessary "custom" gear must be accompanied by a doctor's note that has been screened and approved by the NFL.

As for comparing Rugby players to NFL players... Line up the game, please. Let's play the worst NFL team against the best rugby team. Any day, any time. Skins or shirts, helmets or heads. This is one game I'd like to see. 

[Mark Korda]

Hi Jerry, I 've watched a lot of rugby and there are no Vince Wilforks playing rugby. It's constant running and you don't see any big guts hanging over belts. The rugby guys seem to like califlower ears as a badge of honor like some grapplers. Another thing is sportsmanship. It is a must in Rugby to party with the other team after the match. You never see that in football. When I was young and started watching the NFL, late 60's,there were only a couple 300 pounders. Sherman Plunkett OT for the Jets for example. Fat but not fast. Then came the steroid era. You didn't see any fat guys, they were all ripped, Matusak, Alzado,both gone now but never bordering obese. Now with the ban of steroids you see a new breed of player, in the line, massive. Creitine,HGH who knows? There is a high school team around here with a 300 pound line average. When I played, early 70's, our all state guard weighed 150 pounds. I'm losing my point here, and I'm not a rugby player, but their in way better shape, play more for sport and fun, and seem to have longer life spans. I've seen a lot of guys in their 60's still out rucking it up out there....just something I noticed Jerry, take care....Mark K.

[RDavidson]

Hi Jerry, I 've watched a lot of rugby and there are no Vince Wilforks playing rugby. It's constant running and you don't see any big guts hanging over belts. The rugby guys seem to like califlower ears as a badge of honor like some grapplers. Another thing is sportsmanship. It is a must in Rugby to party with the other team after the match. You never see that in football. When I was young and started watching the NFL, late 60's,there were only a couple 300 pounders. Sherman Plunkett OT for the Jets for example. Fat but not fast. Then came the steroid era. You didn't see any fat guys, they were all ripped, Matusak, Alzado,both gone now but never bordering obese. Now with the ban of steroids you see a new breed of player, in the line, massive. Creitine,HGH who knows? There is a high school team around here with a 300 pound line average. When I played, early 70's, our all state guard weighed 150 pounds. I'm losing my point here, and I'm not a rugby player, but their in way better shape, play more for sport and fun, and seem to have longer life spans. I've seen a lot of guys in their 60's still out rucking it up out there....just something I noticed Jerry, take care....Mark K.

I have to chime in here. The guys (in both sports) are built the way they are to best perform (in the positions) in the sports they're playing. In terms of football, those 300 pound linemen are in incredible shape. Underneath the "padding" is unbelievable muscle, strength,and athleticism. Again, I have to bring up Warren Sapp. 4.69 second 40 time. 300 pounds. You have to step back and realize how much strength and power it takes to run that fast, let alone weighing 300 lbs. Usain Bolt's 40 time is something like 4.12 seconds and he doesn't weigh nearly as much as Warren. The added weight these guys carry not only protects their muscle tissue, but it also makes them harder for the guy lining up against them to run through, or a running back to run through. When you have running backs who can easily squat 500+ lbs and bench 300+ pounds, the linemen have to be bigger and stronger. It's just the way football has evolved that these guys are built the way they are. It is not a matter of being out of shape. It is a matter of being built for the job at hand. Believe it or not, most of these guys actually have to work at keeping the weight on their bodies, because they have such high metabolisms (due to all the muscle they have and the fact that they must train all the time). This all goes back to the evolved speed and power at which football is now played. It just can't be compared to rugby in any way shape or form. Nor can it be compared to itself from about the 70's era and earlier.