[RichardS]

After a six week plus break-in, I finally got a chance to do some critical listening comparison’s of the digital output of the Olive Musica. I invited a friend over and we listened to recordings ranging from vocal audiophile fare (Rebecca Pidgeon, Sarah K) to Jazz (Winton Marsalis, Tord Gustavsen) to pop/rock (Jim Croce, Rikki Lee Jones).

My DIY CD-PRO2M (which uses the top Philips transport mechanism) served as the challenger, and a Genesis Lens was the wild card here. The Pro-2m has been the best transport I’ve heard in my system to date, which has included EA and Modwright-modded Sonys, Micromega and Esoteric products). The Pro2m was fed by a VH Airsine into a Haley conditioner, and sent its digits to my Tact pramp via a Poiema!! RCA digital cable (a Marigo Sig mat was used). The Olive has a captive cord (with a couple Onlines attached) fed by the Haley, and sent its digits via the excellent Marigo 5.8 RCA. A Stealth Sextet AES/EBU connects the preamp to a Tact amp into Selah Incredarrays (full details of the system can be seen at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1123102440&read&3&4&).

Switching was easy as the Tact remote allows instant input changes. A CD could be cued up and the Olive started playing the same songs at the same time, allowing for single-blinded back-and-forth sampling to the listener in the sweet spot (my friend). The disclaimer here is that different digital cables were used, as I didn’t have multiples of any one cable, though all are quite good.

The Olive and Pro-2m actually sounded pretty similar. The Pro-2m had slightly better bass drive, and slightly better top-end presence and extension (cymbals were more prominent) but was also a bit more etched and grainy in the highs. The Olive portrayed midrange textures better and was smoother and richer; image outlines were more fluid and relaxed, and voices were more present and intimate. The music felt less clinical and more cohesive. I felt I could happily live with either, but in my solid-state system I slightly preferred the Olive on most selections. How much advantage was conveyed by the Marigo I’m not sure.

Next, we compared the Olive with and without the Genesis. Among other things, the Genesis stores/reclocks in a RAM buffer, so I wasn’t expecting much difference, as I figured the hard-drive storage of the Olive was already minimizing jitter. Well, the differences here were easily as great as with the Pro-2m—but were in the reverse direction continuum already experienced with the Olive vs. the Pro-2m. This time, the Genesis added comparatively more warmth and smoothness to trumpet and vocals (using 20-bit dither 2 option) as well as an increased sense of ease and authority. The soundstage also felt more enveloping. The Olive alone was slightly lighter and brighter.

Commentary:
I was pleased that the Musica easily held its own against a very good transport like the Pro-2m. I like having my whole record collection on the drive for easy access (though eagerly anticipating a PDA-style remote). I was somewhat disappointed though, that the Genesis improved the sound further—both philosophically and financially—as I was hoping to be able to sell the Lens and its power and digital cables. Oh well, such is the life of an audiophile. How much of the improvements are jitter-related, and how much something else the Lens is doing, I’m not sure. Some further experiments are in order. FWIW, my friend and I were in general agreement with our assessments, though I probably thought they were more pronounced than he. Also, I can’t help wondering if digital and power supply mods would provide similar improvements (or different?) to what the Lens does.

[avta]

Thank you Richard. It's always helpful to read this type of detailed comparison. Any chance you could put a Squeezebox into the mix?
Guy

[RichardS]

Guy...
I'll see if that can be arranged....I briefly had a Bolder-modified SB3, but sold it to get the Musica so I wouldn't have to use my computer. A friend has a Squeezebox and I'll see if he'd like to bring it over sometime to compare.

[hometheaterdoc]

Richard,

I should have both a Transporter and regular Squeezeboxes on display soon.  So we can likely set something up if you want...

[tianguis]

Richard:

      I recently had an Olive Symphony in my system and I too use TacT RCS and a CD-Pro2m I built. I've performed exactly the tests you've done with slightly different results.
      First, I tried both with two different digital coax cables, Stereovox and Bolder. Depending on where they were, I could clearly hear differences. Next, I tried two mediocre optical cables from the same manufacturer. In that case, the Olive was prferred by a nose, but getting that slight improvement is what we pursue, n'est-ce pas?
       As an aside, at a recent NY Audio Rave, we tried about six digital coax cables, including my Stereovox, an Acoustic Zen Silver Byte and four others. When the Stereovox was put in, it fleshed out the mids and was preferred by most. The source was either an Olive or an Oracle transport. I feel even good cables can affect the outcome of A/B tests.

Regards,
Larry Welsh

[Jon L]

Guy...
I'll see if that can be arranged....I briefly had a Bolder-modified SB3, but sold it to get the Musica so I wouldn't have to use my computer. A friend has a Squeezebox and I'll see if he'd like to bring it over sometime to compare.

The kind of differences you heard could easily be attributable to AirSine power cord vs. stock cord and Poiema!! vs. Marigo. 

Too bad Musica has a captive cord.  Even my regular PC has a detachable power cord, and power cord and PC makes a BIG difference in my system..

[Gordy]

Hi Jon,

It isn't a captive cord but, just as bad, a two wire/prong detachable.  There are adapters available... I think I'll just hard wire some VH Audio bulk cord or a Volex for starters.

[RichardS]

John and Larry...

I'm very aware that the digital and power cords have their influence (as I had stated)--otherwise I wouldn't waste my money. Unfortunately, it's not common for most of us to have multiple identicle cords laying around to do comparisons the way they should be done. If I decide not to pursue further mods, I'll look into a new PC or adapter for the Olive, though the Haley certainly helps even things out a bit, as does the Onlines.

That said, the fact that the Olive held its own without and upgraded cord makes the comparisons that much more significant (to me). If anyone wants to lend me an extra Marigo or Poiema, I'd be happy to redo the experiment. I may switch the Marigo and Poiema and see if I get similar results.

I suppose what impresses me with my initial tests is:

1) that the Olive held its own against a top transport even without a 'good' power cord. My initial explanation was that there really is something to hard-drive transport systems.

2) that the lens made as much improvement as it did. I'm a bit stumped here because if my assumption to number 1 above is true, why is the Lens having this effect. Sure...another power cord and cable, but I suppose as n end-user the final concern is what sounds best to me. At this point, it's the Musica with the Marigo, but I'll consider the possibility of further improvements to be had with mods--which may be (?) money better spent than with the Lens or the Marigo (BTW, the Lens had a Black Sand Silver Ref on it).

I'll repost after exchanging the two digital cables, if there is anythingh to report.

[jhm731]

Great review. FYI- Mauimods.com now has a Musica and is working on mods for
the PSU and digital out. It should be very easy to replace the two wire AC power
input with a standard IEC.

[jackthecat]

Great review.
You could check out what Red Wine Audio are doing with their mods to the Olive too....battery powered etc.

[LightFire]

Even when there are misconceptions about what "digital out" means, a blind test helps to prove that both outputs where exactly the same. Small perceived differences where psychological.

Different power cords are irrelevant for audio quality comparisons.

Digital signals transmitted trough different coaxial and/or optical cables in good working condition are EXACTLY the same (transmission errors will be detected, corrected and re-send). No sound difference will occur.

[tianguis]

LightFire:

        Your post certainly adds considerable value to this thread. Your input is weighty, to say the least. Also, your avatar seems appropriate.

Regards,
Larry Welsh

[LightFire]

LightFire:

        Your post certainly adds considerable value to this thread. Your input is weighty, to say the least. Also, your avatar seems appropriate.

Regards,
Larry Welsh

What I stated is the truth. Some people have misconceptions about what digital means. Some people may think that digital audio consists only in another technique to record sound, the same way that carving sulks in a vinyl disc is one and recording electric analog signals in a magnetic tape is another. The difference between digital and analog is a lot bigger than that. When you transmit a digital signal from a DVD player, for example, to a amplifier no sound is transmitted. An encoded information that tells your DAC how to make the sound is transmitted instead. And because the DAC detects any error that occurred during transmission and "asks" to the source to retransmit it until it gets it right. It makes irrelevant anything that comes before the digital audio conversion phase. Unless you have defective parts in your "source system", but in this case problems would be easily detectable.
I will post some information about digital audio in a near future to clarify some points.

I notice you liked my Avatar!

I like The Stooges too.

[Occam]

Larry - I couldn't agree more. I find the Shempian, non-empircal school of Onnanistic exploration an interesting atipodal technique.

Perhaps LightFire will explain in detail the experiments he has personally conducted.
I just saw the above reply, and now I understand why we've had perfect sound forever for the last 20+ yrs.

[tianguis]

What I stated is the truth. Some people have misconceptions about what digital means. Some people may think that digital audio consists only in another technique to record sound, the same way that carving sulks in a vinyl disc is one and recording electric analog signals in a magnetic tape is another. The difference between digital and analog is a lot bigger than that. When you transmit a digital signal from a DVD player, for example, to a amplifier no sound is transmitted. An encoded information that tells your DAC how to make the sound is transmitted instead. And because the DAC detects any error that occurred during transmission and "asks" to the source to retransmit it until it gets it right. It makes irrelevant anything that comes before the digital audio conversion phase. Unless you have defective parts in your "source system", but in this case problems would be easily detectable.
I will post some information about digital audio in a near future to clarify some points.

I notice you liked my Avatar!

I like The Stooges too.

LightFire:

        Thanks for enlightening us and revealing the truth. Those who've been participating in this thread will certainly be thankful to finally realize what they've been doing wrong for so many years. Where were you when we needed you? Digital transmission isn't sound? Analog is? Can you say "jitter"? Can you say capacitance-resistance filtering?
       With all due respect, I suggest you take your sophmoric, Luddite agenda and peddle it somewhere else. In the meantime, I can hardly wait for your further clarification.

LW

[zybar]

Paul and Larry,

You guys crack me up.   

Thanks for providing my entertainment for the night.   

George

[tianguis]

George:

       Any time!!!    I'm just trying to keep the neighborhood safe from muggers.

Larry

[RichardS]

Olive and CD-PRO2M: Further Experimentation (and thoughts):

I exchanged the Marigo and Poiema digitals from the previous session—so the Musica and the Poiema fed input #1 on the Tact preamp, the CD-PRO2M and the Marigo fed input #2 and the Musica/Genesis Lens fed input #4 (using a Nordost Glass Toslink out of the Olive and a Straightwire Infolink or Sonoran Plateau AES/EBU from the Lens). Same music, plus some Al Lee and Loreena McKinnett.

This didn’t significantly change my initial observations. It appears that (IMS and to my ears) the transport differences impart slightly greater variations than the cables. That said, the differences were somewhat less pronounced this way than they were with the cables the other way. The Marigo apparently has a softer/airier way with detail and a more refined sound, more natural, more ease.

The Musica/Poiema however, was still smoother and less etched. The overall musical impression was more ‘organic.’ I was less aware of the individual instruments and more aware of the collaborative performance. The stage felt wider. Voices were incrementally fuller and warmer.

The CD-PRO2M/Marigo was more present and up-front. I felt closer to the performers. The individual instruments stood out slightly more. Cymbals and guitars were quicker and sharper with more edge, more dynamic impact. The voices were lighter (more lit) and somewhat thinner. The presentation was cleaner and more ‘lively.’ Detail was equally present both ways, just emphasized slightly differently.

The Musica/Genesis Lens still added more space and envelopment, and smoothness (please don’t equate smoothness with ‘boring’ as this was not the case). Sort of combined the dynamics of the PRO2M and added increased smoothness and texture. Slightly more diffused, in a similar vein as using dipole speakers (though not to the same extent). Apparent depth was increased, though width not as wide as the Olive without the Lens (the width thing was strange, as I would have expected the PRO2M to display more width as it was more upfront, but instead the Musica [alone] was the widest).

With the Marigo now on the PRO2M, the gap was closer, but salient features remained the same. As I said previously, all sounded quite nice and preferences would be a matter of individual/system taste and compatibility. My preference on most music was still with the Musica/Lens (hey, I used to own dipoles and still like a sense of space and envelopment, even though I’ve since been won over by the considerable virtues of line arrays).

I’ll bring the Musica over to Shane’s some time to compare to his Squeezebox/Transporter once it arrives and breaks in, and will report back.

[RichardS]

One of my issues with the Musica is not being able to read the display from my listening seat 16' away. I've been waiting patiently for the Olive PDA announcement, but in the meantime I've stumbled across a reasonable (and free) substitute. As you know, pressing the 'menu' button on the remote twice enlarges the display, but still not large enough to comfortably see and scroll.

Well, my wife's opera glasses (weak binoculars) does the trick just fine. It sits on the table next to me and when I want to find a new CD to listen to, I pick up the glasses and it's clear as day. I tried some regular binocs, but they were a little too strong and things jiggled a bit when only holding with one hand (the other holding the remote). I'm getting used to it enough that I question whether I'll even want to pay the price of admission for the PDA. And I'm spinning discs less and less these days.