[es347]

Last night we attended a Lee Ritenour concert at a very small venue--a supper club that seats maybe 100.  It was Lee on guitar, John Beasley on keys, Melvin Lee Davis on bass and Sonny Emory, drums.  The concert was one of the best we've attended and we have attended a ton, trust me.  It's the 4th time we've seen Lee in concert and he has lost nothing.  The sidemen were outstanding with a special nod to the drummer Sonny Emory....he is phenomenal. 

Having said all that the real reason for my post is to revisit the topic of live sound versus what we all listen to at home.  The golden fleece always seems to be to recreate the live sound in your listening room.  I have always believed that that is the unreachable star...no way can you reproduce what we heard last night I don't care how powerful your amps, how big your speakers...it's a totally different experience especially when dealing with amplified sound at a concert.  If it's visa-vi acoustic unampllfied like perhaps a string quartet or solo acoustic guitar, you've got a shot at recreation but amplified, "balls to the walls"...no way.  The only way I know how to describe it aside from the obvious visual nature of it is that it's not only heard but felt. 

Don't misunderstand, I love sitting in the sweet spot and hearing all the nuances of a recording, etc.  I'm simply saying that they are two completely different experiences...live vs. "memorex".  Ok fire away 

[WireNut]

Agreed. It just ain't the same.

[geowak]

I went to see The Akron Orchestra play at EJ Thomas performing arts hall not too long ago. The sound of that place is spectacular. I agree that few components can match that music, if any. I think there are some people who love the technical rather than the music. They love the equipment, maybe not so much the sound. But to each his own in this
hobby. I suppose some are sound engineers....?

[es347]

Just to tie a bow around this thread, my initial post was not in any way meant to denigrate big statement speakers.  Far from it.  I along with myriad other a'philes would commit murder to own a pair of VR100XS's...well perhaps not murder but any number of misdemeanors.  Those babies would get a guy closer to the sonic golden fleece than anything else out there...IMO.  I own the VR5 Anniversaries 1.5 and still get the proverbial thrill up my leg sitting in the sweet spot but it's not the same as sitting in the sweet spot at a live event.  Frankly I don't want it to be.  That live sound (amplified) is a distorted sound, something that none of us would tolerate in our listening rooms.  But that distorted sound coupled with seeing it...feeling it...is something very special.  But at home I am perfectly content sitting front and center and hearing a well-recorded performance with all the accuracy my system is capable of reproducing.  Like I said before, two entirely different experiences.

[geowak]

Just to tie a bow around this thread, my initial post was not in any way meant to denigrate big statement speakers.  Far from it.  I along with myriad other a'philes would commit murder to own a pair of VR100XS's...well perhaps not murder but any number of misdemeanors.  Those babies would get a guy closer to the sonic golden fleece than anything else out there...IMO.  I own the VR5 Anniversaries 1.5 and still get the proverbial thrill up my leg sitting in the sweet spot but it's not the same as sitting in the sweet spot at a live event.  Frankly I don't want it to be.  That live sound (amplified) is a distorted sound, something that none of us would tolerate in our listening rooms.  But that distorted sound coupled with seeing it...feeling it...is something very special.  But at home I am perfectly content sitting front and center and hearing a well-recorded performance with all the accuracy my system is capable of reproducing.  Like I said before, two entirely different experiences.

Yeah I don't begrudge anyone with big speakers, big amps or big anything. Nor I am critical about the system one puts together.
I love live music and I think it's my choice, all things being equal. The fact that we can have music in our homes, in the car or in the gym is a plus that I love as much as the next person. But it's not live music and it does carry (as you pointed out) the experience one gets from the event. Also I think this is a GREAT thread. It brings some basic questions to the table about live music, compared or contrasted to recorded music.

[jarcher]

One thing obviously that a recording is not going to ever reproduce fully is the audience interaction - and that's a significant part of the experience  / difference of a live event, whether it's a football game or a concert.  I remember the first time I went to a live NFL game, I realized what the difference was vs watching it on TV - the crowd noise / interaction.  Last night I was at a live concert, and while I probably could have gotten it to sound better at home w/ a good recording (though probably not as loud), again it was the energy / noise of the crowd interaction that would never be fully reproduced at home. 

BTW - what prompted to you to open this thread on the VSA circle vs, ahem, the Music Circle?  Guess you'd expect me to ask that being the Music Circle facilitator.........

[es347]

I guess because this is my favorite haunt and is a topic relevant to any circle...call me crazy eh?

[JackD201]

One thing obviously that a recording is not going to ever reproduce fully is the audience interaction - and that's a significant part of the experience  / difference of a live event, whether it's a football game or a concert.  I remember the first time I went to a live NFL game, I realized what the difference was vs watching it on TV - the crowd noise / interaction.  Last night I was at a live concert, and while I probably could have gotten it to sound better at home w/ a good recording (though probably not as loud), again it was the energy / noise of the crowd interaction that would never be fully reproduced at home. 

BTW - what prompted to you to open this thread on the VSA circle vs, ahem, the Music Circle?  Guess you'd expect me to ask that being the Music Circle facilitator.........

I have a similar feeling regarding watching boxing matches. I actually see more and hear more on PPV but the energy in an arena filled with rabid fans is really something else.

Like Gavin said these are two distinct experiences.

[Letitroll98]

Frankly I don't want it to be.  That live sound (amplified) is a distorted sound, something that none of us would tolerate in our listening rooms.  But that distorted sound coupled with seeing it...feeling it...is something very special.  But at home I am perfectly content sitting front and center and hearing a well-recorded performance with all the accuracy my system is capable of reproducing.  Like I said before, two entirely different experiences.

You can absolutely recreate the live experience at home.  A few thousand watts of pro amps, some XLR's and 1/4" connectors using mic cable, and some big honkin' PA speakers, a big plasma display, some concert Bluerays, and you're there.  As noted in your post, this would be somewhat unsatisfactory in the home environment because the scale is so different.  We are creating an illusion, a picture if you will, of the live performance in our home, only on a much smaller scale.  Most of us find that reproduction most satisfying using detail, soundstaging, and tone to paint the picture.  However a significant minority prefer the dynamics and impact of live performances, thus we see high efficiency, high SPL speakers, horn drivers, etc. in many systems.  And as noted in your post, if you have the scratch you can purchase a healthy dose of both.  Even then it's not completely the same because the scale is so different, and why string quartets sound so good in the home, the scale is similar.  And the most accurately reproduced picture is a singer and a guitar recorded at home, it's exactly the same scale.   

[geowak]

You can absolutely recreate the live experience at home.  A few thousand watts of pro amps, some XLR's and 1/4" connectors using mic cable, and some big honkin' PA speakers, a big plasma display, some concert Bluerays, and you're there.  As noted in your post, this would be somewhat unsatisfactory in the home environment because the scale is so different.  We are creating an illusion, a picture if you will, of the live performance in our home, only on a much smaller scale.  Most of us find that reproduction most satisfying using detail, soundstaging, and tone to paint the picture.  However a significant minority prefer the dynamics and impact of live performances, thus we see high efficiency, high SPL speakers, horn drivers, etc. in many systems.  And as noted in your post, if you have the scratch you can purchase a healthy dose of both.  Even then it's not completely the same because the scale is so different, and why string quartets sound so good in the home, the scale is similar.  And the most accurately reproduced picture is a singer and a guitar recorded at home, it's exactly the same scale.

I have found many instruments seem very, very difficult to reproduce with audio gear. The first one that comes to mind is a piano.
Also, I've never heard the Grand piano sound reproduced well....

[SundayNiagara]

I have found many instruments seem very, very difficult to reproduce with audio gear. The first one that comes to mind is a piano.
Also, I've never heard the Grand piano sound reproduced well....

Futterman's and Quad's will do the trick!

[sharpsuxx]

You can absolutely recreate the live experience at home.  A few thousand watts of pro amps, some XLR's and 1/4" connectors using mic cable, and some big honkin' PA speakers, a big plasma display, some concert Bluerays, and you're there.  As noted in your post, this would be somewhat unsatisfactory in the home environment because the scale is so different.  We are creating an illusion, a picture if you will, of the live performance in our home, only on a much smaller scale.  Most of us find that reproduction most satisfying using detail, soundstaging, and tone to paint the picture.  However a significant minority prefer the dynamics and impact of live performances, thus we see high efficiency, high SPL speakers, horn drivers, etc. in many systems.  And as noted in your post, if you have the scratch you can purchase a healthy dose of both.  Even then it's not completely the same because the scale is so different, and why string quartets sound so good in the home, the scale is similar.  And the most accurately reproduced picture is a singer and a guitar recorded at home, it's exactly the same scale.

I sort of agree, I think you can recreate a mediocre live performance purely acoustically with just a ton of power and impact and a bloated bottom end.  As far as sound stage for a small ensemble un amplified live show like a string quartet or singer and guitarist you can sometimes with very good speakers and recordings simulate the soundstage.  Unfortunately very few speakers if any I have heard have the soft touch to reproduce this coherent sound stage while being able to deliver the impact of say a stand up bass or a guitarists rap on the body of a guitar.

As far as replicating piano, nothing I have ever heard does justice to a live recording of piano, and few sound engineers if any record it to a point where it sounds anything like a piano concierto.   It may be a limitation of the microphone technologies as much as the reproduction technologies.  It almost always sounds like your head is sitting in the middle of the keyboard instead of in the audience, and when they are recorded properly again there are very few speakers that have that type of soft and hard touch to reproduce the full experience.

Very cool topic, I too LOVE live music, in fact my little headline "I guess live music is a healthy addiction." is from Chris Trapper after my wife and I drove 7 hours to catch Martin Sexton and Chris Trapper at a show in some little tiny venue in Little Rock AK.  It to this day is the best show I have ever seen.

[es347]

..hey thanks for the heads up on Martin Sexton.  I listened to his stuff on youtube and amazon and bought several of his cds.  Great songwriting and I love his vocal range.

[jimdgoulding]

Deleted.  Been said already.

[WireNut]

It's that massive slam/depth/authority that make's it live. It's not loud, it's just sounds so big and powerful. The ease and authority of the the music makes it so intense.

[htradtk]

Great post Gavin! There is a small place in our state capital of Annapolis that I've seen three shows, Ottmar Liebert, Michael Franks and Spyro Gyra. All three were excellent, I was about 15 feet from the stage, nothing like it, my friend does something very interesting. He writes down all of the songs performed at the show then he will burn a CD of all the songs performed in the concert from start to finish. Great idea for some great memories.

Henry

[es347]

Two more concerts since this post.  We saw Michael McDonald at the Palladium in Carmel, IN then just this past Tuesday we saw Victor Wooten at the Jazz Kitchen in Indy.

The Palladium:  http://www.thecenterfortheperformingarts.org/

The Jazz Kitchen:  http://thejazzkitchen.com/

The MM concert was more of an event than anything close to a performance.  He still has the pipes but with a much more limited bandwidth...hey he's in his 60s so no surprise there.  I've always liked Michael but the concert was a bi of a disappointment for me.  He sang several Doobie Bros songs and I swear it took a couple of measures into some to even recognize the song.  That and after a few songs his voice began to wear me out.  But the most distracting thing was seeing all the baby boomers (a group of which I am a card-carrying member) "dancing" in the aisles...oh my.  Anyway, MM is one performer I much prefer to listen to here at home where one has a somewhat better chance of hearing the lyrics.

Victor Wooten is arguably the best bassist on the planet and one heckuva nice guy.  He had two drummers, keyboards, sax/trumpet , bass (duh) and a very good female vocalist named Crystal Peterson.  At one point there were 4, count 'em, basses being played...whew.  Now I have never been a big fan of the bass as a solo instrument but Tuesday night was an exception.  VW is so darn skilled on the instrument, he can hold one's attention on a solo.  The sound was very good and the energy level was off the charts.  All in all a very fun evening....plus the JK food is truly gourmet.

Both concerts confirmed my initial contention that a live amplified performance, at least the likes of which are mentioned in this thread, is a distinctly different experience from what we (I) can create in a listening room.  Two entirely different experiences and I enjoy both immensely 

[Housteau]

I think we have to pick our battles here.  I agree that we cannot, or should we want to attempt to accurately reproduce all forms of live music in our home listening rooms, and for all the reasons already mentioned by others above in this post.  However, I also believe that with the right choices we can come quite close, close enough where it really matters anyway.

A few years ago I started to do my own live recording spurred on by the desire to have quality uncompressed music to both enjoy in my own room and to help keep me stay grounded to what real music actually sounds like.  It is of real benefit to be where something was recorded when it was recorded and then to listen to it very soon afterwards in your own space.  It also helps when I have the artists over and get used to how they sound in my room just speaking naturally as well as singing from time to time.  Depending upon the scale of the works of course it is surprising how close the recordings can be.  I attempt to put things together so that the performer(s) appear to be right there in my room with me taking up the same acoustic space as they did at the venue.
 
I was very fortunate to know and work with the late Brian Cheney of VMPS.  Brian always felt that the true test of a loudspeaker system and all the electronics supporting them was how well they could reproduce all the dynamics of live music.  So, starting in 2009 at THE Show part of the CES in Las Vegas he started having live performances in the VMPS room.   The performers were recorded in front of the audience a single song at a time, and then instantly played back for them to compare as a live vs recorded event.  Was it perfect this first year?  No, but most of the time is was close enough to prove the point he was trying to make.  As a side note, there is a problem when recording and playing back within the same room.  During the recording the room acoustic is recorded and during playback that same room acoustic signature is added in a second time to what the audience hears.

After that first year I started doing the recordings for him along with Jim Harger.  We had two separate recording systems, one served as back up for the other and it also allowed us to compare different microphones, microphone patterns and 24/ 88.2 PCM vs DSD.  The shows in Vegas that followed that first one progressively got better culminating in 2012 with what I feel was the best one.  With room partners Wyred 4 Sound and the also late James Bongiorno, the demos became very convincing.

[es347]

Good post Housteau..