[Jeff V.]

We left off with an example of a stylus/cantilever substitution that didn't work out IMO, but that's a judgement call and could have been evaluated differently.  I read a similar description on Agon about a different cart w/ruby upgrade and hyper-detail, and the person loved it. To be honest, I would have kept the 304 and used it with on-the-fly VTA, if it was a better match with my AHT phonopreamp. The 2 top Denon carts have very low output and relatively high inductance/resistance. This inductance interacts with cable/preamp load capacitance and can cause high frequency overload - oscillation or intermodulation distortion in some preamps with extended bandwidth. This is more common than you might think. I read another similar description of the DL-S1 in an evaluation, and a prominent poster on Asylum loads his DL-S1 at 30 ohms, the impedance of the cart. That results in effectively reducing the already extremely low output, in half.

In all fairness to Soundsmith, he does really nice work, is extremely knowledgeable and completely honest. I had a couple of long conversations with him and he'll go to great lengths to make sure you understand the considerations and are happy with the results.

I'm sure that many more people have good results in upgrading to an exotic stylus/cantilever, than those that have bad results. I've reached the conclusion that this depends on the specific cart and the specific change. Not all carts are created equal.  It's your examples of retip/rebuild experiences that will help all of us.
neo

   

One thing to keep in mind & to be aware of is setup.  If going with the TOTL replacement from Soundsmith great care should be used while setting up  VTA and azimuth.  To get the best sound this is a must.  These are by no means plug and play.  If not setup properly you are truly missing out.  Of course this is true with all cartridges but with the precision of Soundsmith's top tier replacement I have found it is even more critical.

Jeff

[neobop]

One thing to keep in mind & to be aware of is setup.  If going with the TOTL replacement from Soundsmith great care should be used while setting up  VTA and azimuth.  To get the best sound this is a must.  These are by no means plug and play.  If not setup properly you are truly missing out.  Of course this is true with all cartridges but with the precision of Soundsmith's top tier replacement I have found it is even more critical.

Jeff

Completely agree. People expect it to be identical to the original, but even if you're having a new tip installed on an existing cantilever, azimuth, SRA, will probably be slightly different. Re-tippers have tools like micro-comparators to get it near perfect, but this is done on the bench, not in play. The re-tip might be more precise than the orig. 

Most MC mfg have a trade-in policy and you basically get a new cart.  This often costs 1/2 the orig price of the cart.  That could be a considerable sum compared to a re-tip. So, if you're using a $5K cart, you might want to consider your options.
neo

[neobop]

I was hoping we would get more re-tip/rebuild results and opinions from end users.

Soundsmith usually recommends staying with the same cantilever if it's an exotic type (boron, sapphire etc) and it's still serviceable. A cartridge is voiced with a particular cantilever material and changing that material may or may not result in improvement.  On the other hand you may want to change the sound of your cart.  In general, the shorter the cantilever, the less this change will be.

I've done a lot of experimenting with AT MM carts - changing cantilever material and tip shapes, trying to get a handle on what does what.  It's a little more complicated with MMs, because of capacitance loading combined with frequent use of cantilever resonance to augment amplitude response.

More on this later.  Any experiences, examples on this subject are welcome.
neo

[neobop]

I was just reading about a Soundsmith level 3 ruby/OCL rebuild on a Shelter 501.  The 501 comes with a boron cantilever and I believe, a .3 x .7 elliptical.  The person said it was definitely an improvement - better detail.  Another person says a 103d has similar improvement with a level 3. In that case, overall feel of the cart was possibly a little leaner, but an overall improvement.

A more rigid cantilever will tend to be more detailed, exact. The longer the cantilever, the more pronounced any change will be.  A shorter cantilever tends to make the selection much less critical. I read about, but never saw, a film made yrs ago by a cart mfg, of cantilevers in action.  This film was made using microscopic interferometry (or something like that). The description was bizarre - dramatic gyrations, cantilevers bending around and practically folding on themselves. It's the movements of the cantilever that excite the generator to produce an electrical signal, so it's not hard to imagine that  change in general terms. The exact change gets more complex, much more.

It seems to me that of the higher end carts that get a SS ruby cantilever, level 3 is more successful percentage wise. Maybe you need the greater contact tip to go along with the cantilever, but this is based on anecdotal evidence so it's just the impression I get.
neo 

 

[jmowbray]

I was hoping we would get more re-tip/rebuild results and opinions from end users.

Soundsmith usually recommends staying with the same cantilever if it's an exotic type (boron, sapphire etc) and it's still serviceable. A cartridge is voiced with a particular cantilever material and changing that material may or may not result in improvement.  On the other hand you may want to change the sound of your cart.  In general, the shorter the cantilever, the less this change will be.

I've done a lot of experimenting with AT MM carts - changing cantilever material and tip shapes, trying to get a handle on what does what.  It's a little more complicated with MMs, because of capacitance loading combined with frequent use of cantilever resonance to augment amplitude response.

More on this later.  Any experiences, examples on this subject are welcome.
neo

Great thread Neo. I've sent a number of carts (Shelter 501, Grace F-9E's, Signet TK100LC) to Soundsmith for rebuilds (usually level 2 - ruby/LC) and have, in all cases, felt the rebuild provided an upgrade over the stock cantilever and stylus. I didn't have a working cart to start with on the TK100LC (snapped ruby cantilever) but figured the level 2 rebuild would be very close to original state. I also recently sent a Signet TK10ML with a worn stylus to Peter for a retip (not rebuild) of the original boron cantilever with a LC stylus and it sounds gorgeous - probably as close as I could get to the original state (the only difference being LC vs ML). I was a little concerned about the amount of adhesive used for the retip but it doesn't seem to affect the playback any but again I don't have a stock cartridge to compare with.

Regarding vintage Signet and AT carts, I've been collecting a few (TK7E and SU, 20SLa and SS, AT 155LC and 160ML, AM40s, etc. and am very interested in learning more from your experiences switching out the various stylus assemblies that are available and will fit these carts. My Signet TK10ML's, TK9LCa and TK100LC are another matter as replacement stylii are virtually non-existent - though there are still a few ATN-22's (beryllium cantilever with elliptical stylus) around.

Jack

[neobop]

Great thread Neo. I've sent a number of carts (Shelter 501, Grace F-9E's, Signet TK100LC) to Soundsmith for rebuilds (usually level 2 - ruby/LC) and have, in all cases, felt the rebuild provided an upgrade over the stock cantilever and stylus. I didn't have a working cart to start with on the TK100LC (snapped ruby cantilever) but figured the level 2 rebuild would be very close to original state. I also recently sent a Signet TK10ML with a worn stylus to Peter for a retip (not rebuild) of the original boron cantilever with a LC stylus and it sounds gorgeous - probably as close as I could get to the original state (the only difference being LC vs ML). I was a little concerned about the amount of adhesive used for the retip but it doesn't seem to affect the playback any but again I don't have a stock cartridge to compare with.

Regarding vintage Signet and AT carts, I've been collecting a few (TK7E and SU, 20SLa and SS, AT 155LC and 160ML, AM40s, etc. and am very interested in learning more from your experiences switching out the various stylus assemblies that are available and will fit these carts. My Signet TK10ML's, TK9LCa and TK100LC are another matter as replacement stylii are virtually non-existent - though there are still a few TKN-22's (beryllium cantilever with elliptical stylus) around.

Jack

Hi Jack, as Kurt Vonnegut would say, welcome to the monkey house.

Peter Ledermann does nice work. He retipped the Monster Genesis pictured at left, with his optimum contact. The orig cantilever (still there) is a diamond dust coated boron tube, not rod. It also had a micro ridge.  I too was concerned about excess glue and figured it would add to tip mass, but I really can't tell the difference from the orig. It was like I was in a time machine and went back to '88. My all time fave cart was resurrected from the dead.

I think you have to consider cantilever changes on an individual basis.  A poster on Agon said his level 2 Virtuoso rebuild was too bright.  A lot of people seem to make snap judgements instead of trying to work it out, although I can't say that was the case.  Even if the compliance is exactly the same, a new tip/cantilever often requires VTA/SRA and azimuth change, and breaking in a new suspension. The guru of the thread wound up with a boron/Gyger, similar to the Maestro - boron/micro and said that was best. I don't think he tried ruby.

Nice collection of carts. From what I know, most of them seem well suited for Ruby.  Maybe you took a chance with the Shelter, but apparently most people like a little more resolution to go along with the refinement.  Does the F-9E have the same generator as the ruby?  Seems like it would be a nice upgrade.  I had a TK10MLII (wish I still had it), I thought the MKI had a beryllium cantilever. I think you might have lucked out with that one, glad it worked out.  Maybe it wasn't that big a change with the orig cantilever. The TK10 is a remarkable cart. Prob as much detail as any cart on the planet and it can resolve it a coherent way. 

The biggest problem with some MMs is when they use cantilever resonances to augment amplitude response. I think you're more likely to have this with a higher inductance cart.  I'm not positive about that, but a long aluminum cantilever is almost always used for this. Shorter cantilever have a higher resonant freq and the sound is less cantilever dependent.  By that I mean the shorter cantilever will be more rigid and accurate, and not color as much due to length.

More about this later, thanks for posting your experiences.
neo 

[jsm71]

I'll toss my recent SS rebuild experience into the ring.  I played my ClearAudio Virtuoso Wood (black) to death and wear was the issue.  I opted for the level 3 Ruby/OCL rebuild.  First of all they beat their wait time forecast by a couple of weeks so that was good.  Secondly, their packing and shipping was great.  The cart was "mounted" in a small acrylic cube to protect it during shipping, a nice touch.  Comments about the ruby cantilever being fragile are correct.  I didn't know what to expect but was stunned by how thin and translucent it is.  I knew I was going to have to be careful mounting and adjusting everything to protect this going forward.   

The other immediate observation right out of the box was the cantilever angle seemed different from the stock aluminum one.  This proved to be correct after I got it mounted.  The VTA was too forward.  I needed to lower the post on my arm to adjust.  This proved out in listening as well as I tried listening before this adjustment.  Peter's instructions that came with his shipment were clear and appreciated.  He admitted that the arm adjustment I mentioned might be necessary to allow the bass to come through fully.  Indeed, without dropping the arm the sound was too treble oriented and it was clear visually that the stylus was too forward.

One issue that I now have relates to the arm lift mechanism.  By dropping the arm to a correct VTA the arm is now only maybe 1/4 inch off the record surface when the lift is all the way up.  It still works fine but it seems too close and makes me a little nervous when sliding it over to a desired track.  Before, the arm was comfortably above the surface when raised.  Any more drop and I wouldn't have a functioning lift.  Phew!  I also had to make adjustments to my Q-up arm lifter but that was less stressful.

Per Peter's recommendations I am also now tracking about 1/4 gram lighter, which should be good for wear.  Fully adjusted and with some break-in (surprised that it was necessary) behind me I can report that the sound is more than worth the cost and effort.  I have always liked the Virtuoso cart but this rebuild brought improvements.  The upper frequencies are more extended with no hard edge.  Midrange seems deeper.  More sound is exposed in the deep layers of the recording.  Bass is very controlled and clean.  Overall the timbre of the cart seems unchanged, but I equate the upgrade to be similar to using a power conditioner for the first time.  The quality meter was nudged up some with more music coming through.

I'm a happy customer.  This was my second dealing with SS.  I had a vintage B&O table before my current one and I learned of this company researching cart replacements for that.  The cartridge I bought for that Beogram table was amazing.

Post break-in note to self:  The bass response is what took the majority of time to come through during break-in.  I may revisit the VTA and experiment to see if I can gain back a little arm lift without impacting the sound.

[E4T]

Ok....

Honestly, I don't have the knowledge, vocabulary, experience or set-up that most of you have in this thread, but wanted to chime in as I just got my Clearaudio Maestro Wood MM back from Soundsmith yesterday. 

I went with the level 2 - ruby/LC rebuild.  It has been a long while since I've had the cartridge in action as it needed repair for almost a year before I finally sent it off.  Given this, any sort of side by side (before/after) is impossible.  But man.....it sounds SO much better than I remember!!!  I'm only 3 hours in, so I am still making adjustments, but I'm thrilled.  And blown away by the quality of the work.

So all I'm gonna say for now is SOLID! 

As I break it in and "finalize" the the set up, I'll try to weigh in on my impressions and the sound a bit more.  Insecurity/Vocabulary be damned!

-Eric

[jsm71]

I did finalize (I think) my VTA on my Virtuoso over the weekend and I was overcompensating for the change in cantilever angle.  I believe I have it dialed in pretty good now.  The SS rebuild is clearly worth it.  I would imagine the Maestro improvements would also be notable, although that cartridge started out with a better stock cantilever than the aluminum one I had on the Virtuoso.  My advice is to ballpark the setup and just let it play for a week or two.  I found the break in to be pretty quick.  Tweak the settings after break in.   Although I wasn't without my cart as long as you I quickly got my ears familiar to an Ortofon budget cart and "forgot" the details of the Virtuoso.  It didn't matter though.  I know this rebuild sounds better across the board than my stock cart.  SS does great work.

Please do share your impressions after break in.

[neobop]

Interesting couple of posts about Clearaudio MMs.  Thanks.
Assuming these are version 1 carts (V2 came out recently) they have identical generators.  The Maestro has more wood and sports a boron/microline. The Virtuoso has a stylus/cantilever similar to the AT-95 but with a slightly sharper elliptical.  BTW, the new V2 seems to be the same generator with stronger magnets for greater output. 

The difference between Soundsmith level 2 and level 3 is the tip, which is line contact vs optimised line contact (micro).  Previous to this thread I only heard of someone having a level 2 on a Virtuoso.  He said it was too bright.  I suspect he didn't work out the necessary adjustments. The rake angle of the needle with respect to the cantilever is often different, as Jsm71 said, and you should really approach it as a new cartridge.  Glad to hear it's working out.  There is no exotic replacement stylus available for these bodies and I think I'll send my Virtuoso in for a stylus lift.
neo

[E4T]

I did finalize (I think) my VTA on my Virtuoso over the weekend and I was overcompensating for the change in cantilever angle.  I believe I have it dialed in pretty good now.  The SS rebuild is clearly worth it.  I would imagine the Maestro improvements would also be notable, although that cartridge started out with a better stock cantilever than the aluminum one I had on the Virtuoso.  My advice is to ballpark the setup and just let it play for a week or two.  I found the break in to be pretty quick.  Tweak the settings after break in.   Although I wasn't without my cart as long as you I quickly got my ears familiar to an Ortofon budget cart and "forgot" the details of the Virtuoso.  It didn't matter though.  I know this rebuild sounds better across the board than my stock cart.  SS does great work.

Please do share your impressions after break in.

Great advice, thanks.  I did a little more tweaking after my post today, but I'm really pleased right now, so think it really is best to let it break in a week or two as you suggest.

I really didn't mean to wait so long before the repair.  I also went with an Ortofon for the time between (found a great deal on a 2M Black soon after the "dust cloth incident," made much more difficult to swallow as it wasn't me dusting).  And although I have some decent to high praise for that cartridge, and what it was capable of......the CA Maestro seems another level entirely. The 2M was great in a lot of ways, but I think this rebuild will be much more capable of some sort of "Awe Factor."  Time will tell.  I will make sure to share my impressions.  Until then......gonna take your advice before any more significant adjustments.

Thanks again.

[E4T]

Interesting couple of posts about Clearaudio MMs.  Thanks.
Assuming these are version 1 carts (V2 came out recently) they have identical generators.  The Maestro has more wood and sports a boron/microline. The Virtuoso has a stylus/cantilever similar to the AT-95 but with a slightly sharper elliptical.  BTW, the new V2 seems to be the same generator with stronger magnets for greater output. 

The difference between Soundsmith level 2 and level 3 is the tip, which is line contact vs optimised line contact (micro).  Previous to this thread I only heard of someone having a level 2 on a Virtuoso.  He said it was too bright.  I suspect he didn't work out the necessary adjustments. The rake angle of the needle with respect to the cantilever is often different, as Jsm71 said, and you should really approach it as a new cartridge.  Glad to hear it's working out.  There is no exotic replacement stylus available for these bodies and I think I'll send my Virtuoso in for a stylus lift.
neo

My cart is V1.  I really was curious about the V2 before I finally pulled the plug on sending the cart to SS, but the decision seemed like a no brainer given the cost difference and the great things I had read about the rebuilds/retips from SS.

Because the time difference has been pretty significant, I am actually really enjoying treating this as a brand new cartridge.  Because honestly, it really feels and sounds like one.  Like I said, I've got some breaking in to do, but so far the cart is sounding anything but too bright to me.

Thanks.