[Patriot666]

Hello all.  I wanted to introduce myself.  I came across this forum while searching for Songtower reviews.  I am considering ordering Salk speakers due to all of the rave reviews.  I have been interested in audio/video for a long time, but only recently would have the funds to venture out of the big box store's offerings.  I don't have a huge budget so I am considering a pair of Songtowers, unless I'm convinced that it's worth going bigger right off the bat...possibly the HT3's.  I've never heard any Salks, but I really love the look of the HT3.  It's hard to imagine spending this kind of money on speakers without auditioning them first, but that's one leap of faith I might have to take.

I do have 2 questions: Does Salk require full payment up front, or a deposit?  What's the typical wait time for a pair of speakers?

Thanks and nice to meet all of you!

[charmerci]

The moderator will probably move this to the Salk circle where you can get a lot more detailed answers.


The HT3's require a lot (read expensive) power 200+ watts/channel.


You can contact Jim Salk directly. www.salksound.com

[JLM]

Welcome aboard!

The way to shop (hunt) for audio gear is:

1. Educate your ears (learn music and what aspects of audio you yearn for)
2. Have a decent place to listen in (except headphone users of course)
3. Research all the products/vendors out there and at least some of the theory
4. Audition (hopefully at home) prior to purchase

Buying speakers first makes sense, but there are no perfect speakers, and they should be matched to the attributes of the musical genres to you prefer as well as the available room.  No point in buying huge speakers or speakers that need to sit away from walls for tiny rooms or have deep bass response when you only listen to guitar.  Avoid speakers that exaggerate bass/treble (that can initiatively impress but 'gets old' fast).  And no point in investing tons into equipment you can't enjoy (conflicts with family/neighbors).  Most audiophiles have way more gear than the space could possibly justify.  Jim Salk is a good guy and sells good custom stuff, but his woodworking craftmanship will probably put the rest of your furniture to shame (and is that what you want to invest in?).  Do look around to match gear with the rest of your life.

The next problem is finding an amp that really synergies (matches up well) with the speaker.  Please consider active speakers instead.  Note that studios use active designs but have a 'dry' versus 'entertaining' sound that is preferred for home use.  Active speakers have vendor matched amps built into the speakers have have several important performance advantages (greater dynamics, flatter frequency response, unbelievably deep/full bass, better imaging/phase response), are less complex for the user, take less space, and save money.  Most are stand mounted 2-way designs, allowing you to add separate subwoofer(s) which is the ideal setup anyway.  Good examples under your price range include Adam 3AX, AVi 9RSS, Focal CMS 40, Paradigm A2, and Quad 9AS (some of which include pre-amp/DAC functions so all you need is to add a digital source). 

Do your homework, match gear to your situation, and listen for yourself.

[Nick77]

 I think there is a Salk owners thread for home auditions. Where do you live?

[roscoeiii]

Take the time to listen to as many possible speakers and styles of speakers as you can. So much of speaker choice comes down to personal preference. Some here love Salk speakers, others are huge fans of electrostatic speakers, still others like single driver designs (in spite of their many limitations). You will find some speakers to be pretty forward and in your face (very exhilarating), while others are more laid back (less fatiguing).

Of course your ability to do this will be affected by where you live. You could check out dealers nearby, or often forum members who own speakers you are interested in are generous enough to invite you to their homes for a listen. Shows like RMAF and AXPONA are also a great option for hearing a huge array of speakers, and with the number of shows out there you have a decent chance of finding a show not too far from where you live (or shows make fun little weekend vacations).

But figuring out what you like about speakers through listening is an important first step.

[Patriot666]

Wow thank you guys for such informative and fast replies.  I realize I left out my pertinent listening interests.  First off I live in the SW suberburbs of Chicago.  My listening/home theater/living room is 17x17 ft.  I mainly watch movies in 7.1 via my slightly upgraded home theater.  I find that I really critique the sound while listening to 2 channel music.  I listen to mainly rock/pop/metal, usually audition using Pink Floyd's High Hopes.  So far I have been able to audition PSB T6 and Imagine T at a local store, both of which I liked, but I wasn't wowed.  Suprisingly after I came home I played the song through my Cerwin Vega VE12's through MarantzSR6006 reciever using my Sony S590 Blu Ray player as a CD player and the difference in quality was not as profound as I expected...and that was with the store running much higher quality source components.  That's why I am shopping the higher end speakers like Salk.  Oh and no need to bash CV I am happy with what I got for the little money spent.

I'm not a pro when it comes to audiophile terms, meter readings and all of that...trying to learn though.  But I do have a somewhat trained ear as I have spent a lot of time recording as a musician.

I need to go back and listen to some bookshelfs, powered and unpowered.  I could go with a higher end bookshelf than floorstander for the money.  I'll be buying an SVS PB13 Ultra sub for my home theater soon as well.

[roscoeiii]

Well, well. SW suburbs huh? Then you have many many options for listening to speakers. I live in Hyde Park, and perhaps we can get you up here to hear my Von Schweikerts. There are also a number of dealers in the Chicagoland that you can check out. As well as other ACers in addition to myself. And if you can hold off that long, AXPONA is coming!

[roscoeiii]

I find that I really critique the sound while listening to 2 channel music.  I listen to mainly rock/pop/metal, usually audition using Pink Floyd's High Hopes.  So far I have been able to audition PSB T6 and Imagine T at a local store, both of which I liked, but I wasn't wowed.  Suprisingly after I came home I played the song through my Cerwin Vega VE12's through MarantzSR6006 reciever using my Sony S590 Blu Ray player as a CD player and the difference in quality was not as profound as I expected...and that was with the store running much higher quality source components.

Helpful info. Can you put your finger on what about the PSB T6 and Imagine T didn't wow you? That'll help with other recs.

[Patriot666]

You've got me all amped up now roscoe!  Thanks and I would love hear your speakers some time.  Also I didn't even know about The audio expo.  That would be perfect timing too as I planned to purchase around that time frame anyways.

To answer your question about the PSB's I really enjoyed the mids and highs of both the t6 and imagine t.  There was a noticeable difference between the two, with the imagine t being much smoother, but I didn't hear enough difference to justify the price hike.  The t6 also had better bass, with a larger cabinet.  Neither had the bass output of my CV's, but they are sloppy and boomy...I guess you could say very non musical/tight at all.  I guess my dissappointment was that I could not hear more than what I hear from my CV's.  The sound is very similar.  I could just be happy about this and keep the CV's...but I'm determined to spend lots of $ on new speakers. 

[geowak]

Welcome aboard!

The way to shop (hunt) for audio gear is:

1. Educate your ears (learn music and what aspects of audio you yearn for)
2. Have a decent place to listen in (except headphone users of course)
3. Research all the products/vendors out there and at least some of the theory
4. Audition (hopefully at home) prior to purchase

Buying speakers first makes sense, but there are no perfect speakers, and they should be matched to the attributes of the musical genres to you prefer as well as the available room.  No point in buying huge speakers or speakers that need to sit away from walls for tiny rooms or have deep bass response when you only listen to guitar.  Avoid speakers that exaggerate bass/treble (that can initiatively impress but 'gets old' fast).  And no point in investing tons into equipment you can't enjoy (conflicts with family/neighbors).  Most audiophiles have way more gear than the space could possibly justify.  Jim Salk is a good guy and sells good custom stuff, but his woodworking craftmanship will probably put the rest of your furniture to shame (and is that what you want to invest in?).  Do look around to match gear with the rest of your life.

The next problem is finding an amp that really synergies (matches up well) with the speaker.  Please consider active speakers instead.  Note that studios use active designs but have a 'dry' versus 'entertaining' sound that is preferred for home use.  Active speakers have vendor matched amps built into the speakers have have several important performance advantages (greater dynamics, flatter frequency response, unbelievably deep/full bass, better imaging/phase response), are less complex for the user, take less space, and save money.  Most are stand mounted 2-way designs, allowing you to add separate subwoofer(s) which is the ideal setup anyway.  Good examples under your price range include Adam 3AX, AVi 9RSS, Focal CMS 40, Paradigm A2, and Quad 9AS (some of which include pre-amp/DAC functions so all you need is to add a digital source). 

Do your homework, match gear to your situation, and listen for yourself.

+1 Yeah what he said! Well done, great advice.

[roscoeiii]

  I could just be happy about this and keep the CV's...but I'm determined to spend lots of $ on new speakers. 

Oh, don't worry, spend enough time around here, and you will have more suggestions than you could ever want for how to spend the cash you are determined to spend.

BTW, you may not know that Music Direct is located in Chicago. I hear that their new space includes a show room. I'd put them on any list of Chicago places to visit. Lots of great folks over there.

[JLM]

You should try to read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" where he discusses in room bass response and room shape.  Basically your square room isn't good (try to 'soften' at least one side to reduce the reverb from one of the dimensions) and avoid a single bass source (it's like waves from a single hand pushing water along the length of a shallow bathtub, the throughs represent up to +/- 20 dB spl differences).

If you're running an A/V system, I'd just stay with passive speakers with at least two subs and invest in quality small speakers for the front left/right positions.  For A/V having a matching center channel would be important (but avoid horizontal MTM designs as off center response will vary with frequency/position from the two mid/woofers). 

Rock music is known for high spls and 60 Hz booming (like at a concert).  Speaker selection can be difficult because there are very few examples  of un-amplified concerts/recordings (which is always the gold standard, otherwise you can only at best compare speaker versus speaker).  The essence of rock is exaggeration, but some find that to be fatiguing (the mind finally giving up trying to reconcile what it knows to be right versus what is being heard), so some avoid the PA sort of sound for more accurate speakers.  That's your call, but something to consider as you invest and might mellow with age (which happens to the best of us   ).

Living in Chicagoland you have tons of resources at your deposal, so have fun hunting.

[JerryLove]

The HT3's require a lot (read expensive) power 200+ watts/channel.

84db @4ohm. They aren't the most sensitive speaker out there by a good deal.

That said : Power is cheap.

The next problem is finding an amp that really synergies (matches up well) with the speaker.

With some few exceptions, amps come in "sufficient" and "insufficient". Survey 100 random Audio-circle posters, and I'd be surprised if a single one has a speaker you couldn't drive well with a Peavy IPS amp.

Note that studios use active designs but have a 'dry' versus 'entertaining' sound that is preferred for home use.

Abby Road, the largest studio in the world, is known for it's use of B&W 800-series speakers in many of their rooms. They are not active.

Active speakers have vendor matched amps built into the speakers have have several important performance advantages (greater dynamics, flatter frequency response, unbelievably deep/full bass, better imaging/phase response), are less complex for the user, take less space, and save money.

Not a single one of these is necessarily true.

[geowak]

Take the time to listen to as many possible speakers and styles of speakers as you can. So much of speaker choice comes down to personal preference. Some here love Salk speakers, others are huge fans of electrostatic speakers, still others like single driver designs (in spite of their many limitations). You will find some speakers to be pretty forward and in your face (very exhilarating), while others are more laid back (less fatiguing).

But figuring out what you like about speakers through listening is an important first step.

Yes, Yes, YES!!
Many a budding audiophile has made the mistake of NOT LISTENING FIRST. Too much hype and no account taken for personal preferences. Of course, if one has an unlimited budget to buy audio stuff like the many varieties of canned soda pop.... go have fun!!

[Patriot666]

I am taking all of your advice gents and thank you!  One more question for you...if I were to add a stereo amp to my front Cerwin Vegas's, would there be a noticeable difference?  I mean more bass at lower volumes, tighter bass, ect.  My marantz puts out 110 watts per channel, but the CV's have 12 inch woofers and I imagine more power would drive them better.  Am I wrong?

I was considering purchasing a stereo amp while I listen and shop for speakers.  Maybe Emotiva or NAD.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

[JerryLove]

I am taking all of your advice gents and thank you!  One more question for you...if I were to add a stereo amp to my front Cerwin Vegas's, would there be a noticeable difference?  I mean more bass at lower volumes, tighter bass, ect.  My marantz puts out 110 watts per channel, but the CV's have 12 inch woofers and I imagine more power would drive them better.  Am I wrong?

Larger drivers are easier to drive, not harder (all else being equal).

That said: lower frequencies are more difficult to drive (again, all else being equal).

Without knowing which CV, listening distance, and listening volume, your question cannot be answered.  I suspect that the answer is "no"; and am reasonably certain the answer is "even if 'yes', you'd do better adding a powered subwoofer to the current setup".

I was considering purchasing a stereo amp while I listen and shop for speakers.  Maybe Emotiva or NAD.

Both good brands, but likely unnecessary. My Salk's run fine off my Marantz. So does everything I have except my N801's (and my active-crossover pair, but that's apples-to-oranges).

PS: *Love* my Salk's. Cannot say enough positive about them.

[WireNut]

Patriot666,

You've got a lot of fun and equipment to look forward to in the next 30 years or so. Wish I had AC when I started out.
Enjoy the ride to Audio Nervosa and welcome to AC.........

[HsvHeelFan]

A couple of things that might be helpful would be:

1.  What is your current audio budget?
2.  What is your current equipment?

without knowing those 2 things, it's hard for others to make recommendations.

Some people think a small budget is 1K, for others, a small budget is 10K.   

HsvHeelFan

[jarcher]

Lot of good advice here , and just to reinforce vs add much more :

1) Listen to as much as gear at stores / friends / shows etc and try to get an idea of what you like / dislike about sound reproduction. Make sure to demo using recordings you like and know. No point in buying gear that makes your favorite albums sound bad no matter how "hi-fi" it is.

This is probably counter intuitive to those new to the audiophile world who may think there's an objective improvement to be had from more expensive and supppsedly higher resolving gear. Which I think in part explains some of the enduring appeal of vinyl as a medium, tubes in the signal path or amplification, etc. These often don't measure as well, and are less convenient and sometimes more expensive than the alternatives, but for whatever reason sometimes are more pleasing to the ear - some would say "musical" - despite objectively not measuring as well as the more modern alternatives.

This is a pretty subjective hobby and there really isn't an "absolute sound" - but there often are trade offs, so it's important to know what's most important to you. That's why demoing / trying before you buy is so important before you buy - particulars when your starting out. And demoing at home in your environment with the rest of your gear is the very best option.

2) Let your ears decide for you - not your eyes. Eg I always loved the look of Martin Logan speakers but just have not heard a pair at any model level that I liked the sound of better than other even lower cost options.  And much less buy things just because they look cool or  are recommend by magazines or even friends. You need to hear / judge for yourself.

3) If you can't demo or buy from some place with a good return policy, buy used or demo models. If you can try something at home and not be out money - or with little net out of pocket if you sell it on - you'll at the very least have had cheap fun and learned something in the process.

Many who know me know I buy and flip a lot of gear (and keep too much of it as well). It's because I can move it on at little to no loss (sometimes I even make a little) means I'm not emotionally tied to something I don't like / use, and I can move on to something else that potentially makes me happier. If I were potentially to lose thousands from a bad buying decision, I would be more tempted to live with something I don't like - or worse yet trying to convince myself I do - because of not wanting to consummate the loss by selling.

So - more of general suggestions / philosophy than specific gear advice. On that front I would agree to start with demoing speakers - and even as highly regarded as Salks are - I wouldn't buy without hearing them first, eg at a show or from one of the owners on the home owners list here. Fortunately I think Salks have high resale value, so flipping if you buy used and you don't like shouldn't be too painful. But why take that risk if you don't have to? 

After the speakers I'd say focus on the source. Yeah, preamps / amps etc / cabling are important, but garbage in / garbage out.  A modest pc / laptop etc (the former better) running jriver / pure music etc software with something like an audioquest dragonfly DAC (or HRT streamer, or if your budget is higher a Schiit Bifrost).  As a source that would be highly convenient and customizable and sound great. Once you've had the benefit of remote controlling a music sever, most everything else seems like a hassle. And it is (supposedly) all about enjoying and listening to more MUSIC, not the gear..... (yeah right!)....

Best of luck to you! This can be a very fun and enjoyable hobby so long as your honest with yourself about it and watch your wallet carefully!