[neobop]

That is incorrect. Higher mass materials transmit energy more efficiently. The bit about resisting acoustic feedback is also false as far as a universal statement. High mass deigns can be designed to reduce feedback but being high in mass does not guarantee that. It does guarantee high material costs.
-Bill

It depends on the relative amount of mass to the amount of energy, and how it's coupled.   The cart vibrations travelling down the arm will indeed be converted to heat by a massive plinth if the arm is properly coupled.  A massive plinth will also tend to mitigate platter/motor vibrations much better even if the material is slate, a good conductor of energy.  This is predicated on the relative mass to energy.  If a tiny meteor hit the Earth, it wouldn't do much.  If a giant meteor hit, it could cause another ice age. More efficient transmission of energy is meaningless w/o specifics.

RE: acoustic feedback - of course there is no guarantee, but to exaggerate a point, what's going to resist a tsunami, a lightweight shack or small office building?  The reality is that both designs also use energy dissipation and coupling.  It's no coincidence that the best tables the World has ever seen, are heavyweights.  It doesn't mean that Regas are a POS, but the design theory doesn't include state of the art. 
neo

[Wayner]

Wayner, with your AR TT, do you hear artifacts you attribute to skating? Had a friend years ago who had one but my "ears" weren't as experienced then.

The AR arm is different. It had a fluid damped tonearm pivot, which in effect was the anti-skating mechanism. And it worked very well, indeed

Wayner

[Wayner]

I'm a Rega owner of a blown out P5, a fair amount of $$ invested, there are no more upgrades. It does sound great.
With that said, I agree about the overpricing on that table for what it is.
It should be made out of a Carbon Fiber honeycomb for that price.
Wait for a used one if you must have.
Around $3k I start looking at something else and I would never spend that on a Rega.

Oh, and I have no problem cleaning records with a Disk Washer brush on it because of the motor slowing down with my dual belt pulley or not.

Wait! I have to go check my money tree in the back.

My P3 platter could be stopped with a damp discwasher brush.

Don't get me wrong, I do like both brands of tables, but they certainly aren't as perfected as one is led to believe......

BTW, what would a nice VPI sound with a RB-900 on it.......

Wayner

[TONEPUB]

I couldn't be more wrong?  Gandy now cleans records and supplies height adjustment? 

Relax, the only part that was a joke was the reviewer friends quip, and that was kidding on the square.  As a reviewer you see the schmooze side of the industry.  Your defending Gandy, is proof that subjective reviewing can't be objective, especially when you have friends in the mfg biz and you're reviewing their products.  Are you personally friends with Harry or any other table mfg?  I know, we've been through this before and you can dance around the subject all you want, but it doesn't change the psychological reality of subjective reviewing.  It's not always about advertising dollars or pounds, as the case may be, Rega is big enough that they'll get the reviews and promotion anyway.  When he first started he offered relatively high performance products for budget money.  What's not to like?  High end pretensions are something else. 

Rega's approach or design philosophy isn't even his.  Nothing new here -  the low mass approach was championed by B&O, a long time ago.  Ever read their white paper?  It's much more interesting than the table design philosophy on the Rega site.  Never the less, it didn't succeed - not because it's so bad, because when guys want to upgrade, they see it's not a viable option at the top.  It's no coincidence that all of the state of the art tables for over thirty yrs, are high mass.  It's not about good and bad, it's about good and better.  Ever play with a Goldmand or Thorens Reference or other state of the art contender?  A high mass plinth absorbs vibrations and converts them to heat, it resists acoustic feedback.  If sound pressure waves can knock down the walls of Jericho, what about symphonies at realistic levels in your listening room?  I know you're aware about benefits of heavy platters.  Light platters sometimes have superior PRAT only because of drive system limitations.

The first VPI arms used wire tension to apply anti-skate.  They now come with adjusters.

Of course every mfg thinks their approach is best, except for compromises - usually due to budget considerations and price points.

I own neither Rega or VPI tables.  I usually prefer DD/rim drive.

Peace,
neo

I know most of the turntable mfrs. now.

I own 15 turntables at present, so I can't say we're any more in love with one or the other.  I'm not defending Roy at all.  He's told me to my face that he doesn't think reviews make a bit of difference in their sales or their products and he thinks most reviewers don't know a thing about hifi or audio. 

All the Rega stuff is a matter of refinement.  You can look at a P3 as a P9 built on a tight budget, or you can look at the P9 as the best P3 Rega knows how to make. 

No one has a terribly original design philosophy when it comes to a turntable.  It's a motor of some kind, a platter of some kind and a way to couple the platter to the motor.

With lots of variations on the theme...

[neobop]

I know most of the turntable mfrs. now.

I own 15 turntables at present, so I can't say we're any more in love with one or the other.  I'm not defending Roy at all.  He's told me to my face that he doesn't think reviews make a bit of difference in their sales or their products and he thinks most reviewers don't know a thing about hifi or audio. 

All the Rega stuff is a matter of refinement.  You can look at a P3 as a P9 built on a tight budget, or you can look at the P9 as the best P3 Rega knows how to make. 

No one has a terribly original design philosophy when it comes to a turntable.  It's a motor of some kind, a platter of some kind and a way to couple the platter to the motor.

With lots of variations on the theme...

IMO it would be nonproductive to continue the subjective/objective thing, so I won't. 

Rega record players have their strong points at their price, just as B&O did.  Rega probably has a better "value" table.  B&O made some outstanding carts.

There may be nothing new under the sun when it comes to record players, except refinements and innovations.  We're in the midst of a revival, which I suspect may last for decades.  Some people may scoff, but there are billions of records already out there and it's a palpably rewarding, and fun hobby.

Since the demise of Japanese turntable mfg, direct drive and idler/rim drive pretty much went by the wayside.  My Goldmund DD had a JVC motor.  I noticed you highlighted the Continuum Criterion in the mag.  That company already received some heavy duty accolades which I'm sure it needed to survive at that price.  There are two companies which are under reported which might be much better value products.  One is Teres, who now makes DD exclusively.  The other is Trans Fi, which seems to be a little more well known.  Teres tables start at $10K, not cheap but not $60K. I think Trans Fi table is $2K pounds w/o arm.  It might be difficult to get review samples, but if doable, I'm sure it would be of interest to numerous hard core fanatics, and the curious.
neo

[Berndt]

I think Roy is right.

[TONEPUB]

IMO it would be nonproductive to continue the subjective/objective thing, so I won't. 

Rega record players have their strong points at their price, just as B&O did.  Rega probably has a better "value" table.  B&O made some outstanding carts.

There may be nothing new under the sun when it comes to record players, except refinements and innovations.  We're in the midst of a revival, which I suspect may last for decades.  Some people may scoff, but there are billions of records already out there and it's a palpably rewarding, and fun hobby.

Since the demise of Japanese turntable mfg, direct drive and idler/rim drive pretty much went by the wayside.  My Goldmund DD had a JVC motor.  I noticed you highlighted the Continuum Criterion in the mag.  That company already received some heavy duty accolades which I'm sure it needed to survive at that price.  There are two companies which are under reported which might be much better value products.  One is Teres, who now makes DD exclusively.  The other is Trans Fi, which seems to be a little more well known.  Teres tables start at $10K, not cheap but not $60K. I think Trans Fi table is $2K pounds w/o arm.  It might be difficult to get review samples, but if doable, I'm sure it would be of interest to numerous hard core fanatics, and the curious.
neo

I'm a big DD fan as well.  I've got an SL1200 that has a combination of Zu and Sound HiFi mods and really enjoy it.  I'd love to get my hands on a nice SP10 mk.2 for a reasonable price, but they have gotten really popular, so you never know. 

We did review the Criterion, but honestly, I didn't think it was amazing for $60k.  It's probably the most negative review I've ever written.  However, both the small and large Continuum (which is pretty awesome, though insanely priced) both have a certain weight and texture in the LF spectrum that I've never heard with anything else.  And, unfortunately, the Continuum has pretty much fallen by the wayside.

I've always been intrigued with Teres, but they aren't sending anything out for reviews, they've never done much of that.  I totally understand from the perspective of a small company like that, they don't want to tie up the $$.  But I've always liked what I've heard from them.

Honestly, the more time I spend with different tables, the more I enjoy them.  I just like analog.  I told my wife that "I can't have a dozen cars, but I can have a dozen turntables, it takes up a lot less space..."  And, it seems I'm always discovering something new.

Thanks for bringing up Trans Fi, I'm going to ping them and see what their story is...

That arm looks awfully weird.

[neobop]

The price of all desirable tables is up.  You see a lot of MK2 with fancy bases that can be pricey, and not necessarily the best sounding.  They're really not all that expensive, depending.  It's the MK3 that will set you back.  They used to advertise that one with an approx 100 lb woman standing on the platter as it rotated at 33 1/3.  This guy looks like he may be a good person to buy one from:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-technics-sp10-mk2-i-see-your-true-color-2012-10-13-analog-13224

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-technics-sp-10-mk3-turntable-2012-10-23-analog-canada

I've read that most of the chips used in these vintage tables on speed control circuits, aren't being made anymore.  Makes offer #1 even more desirable.

Trans Fi is getting almost a cult-like following.  Originally started out using a Teres verus rim drive motor/controller.  Now he makes his own controller which is said to be superior.  The motor might be diff too, although it looks like a verus in a diff enclosure. ?  Maybe the arm has generated more excitement, if that's an appropriate description for an arm.  I'd think that a hand, or a seductive image  would generate more excitement, neither of which applies.   
Apparently the arm has high mass in the lateral plane and is most appropriate with low cu MCs.  If you still have that Atlas you could slap that on there.  I never heard one, or the table.  The table is pretty cool looking IMO.  The arm looks like it was built by Rube Goldberg himself or Rube Jr gone berserk with an erector set.  It must sound great, looking like that.  The ET 2/2.5 is some stiff competition (to continue suggestive allusions).  I have heard the ET and it has killer potential, no exaggeration.  It now has a low pressure option and VTA on-the-fly with a curved support that maintains tangent setting. 
neo

[TomS]

Thanks for bringing up Trans Fi, I'm going to ping them and see what their story is...

That arm looks awfully weird.

Jeff,

Yes, looks like an industrial erector set, for sure...

I have both the Trans-Fi T3 tone arm and Salvation TT and like them a lot, using them with the Zesto Andros and Leto linestage, and a Zu Denon 103R. The T3Pro arm is a pleasure to use daily and wand/lead swaps are a 30 second affair since they're pre-set and completely repeatable.

Since this is a Rega P8 thread, feel free to PM me if you'd like more background on Trans-Fi.

Tom

[TONEPUB]

Thanks Tom, I'm very intrigued with that table.  And Neo, I've got a freshly rebuilt ET2.5 w/carbon fiber arm tube being mounted to a VPI Classic at the factory right now.  Can't wait to hear that combination!  Always loved that arm.

[TONEPUB]

If you still have that Atlas you could slap that on there.  I never heard one, or the table.  The table is pretty cool looking IMO.  The arm looks like it was built by Rube Goldberg himself or Rube Jr gone berserk with an erector set.  It must sound great, looking like that.  The ET 2/2.5 is some stiff competition (to continue suggestive allusions).  I have heard the ET and it has killer potential, no exaggeration.  It now has a low pressure option and VTA on-the-fly with a curved support that maintains tangent setting. 
neo

The Atlas is my main reference on the AVID Acutus Ref SP/TriPlanar.  That baby is not getting unmounted until it's worn out!

[neobop]

Thanks Tom, I'm very intrigued with that table.  And Neo, I've got a freshly rebuilt ET2.5 w/carbon fiber arm tube being mounted to a VPI Classic at the factory right now.  Can't wait to hear that combination!  Always loved that arm.

Low pressure fitting on the ET?   Get the other arm tube also.  Prob better with some carts.  We'll expect a full report, including lab tests with cool looking graphs.   Be a good reviewer and have a shoot-out with the Trans Fi arm.  Inquiring fanatics want to know, or at least get your impression, LOL

You quoted me out of context on that last quote.  I was talking about the Trans Fi arm, not that it matters I haven't heard either one.  Actus/TriPlaner/Atlas is your reference?  I'm afraid you're falling behind in the race to the top.  Avid is old hat my man, along with the SME 30 and that Atlas cart. They is now passe'.  Why don't you get a real table like the Saskia?  Make a good plinth for that SP-10 MK3 and you'll forget about that silly Avid.  I heard the Trans Fi table blows that away and only costs 2K lbs.  Anna is now front stage center at the opera house.  What are you going to do about it?   Probably doesn't matter.  I have confidence that ZYX Universe destroys all comers.  My, how audiophiles like their colorations..  BTW I hear there's going to be a new death match on U-tube.  You against Mikey Fremer. 
neo

Just read this over and realized that some of the boys and girls might not know I'm kidding.  So, here you go.         

Let the claymation begin!!

[neobop]

It looks like my last post was a show stopper. Maybe the hurricane had something to do with that.  Hope everyone came through it unharmed.  In regards to the topic of this thread, I've had the opportunity to hear a couple of Rega tables over the years, and like any evolved product, you can get them to sound good with proper set-up and maybe a little more tweaking than others.  Just because I disagree with Gandy about VTA etc, does not mean that I think Rega arms should be avoided.  For example, I don't know if a relatively inexpensive arm like the 250 is matched by any other arm in its class. It is also used to modify into some very well regarded arms.  My impression of the tables is that the Regas tend to have a livelier sound than some others and this is preferable to ponderous IMO. 

About "state of the art" stuff - I used to read Stereophile every issue, it was part of my job to know what was said.  Most of the time Fremer was right in his assessments, IMO.  But occasionally he was wrong.  I could tell by what he wrote, that his mistake was always from a mismatch or less than optimal pairing of components.  The fact of the matter is, that being the table guy for the the largest volume high end dealer in the country, I had access to a much wider array of components.   

What does satire have to do with fruit salad?  It's the origin of the word, lanx sature = fruit salad, which isn't far from fruit cake.  Is the pursuit of perfection in reproducing recorded sound an exercise in futility, or those in that pursuit nuttier than a fruitcake?  I'm not sure. The pretensions and descriptions are exaggerated.  Reviewers only have experience with a wider array of equipment than most people and that's what gives them credibility.  Cut away the gaudy mystique of most high end stuff and you'll see overpriced, over-hyped bullshit, not all though.  Read many opinions, or better yet hear for yourself.  BTW, Steve Hoffman loves the Criterion, I think he got one for free.

The previous post was totally tongue in cheek.  I'm sure there are differences between Goldfinger, Atlas, Anna, Colibri, Universe, Allerts, Koetsu, Miyabi etc, but I could only describe some of them in general terms.  If you're in that league reviews are valuable to find out things like compatible arms and preamps.  Some overall sounds tend toward analytical or romantic etc.  What does this have to do with RP8 vs Classic 1?  I suspect results will be very cart and set-up dependant. 
neo

[neobop]

I see the OP, Uptown Audio didn't do any unveiling, so.....
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=373141

I think it looks cool, except you'd have to take the platter/belts off to remove the dust cover and plinth.  Looks like you'd have to be careful not to bump the counterweight.  I also noticed that it costs 1598. lbs (w/o cart) = $2560.  The Brits value added tax is much more than shipping.  Without that, it more like a $2K table.  Maybe there's a distributor that needs to be fed.  It will succeed or not, on its merits and they say it has much better speed stability than lesser Regas.
neo

[doug s.]

for $2600 (plus shipping), i'd be awfully tempted to get the hanss t-30/amari lp-310, 22lb platter, dual motor:


or for $3100, (plus shipping), the hanss t-60/amari lp-610, 42lb platter, dual motor:


of course, you still need to supply a tonearm.

so, you might wanna consider the hanss t-20/amari lp-210, 11.5lb platter, single motor, at $1600 plus shipping:


doug s.