[medium jim]

Twitch:

How many must win games did Carlton encounter in 1972?  Then look at the other referenced great years and many pitched in pennant races.  In effect meaningful games vs mere exhibition games from a team out of contention.

What were the match ups during the season, i.e., how many times was it ace vs ace, etc.

Jim

[jackman]

Carlton is interesting.  When players on teams with bad records put up great numbers, is it because they are truly great (and it is assumed they would have performed even better on a great team) or is it because they are really good and playing in a low pressure environment because expectations are low?  No doubt, Carlton was TRULY great, HOF, four time Cy Young, pitcher.  Also, his '72 season was truly unbelievable and you can make a strong case for best ever, but he played for a team that was not in a playoff run, and with lower expectations (I'm not sure if you can ever say this about Philly but it's something to consider) because they were not in playoff contention. 

You could make a case for Pedro and Koufax pitching in higher pressure situations because their teams were in playoff contention (or leaders in the division as was the case with the Dodgers).  There was a similar argument against Cubs' Andre Dawson when he made his run for MVP in '87.  I didn't agree with it, but people have always made this argument against great players on bad teams. 

In 2000, Pedro had twice as many strike outs as hits allowed.  I'm not a fan of the Sox but appreciate a great performance.  He also pitched half his games in one of the most hitter friendly ballparks in the game, Fenway, at a time when balls were juiced, and players were "mysteriously" putting up record breaking numbers with the help of PED's.   

This is the same period in which Bonds put up, IMHO, one of the best offensive seasons of all time...with a little help from his doctor.  Without any lineup protection, he  finished with a ".328 batting average, 73 homers, 137 RBI, 32 doubles, 129 runs scored, and an unbelievable .863 slugging percentage (also an all-time record). What is even more remarkable than anything, though, is that Bonds' 73 homers constituted almost half of his hits (156)."  You will never see this again!  Unless they relax the testing standards again, of course. 

That said, if we are just looking at numbers/stats, you have to give it to Koufax or Carlton.   I'm still amazed at the amount of complete games they used to thrown back in the era of Koufax and in Carlton's era.  That's another discussion but I wonder if many of today's pitchers break down earlier because they start throwing breaking balls at an earlier age and they throw more sliders.   


Cheers,

Jack

[roscoeiii]

Pedro is the most dominant pitcher I have ever seen pitch in person.

Of current pitchers, I would most like to see the Met's knuckleballer Dickey.

[roscoeiii]

As for the greatest no-hitter of all time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14

[jackman]

Roscoe  - Dickie is awesome.  Are you familiar with his story?  He was born without a ligament (ulnar or something like that) in his throwing elbow.  Doctors are unsure how he can throw without pain.  He's also no spring chicken. I believe he's 35 years old. 

I love knuckleball pitchers.  They are rare and really interesting to watch.  Dickie also has great control for a knuckle baller.

[roscoeiii]

Yeah. It is Dickie's control that is so incredible. Let's try to catch him pitch when he is in Chicago. I'd even go to Wrigley for that.

[twitch54]

Jack,

all good points, I understand.....the pressure of a pennant race, etc.....and one can say the quality of such team further helps the success of the pitcher but if thinking that the lack of such ingredients on the '72 Phillies made it easy on Carlton then one does not know 'Lefty' ! NO ONE with the number of victories he posted had less run support, only once in the entire year did they ever give him dbl digits !

[Devil Doc]

Wasn't much fan support either. I was stationed across the street that year. You could get in for free with a military ID and sit anywhere you wanted.

Doc

[jackman]

Hi Doc,

We're talking about Philly fans...maybe fewer of them in the stands was a good thing.

Just kidding, Philly fans are some of the most fierce in all of sports.  It's the Eagle and Flyer fans that scare me.

Cheers,

J

[roscoeiii]

There was a Bill Simmons mailbag question recently asking "Which city's fans would be most likely to win at The Hunger Games?"

His answer: Philly

[Devil Doc]

Not to go off on too far of a tangent, but it seems to me Eagles' fans boo'd Santa Clause.

Doc

[squirrel_nut]

1971 - Cuellar, Palmer, McNally and Dobson    all 20 game winners.  Cuellar was my favorite. Maddox without his velocity, which means he didnt have a fastball. amazing to watch him pick apart a strike zone.

[twitch54]

Wasn't much fan support either.

except when Carlton pitched !

[twitch54]

1971 - Cuellar, Palmer, McNally and Dobson    all 20 game winners. 

nice seasons, none come close to the pitchers of discussion though.

[medium jim]

I'm spoiled as I've had the pleasure of watching Clayton Kershaw develope from raw talent to the best pitcher in both leagues.  Yeah, he was only  14-9, but led the majors in era, was 3rd in Strikouts, had the lowest whip, batters only hit .210 against him,etc. 

Last night his uncle charlie had the Giants baffled.

I guess the Cy Young will go to Dickey, but Kershaw had a better year. 

Jim