[roscoeiii]

Well folks,

I was sitting around (wasting time on AC), and realized that the new speakers I have (Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen II) are  a good deal more efficient (91 dB) than the SP Tech Minis (~87 dB) that they are replacing. Since SP Techs (later changed their name to Aether Audio) like some grunt from the amp that is driving them I had purchased a 250W hybrid Butler 2250 to pair with them (a combo that had been used at shows. But this fateful night, not too long ago, I realized that with 91 dB speakers I could probably afford a tube amp powerful enough to drive these well (not the case for the SP Techs, according to conventional wisdom among SP Tech owners).

Whaddya know, not too long after that I found myself the proud owner of a Rogue Stereo 90 (with EH KT-88 output tubes). Rogue appealed due to the numerous positive reviews, almost all of which mentioned the amps excellent bass (not something tube amps are traditionally known for). Great bass is a requirement in my system (thus the VR-4 Gen IIs...).

So tonight I am finally able to sit down with both amps and both pairs of speakers. This thread will cover my impressions of the various combos (VR-4s w/ Rogue, VR-4s with Butler, SP Minis w/ Rogue, SP Minis with Butler).

Hopefully y'all will find this interesting or educational. If not, no worries. I need the typing practice anyway.

[Early B.]

I'm looking forward to your review.

[roscoeiii]

Well, to start with the VR-4s, a very close contest overall. In my small 13 x 15 room with dB levels not exceeding 80 dB due to the neighbors upstairs and downstairs. Both amps pair very well with this speaker in this setting.

But overall, I'd give the edge to the Rogue. There is a bit more meat on the bones with it, while it remains a fast amp as well. A bit more harmonic richness and decays on the notes. Excellent bass impact. In some spots, greater impact than the Butler, which was certainly a surprise (due to the VR-4s' bass module being 4 ohm, this is all out of the Rogue's 4 ohm tap, BTW).

Also, worth noting: all of this is so far is with the Fleet Foxes S/T LP playing on a Townshend Rock 7, into a Dynavector P75 phono and Musical Fidelity kW line stage.

I find the Fleet Foxes first album excellent due to the many acoustic instruments and the complex massed harmonizing vocals. Later on in the evaluation, we will switch to some Radiohead for reasons to be explained then.   

[roscoeiii]

Now things get really interesting. There is a reason that Butlers were paired with SP Tech/Aether speakers at shows.

The Rogue was decent, but the pairing of the Butler and the SP Tech Minis really shines. Maybe not the same degree of decay and body that the Rogue had on the VR-4s but there is a clear and undeniable synergy with the Butlers and the SP Techs. And it does seem that there is more body with the 2250 on the SP Minis than with the VR-4s. And the impact and oomph and drive of the SP Techs with the Butler. Oh my.  Much more of a clear cut improvement here. As I said before, SP Techs have always been said to like higher power amps. If you want a higher power amp that gives tube sound, has great speed and extension, the Butler is a great choice on speakers around this efficiency range.

I've said it before and I will say it again. Synergy is everything.

[Steidl Guitars]

I owned the Rogue for a few years and liked it quite a bit, even with speakers that were somewhat difficult to drive.  Anyway, of the different flavors of KT88s I tried, EH, Penta/Shuguang, and Gold Lions, I liked EH the least (and by a good bit).  To their credit, they're cheap and reliable, but that's about it.  So if you're going to keep the Rogue and willing to experiment some with power tubes, it might pay off. 

Bob

[roscoeiii]

I owned the Rogue for a few years and liked it quite a bit, even with speakers that were somewhat difficult to drive.  Anyway, of the different flavors of KT88s I tried, EH, Penta/Shuguang, and Gold Lions, I liked EH the least (and by a good bit).  To their credit, they're cheap and reliable, but that's about it.  So if you're going to keep the Rogue and willing to experiment some with power tubes, it might pay off. 

Bob

Yes, I do think that I'd like to try the Rogue with KT120s. Might be able to approach the more visceral impact that the Butler had with the SP Tech Minis (but not as much the Rogue ).

[JakeJ]

Cool beans, roscoeiii, this should be a fun read!  Being a former owner of VR-4 Gen III's I can somewhat relate to your sound signature.  Had mine in a similar sized room them went to a larger room with positive results.  Mostly listened on a pair of Curcio kitted Dyna Mk III amps driven by a McCormack ALD-1 with Gold Signature upgrade, Adcom GCD-750, and my SOTA Sapphire TT and Dynavector D17 Karat.

Are you running the amp from one set of outputs to the upper or lower speaker binding posts then daisy chaining to the other module?  Bi-wiring?  If the former try connection to the mid/tweeter module them daisy chain to the bass.  Also try using the 8 ohm taps just to be sure you are gettting the best results because no matter how you wire the amps is seeing the speakers as a whole system.  Thought about bi-amping with the Rogue on the tweeter/mid modules and the Butlers on the bass yet?  Just thinking out loud.

Most of all have fun and always double check your connections for tightness. 

Agree with Steidl Guitars, Penta Labs and Gold Lions have consistenly given better SQ.  Haven't had the bux to try Black Treasures or Psvanes.

[roscoeiii]

I should also point out that the Butler 2250 was even at a bit of a disadvantage on the SP Minis due to me needing to use a power cord intended for sources with it  (a MAC Source+ cable). My other garden hose cord came unplugged from my power conditioner when swapping amps and I couldn't reach back and plug it in without major headache.

[roscoeiii]

Thanks for all these comments JakeJ.

Are you running the amp from one set of outputs to the upper or lower speaker binding posts then daisy chaining to the other module?  Bi-wiring?

Good question. I am bi-wiring the VR-4s. Something I would highly recommend for these speakers.

Also try using the 8 ohm taps just to be sure you are getting the best results because no matter how you wire the amps is seeing the speakers as a whole system. 

As the VR-4s are listed as 7 ohm nominal, I began with the 8 ohm tap. But the bass was surprisingly limited. A little digging revealed that the VSA woofer modules are all 4 ohm. Switching to 4 ohm taps gave me the bass that I was led to expect that the Rogue could produce.

Thought about bi-amping with the Rogue on the tweeter/mid modules and the Butlers on the bass yet?  Just thinking out loud.

I have thought about bi-amping. But I can't afford to keep both the Rogue and the Butler at the moment. So if I were to bi-amp the VR-4s it would be with my Class D Audio kit amp that I keep as a back-up. According to Class D this should pair very nicely with the Rogue.

Agree with Steidl Guitars, Penta Labs and Gold Lions have consistenly given better SQ.  Haven't had the bux to try Black Treasures or Psvanes.

A nice aspect of having a tube amp is the possibility of tweaking/improving the sound with tube changes. Good to know that I could likely experience some improvements changing from the EHs.

[JakeJ]

You've covered your bases well. Nice work! Bi-wiring worked best for me too.

Looking forward to reading how the SP Techs do with the Rogue.

I would still try the Butlers for bass out of curiosity. That said, the Class D should do nicely.

Down the road, when the tube tweaks happen, keep us posted! 

[Ericus Rex]

Did you try the SP Techs with the 4 or 8 ohm tap on the Rogue?  If the speakers are 8 ohms, using the 4 ohm tap drastically reduces the power output.  I'd give the 8 ohm tap a whirl before giving the Butler the win in round 2.

[jackman]

Roscoe,
Cool thread! I'd try those class d amps on the woofers.  Also, I bet an inexpensive amp like my Crown K1 would be great in those woofers. You can pick one of these up for under $400 and they are built like tanks and run cool. I love the K series even though they are only available used. I've seen several on Craig's list for cheap.

I've got a set of new Bamberg Series 5 MTs on loan and look forward to our next get together.  These speakers are amazing and have active woofers.  I'm a big fan of active woofers and they give you more flexibility with regard to amps because you are only lowering the monitors.

Cheers

J

[JakeJ]

Interesting twist, Jackman, as I am now running speakers with active woofers (actually active subs).  Mine are the Genesis G501i as they are upgraded versions of the original G501 (crossovers & internal bracing).  Current version here http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g5series.html, mine are the last iteration with rosewood veneer which I much prefer over paint.  I really want to try some sort of SET amp as they are 100 dB efficient on the top and Class D driven on the bottom.

Sorry to go a bit OT there.

Here's hoping you gents get together and do even more comparisons.   

[roscoeiii]

Oh Jackman and I will be getting together...