[SteveRB]

http://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-124

thoughts?

[Guidof]

Realistic bass may not be the only part of "real live music" that is hard -- and expensive -- to convey in the home with convincing realism. Wonderfully magical as one's system may be in its ability to take us to the Concertgebow or the Village Vanguard and to provide enormous musical enjoyment in the process, it still pales by comparison with being there.

I think one is wise in just enjoying what our hi-fi can do, even in the absence of the ultimate infinite baffle subwoofer. For the real thing, just go and be there!

Guido F.

[SteveRB]

Before I was married. I was able to install an all Altec alnico infinite baffle system in my condo. Acoustic bass sounded awesome and real. But as musical tastes change, sometimes I need unreal bass for electronic music. There is no such thing an acoustic 808.

I understand the poor reproduction of a lot of bass reflex boxes; but I also understand the efficiencies. I'm happy with my 4x12" Servo Open Baffle.

[*Scotty*]

What Art failed to do was comment on the difference between loudspeakers with boomy bass and rooms that have uncontrolled resonances below the Schroeder frequency associated with the room's dimensions. Never before have we had such easy access to low frequency reproduction in our listening rooms. Sub-woofers with bass extension to 20Hz are easily had at a variety price points. With this capability comes the necessity for successfully dealing with the the rooms contribution to the equation in order to have accurate bass reproduction.
 I think Art noticed that speaker designs that have bigger cone areas devoted to bass frequencies also couple to the air in the room more effectively and were much more likely to excite the room's bass resonant modes to the point that the bass was degraded. The vintage loudspeakers he mentioned were lucky to have much bass extension below 50Hz and did not excite the room modes as readily. He also liked the sound the speakers with smaller bass driver cone areas which again do not couple to the air in the room as effectively in the bass frequencies and were less likely to excite the room's bass resonant modes.
 I think he was also of course specifically complaining about vented design speakers that are tuned to have a hump in their output in the mid-bass say around 60Hz to 80Hz, the Pioneer HPM 60 comes to mind. That speaker would cave your chest in if driven hard and actually had little bass extension below the designed in peak at about 60Hz. A classic boom and zing loudspeaker that tended to characterize the West coast sound in the late 70s and early 80s.
Scotty
 

[medium jim]

the article references Leo Fender....while he wasn't a musician and in fact, was nearly deaf in one ear, he surrounded himself with professional musicians who were critical to his designs and how they sounded.   There is much dispute who actually created the first Solid Body, many in the know consider Paul Bigsby as the originator.

Jim

[4krow]

  As a newcomer here, I must say that reading an article such as this one gives me hope, at least for us older guys(I'm 56). Interesting how our tastes change as mentioned in the article. I was dam glad to have Speakerlab 'K' speakers for the needed bass addiction. I wonder what I would think of them now? I am not as happy with the bass of my system now as I was in a previous home, and I think that there is a limited amount of good that can be done. If I had the money, it might be spent first on the room itself, not the subs that I own.

[medium jim]

4krow:

Welcome to the AC and the Bass Place Circle....there is hope for all of us

Jim

[*Scotty*]

4krow, what are your room's dimensions? Also where are you seated relative to your speakers and the room boundaries.
Scotty

[neekomax]

I think it's a fairly interesting article, but kind of peters out at the end before summing up with any kind of conclusion. It's this whole story that seems fairly thought out, and at the end he's like, '... oh, and also don't be a douchebag when you come to my house and set up your gear for me to review." Huh? I was wondering if I'd clicked a random link all of a sudden and landed on a different article. Kinda weird.

Also, how jaded are you that you feel it necessary to publicly complain about the imposition of your (seemingly) fairly awesome job on your mellow. Dude, I'll review sweet audio gear all day, no worries. You go lay down, Pops. 

All that aside, he does raises good points, as do the comments here above. As much as I am a product, and fan in some ways, of the type of bass that he's bemoaning, I can see what he means about home audio bass being of a very different nature overall from that of live instruments. It gives us something to strive for, to get closer to that realistic presentation. But the perfect system should be able to give you that rollercoaster thrill of 'modern' bass, and also be able to take you front row in front of the piano trio.

At least I want both.

[Pete Schumacher]

Realistic bass may not be the only part of "real live music" that is hard -- and expensive -- to convey in the home with convincing realism. Wonderfully magical as one's system may be in its ability to take us to the Concertgebow or the Village Vanguard and to provide enormous musical enjoyment in the process, it still pales by comparison with being there.

I think one is wise in just enjoying what our hi-fi can do, even in the absence of the ultimate infinite baffle subwoofer. For the real thing, just go and be there!

Guido F.

If you were talking about orchestral, acoustic performances, that would ring true.  But if you're talking about live performances of amplified musicians, then reproduction in the home can be had that equals the original, especially those recordings mastered directly from the control board signals that power the sound system. 

And if you're talking about subs to cover the lowest octave of instruments, then to replicate a live performance, you'd forget about sealed, infinite baffle, or vented subs, and build large horns.  That's what they use to make the audience feel the event.  Why would using one in YOUR venue be any less impressive?

[4krow]

Scotty,   Thanks for the reply. My room dimensions are 14X19. Unfortunately, I can't set the system up ideally. As it turns out, the right speaker is about 3' from the side wall, and 2' from the rear wall. The left speaker is about 10' from it's side wall and 2' from the back wall. I sit about 7' away from them. It's a challenge to make it work, but overall, it does better than I expected. Now the subs are not ideal with placement either. They next to the right speaker on it's outside edge about 2' from the side wall. Having said all of this, it is now obvious that things need to change, especially for the bass. What I haven't mentioned yet, is that I use a Velodyne SMS-1 bass management unit. Without it, life wouldn't be worth living. It can't produce miracles, so advice is appreciated. With these room measurements, what would be the resonant frequencies to deal with?

[Guidof]

If you were talking about orchestral, acoustic performances, that would ring true.  But if you're talking about live performances of amplified musicians, then reproduction in the home can be had that equals the original, especially those recordings mastered directly from the control board signals that power the sound system. 

And if you're talking about subs to cover the lowest octave of instruments, then to replicate a live performance, you'd forget about sealed, infinite baffle, or vented subs, and build large horns.  That's what they use to make the audience feel the event.  Why would using one in YOUR venue be any less impressive?

Yes, the Concertgebow and Village Vanguard examples suggested unamplified musicians. That was also the focus of the article in the OP.

Why not large horns? Well, apart from the 'nasality' issue that some of us find objectionable, they mate less than satisfactorily with the less than palatial abodes most of us live in.

But I grant you that if realistic reproduction of amplified musicians is the desired goal, that is easier to achieve than realistic reproduction of real live unamplified musicians playing in a real space.

Regards,

Guido F.

[medium jim]

Or that of the large woodwinds, say the Contrabassoon, or Oboe.

Jim

[4krow]

It's so true guys, whatyou are trying to reproduce can be sooo different when it comes to bass. I have only gotten it right a few times. There are overtones, mass without pushing force, and blending involved.