[yetis]

So I decided on a veneer and decided on a full front baffle and forward firing port.  However, now I need to decide if I want custom solid silver internal silver wire. Other items include decision on caps.  Of these, what are your experiences with these options, good or bad.  One other question.  Has anyone used different speakers connections?  Has anyone seen the Tannoy\esoteric mounts that ground the speakers and isolate the tweeter\driver?  http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/808eso.2.jpg

Any contribution is appreciated.

[jtwrace]

What are you going to use to drive them?

[yetis]

Not sure yet.  Probably a class d amp of some type.  I live in NYC, so placement of Pass monoblocks, or something similar is tough.  Right now, leaning towards Channel Island 500 or 1000 blocks.  Just want to make sure there is plenty of power.  Note these will be controlled by a Meridian 860 processor, so heavy  room adjustment will be applied.

I should note, I have owned pass amps, px-25 set amp and most recently, a modwright 100se.  All great, especially the pass and modwright.  However, I need something compact and less fussy then tubes. I acknowledge the tradeoff here.

[jsalk]

Let the debates begin!  This post has the potential of generating some heated debate as this is a topic where strongly held beliefs are the norm.  I don't wish to take sides, but I thought it might be of some value to explain our philosophy since I don't recall posting on the topic in the past.

As a custom builder, our job is to build the speakers of the owner's dreams, not ours. So we offer the option of using any wire, caps, resistors and inductors you might desire. 

In our standard crossovers, we use quality polypropylene caps, air core inductors and non-inductive resistors.  These components are laid out properly and wired point-to-point.  While you could certainly lower the cost by using solid core inductors, sand cast resistors and inexpensive caps, we don't feel it is appropriate to skimp on components in a high quality speaker.  Just the same, we don't feel we should over-spec components and force customers to pay higher costs than necessary.  At the same time, we do provide the option to upgrade for those who feel more expensive components are worth the added cost.

As far as that cost is concerned, the upgrade path is fairly open ended.  We had one customer request a quote on a specific brand of cap.  The quote came to $17,000, which substantially exceeded the cost of the speaker itself (in the end he decided to go with a lower cost "boutique" cap).  So when going down the upgrade path, it can be somewhat difficult to determine where to draw the line.

Often, when we complete a speaker with "upgraded" components, we have the opportunity to do an A/B comparison, side-by-side, with the same speaker using our standard crossover components and wiring.  This is something few owners have the chance to do.

In many cases, I sense I hear an increase in clarity and transparency with the higher cost components.  But when I close my eyes and have someone randomly switch back and forth, I find I cannot determine which speaker is playing with any degree of accuracy.  If I know which is playing, I am fairly certain I can hear a difference.  But if I don't know which is playing, I find that I rarely identify the upgraded speaker significantly more than 50% of the time - not much better than a simple guess.

Based on those experiences, I can't in all honesty tell an owner that upgrading makes a significant difference.  Just the same, I can't say it doesn't.  All I can say for certain is that the difference, if any, is somewhat subtle.  And from a price/performance point of view, it can cost quite a bit to obtain any performance gains. 

When asked for my advice, I often respond with this thought:  If you are the type of person who, six months after purchasing a speaker, would question whether you made the right decision and would wonder how much better the speaker would have sounded with upgraded components, then go for it.  Look at it like insurance.  If you go the extra mile in the beginning, you will never have to question yourself down the line.

On the other hand, if you are the type of person who would just sit back and enjoy the music, there is no need to spend the extra money.  We are very confident our standard crossover produces great sound.  In fact, I should point out that we never upgrade components in speakers we furnish to reviewers.  So any reviews you may have read are based on our standard crossovers.

This post has the potential of creating a heated debate.  I hope we can keep it civil. 

There are competent speaker designers who feel that as long as the values are correct,  components make almost no difference.  Others feel very strongly that crossover components can make a huge difference.  In that regard, it is almost a "religious" issue.  If you ask audiophiles for opinions, you will likely get responses that cover the spectrum.  So how do you decide whose opinion to follow?

In the end, you will have to make up your own mind as comments a thread like this will generate will tend be all over the board. The nice thing is, regardless of what you decide, the sound will be very good indeed.

- Jim 

[yetis]

Jim,

Thank you for the thoughtful response.  I certainly am not looking to ignite a fire storm.  Rather, looking to avoid regretting a decision for not springing for some modest upgrade.  I certainly wasn't considering $14,000 caps!  That said, I did not know what was standard.  As you note, there seem to be some boutique and or rare caps available for a modest investment.  As for internal wiring, I want to reduce what, if any color is added and leave the adjustments for outside the speaker walls.   As for upgraded crossover or active setup. I think its lost on me, given my use of meridian 861 processor, which I think would be working against such a system?

Thank you for the details, as it takes the pressure off.

Regards,

Chris

[grantc79]

As Jim has stated if you KNOW what is changed you can CONVINCE YOURSELF that something is different, better, or whatever.

That said there have been plenty of blind tests regarding interconnects and speaker wire and realistically no one can tell the difference as long as decent wire is used. In short if it is up to the task it doesn't really matter.

Before I spent more than 40 bucks on a pair of speaker cables or interconnects I'd spend every nickel I had on room treatments, components, and and whatnot.

[ratso]

people DO get very heated with this type of talk and i have to say even though it's bad around here, it's worse in other forums. i have thought a lot about this subject, and the farther i get into it the sillier it seems. at least it seems to me that it's pretty easy to find common ground here, so let me propose some. i personally am very much in the "if you can't measure it you can't hear it" camp. i read peter aczal's philosophy on this early on in my "audio hobby" days and took it to heart (not that i just took his word for it, but my experiences have mirrored his) - i  don't even hear an audible difference between 2 quality amps which really puts me in a small boat around here. this would put me firmly in the CAMP A type of listeners - the ones that say if i blindfold you, you couldn't hear a difference. which may be true, but that's a kinda silly proposition isn't it? who listens blindfolded? CAMP B says, well my wife can hear the difference from the kitchen with the dishwasher running, don't your ears work, anyone can hear the difference. which is also silly, as i am not listening with your (or your wife's) ears.

CAMP A tries to take all feelings and emotions out of it, which just isn't possible when listening to music. CAMP B tries to project their personal feelings and emotions on to everybody. the above arguments would be as foolish as me saying, look at this piece of art, it's a masterpiece and if you don't think so than obviously your eyes are broken. music is the same as art. it's not just a physical phenomena of pressurized air being converted to electrical signals in your brain. it is also about how your emotions/cognitions respond to those signals. when CAMP A says the improvement you hear is "all in your head" they are right - music IS all in your head. that's the point. if putting a green clock in your room improves what you experience coming from your speakers, then it absolutely improved your listening experience and no one should tell you differently. i may interpret it in another way and not get the same response, and no one should tell me differently. just as we all may respond differently to the same piece of artwork - the physical presentation is the same for all of us, but our emotional responses to it will differ.

p.s. how great is it to have a speaker maker that gives you his honest take on a subject, instead of just trying to jack up the price you spend? well done.

[charmerci]

Chris,

Based on Jim's excellent response, unless you are sure that you are positive that you can hear differences between caps or wires, I'd say don't bother worrying yourself over upgrading on the Salk speakers

[jackman]

Very honest answer by Jim. My experience in this area is not nearly as extensive as  Jim's but I've experimented with expensive caps a bit and I'm pretty confident I could not pass a blind test between super-esoteric caps and the high quality ones Salk uses in their stock xovers.  I'm not saying there is no difference but it's not something I could justify or detect consistently, let alone spend big money to obtain. 
 
Interestingly enough, as far as I can recall, every person who has ever installed expensive esoteric caps in their speakers (DIY guys) seems to rave about the huge improvement they achieved.  Sometimes I wonder if these guys could pass a blind A/B test between the original caps and the new improved caps(assuming the old caps were of decent quality). 

[Rocket]

Hi,

I've always wondered if installed blackhole5 in my HT2's would have had an influence on the sound of my speakers?  I remember a long time ago listening to a speaker designer tweaking a crossing using expensive caps and you could tell the difference but it was only slight imo.

When a person describes a component change has huge I've usually found that it is a slight improvement.  May'be my hearing isn't fine tuned enough to pick up the differences.

Regards

Rod

[WGH]

I've always wondered if installed blackhole5 in my HT2's would have had an influence on the sound of my speakers?

I believe it does no harm. While my HT2-TL's were completely stripped of components for final sanding and finishing I decided to install DIY No-Rez. I read the open cell foam does not change the internal volume and the double layer of vinyl floor tile would certainly aid in cabinet resonance control but with the walls of the speakers already 1-1/8" thick will it make a noticeable difference? I don't know since I did both boxes at the same time, the Seas drivers are too expensive to take out and put back in very often, the risk of damage is too great.

I'll tell you one thing though, the inside of the cabinets with the foam is very, very dead. Quick, sharp noises like snapping fingers is very muffled whereas in the untreated box the sound bounces around. I usually start music demos with some acoustic music like the excellent The Harrow and the Harvest by Gillian Welch. Guests can get adjusted to the speakers sound and say the speakers sound very nice. Then I move onto something from Jim's demo CD or Tracy Chapman's Mountains O' Things (vinyl) and watch their jaws drop. Everyone always asks "is the sub-woofer on?" and I have to convince them otherwise. They also ask "Is this a record?" so I have to show them the record jacket. My equipment is in an adjoining room so nobody knows what medium I am playing music from.

We are back to the cost vs. improvement equation. 5 sheets of No-Rez is about $200 plus a couple of hours for installation, that would add at the least $300-$400 to the price of the HT2-TL's, a big price hike for little (if any) improvement. My DIY approach cost about $65 for foam, tile, and spray adhesive. At $32 per speaker it was an affordable experiment.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100672.msg1015849#msg1015849

Here is a photo showing hints of the No-Rez before I re-installed the transmission line stuffing.



Wayne

[Rocket]

Hi,

I actually have a couple of 'no rez' sheets that I bought from Gr Research a few years ago.   How many sheets did you use and do you think it would be easy to remove the drivers and tweeter (always a dangerous proposition)?

Regards

Rod

[WGH]

5 No Rez sheets should be enough. I used only 5 - 20"x30" sheets of open cell foam by using all the scraps. Since my cabinets were sent without the drivers installed I don't know too much about removal. The drivers sit on a foam gasket so they should pop out easily.

I installed the drivers using a cordless drill/driver with a clutch. I set the clutch at 2 so all the screws have exactly the same torque.

Wayne

[yetis]

Well, I thought that it was worth closing out this thread with am update.  After almost 9-months of deliberation, I have ordered at pair of SS8's.  I went from HT-2tl's, to HT-3's and then finally, SS8's.  I will wait to give all the external details, but I did end up going for the upgraded caps.  I felt at this point.. why not!  I am looking forward to these speakers.  In the mean time, I am building myself a set of Hypex Ncore mono block amps. That should keep me busy/entertained until the speakers come.   

Regards,

[Nuance]

^ That's great news.  The SS8's are insanely good and I am confident you'll love them as much as I do.  Welcome to the Salk family!

[yetis]

^ That's great news.  The SS8's are insanely good and I am confident you'll love them as much as I do.  Welcome to the Salk family!

Thank you.  I am looking forward to not wanting new speakers, so I can obsess over something else!

You really like these speakers!  You have done a great job spreading the word on the SS8's.  That said, I hope not that well, as I would love to get the speakers as soon as possible!

[(W)KRP]

Congrats on waiting for the right product to come along, and hopefully avoiding any upgrade-itis in the future. AudioCircle should have an award that shows up under your name for being in the SS8 club.

[Nuance]

You really like these speakers!  You have done a great job spreading the word on the SS8's.  That said, I hope not that well, as I would love to get the speakers as soon as possible!

Haha - yeah, I really like them, and I think you will too.  Hopefully you're not too far back on the waiting list.