[SteveFord]

My old Well Tempered square motor table (and albums) deserves a better cartridge than the cheapie that came with it.
I'm using an Ortofon 2M Black on my Well Tempered Classic and really like it so I'm going to stick with Ortofon.
Has anyone compared any of the similarly priced Ortofon MCs with the 2M Black?
The system is all tube gear with Magnepan 3.7s and listening preference is rock, a little blues and some jazz.  Zappa, Eno, Jeff Beck, Mose Allison, that kind of stuff.
Thanks in advance,
Steve Ford

[BaMorin]

My old Well Tempered square motor table (and albums) deserves a better cartridge than the cheapie that came with it.
I'm using an Ortofon 2M Black on my Well Tempered Classic and really like it so I'm going to stick with Ortofon.
Has anyone compared any of the similarly priced Ortofon MCs with the 2M Black?
The system is all tube gear with Magnepan 3.7s and listening preference is rock, a little blues and some jazz.  Zappa, Eno, Jeff Beck, Mose Allison, that kind of stuff.
Thanks in advance,
Steve Ford

How about I send you a decent Grado for that WT table to try for a few weeks?

[SteveFord]

Wow, that would be great!
I do like the way their headphones sound. 
Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

[Kinger]

This is kind of a long read, but you may find it interesting.......

http://tinyurl.com/6unpvgv

[BaMorin]

Wow, that would be great!
I do like the way their headphones sound. 
Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

BaMorin@AOL.com   

you can reach me there.  Let me know the input sensitivity of your phono input, so I can mount a stylus in a body your pre can read.

[DaveyW]

Hi Steve,

Am sure Marc will sort you out something very tasty - you can't beat a solidly recommended home audition.

I've tried a few Ortofons, including a 2M Black, unfortunately no MC's as yet.
Alternatives that would be on my shortlist include the DV 20X, Bluenote Boboli and the slightly fuller Denon DL-S1.

Personally I'd wait to see what Bammer comes up with first though, if it's close to a Reference Sonata 1 you won't be dissapointed.

Look forward to hearing where you get to.
Cheers
Dave

[SteveFord]

If anyone is interested, the word from the Ortofon USA distributor is that if you want the 2M Black sound but simply more of it you'd want the Cadenza Black. 
Shame I ran that winning lottery ticket went through the wash last week.

[Photon46]

I've run a Grado reference Sonata, Grado Master 1, and a Ortofon Kontrapunkt H on my Acoustic Reference Final Tool/Audiomods IV rig. I don't think the choice between Grado and Ortofon is all that simple. The Ortofon excels on classical music and rather easily eclipses the Grado Master 1 in unraveling complex musical compositions. The Grado Master 1 (a considerably more sophisticated transducer than the Sonata) could easily be preferred if you are a dedicated popular/rock listener. Each has its strengths, neither has real "weakness" IMO. As I listen to 75% classical music, I generally listen to Ortofon and change to the Grado for a new flavor now and then. Even though the Grado and Ortofon are nominally rated the same output, the Ortofon seems to have more "oomph" and drive. Great deals can be had on NOS Ortofon Kontrapunts from the Hong Kong seller "2Juki" on Ebay. I ordered this from him and received the cartridge quickly:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ortofon-Kontrapunkt-h-MC-Cartridge-Made-in-Denmark-/280715338573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415bf0234d#ht_2192wt_1189

It's a very good discount off the original list price. For less money, this is also a very well reviewed Ortofon:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ortofon-Kontrapunkt-MC-Cartridge-Made-Denmark-/280831139110?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4162d71d26#ht_1836wt_1189

If you don't have sufficient phono pre drive for a moving coil, I suggest also considering Garrott cartridges as an alternative to Grado. I have a Garrott Optim FGS that is a wonderful cartridge, preferable to the Grado Sonata by a fair margin (to my ears.) Paul Szabady's review summarizes my take on Garrott strengths very well:  http://www.stereotimes.com/cart081402.shtml
If it's relevant, I think the Garrott performs better over a broad spectrum of musical styles vis-a-vis the Sonata. Unfortunately, Garrott has no US distributor at present. However, you can order them direct from Australia via Decibel HiFi, a long established and reputable dealer. See link to their Garrott offerings:  http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/category35_1.htm

[SteveFord]

Funny, I just spent the past few days researching everything I could about the Kontrapunkts.  That Kontrapunkt H really sounds like a winner. 
Ortofon did mention possible age-related problems which is a concern for me.  The seller in Hong Kong does have a return policy, though.
I may have to start a modest cartridge collection!
Cartridges are really tough to choose as there are so many variables (turntable, phono stage, etc.) and not a whole heck of a lot of places around to give a listen.
Place a great cartridge on an inexpensive turntable with a budget phono stage and how can you really tell?

[Photon46]

Age related concerns?? The Kontrapunkts aren't that old. Plus, they are stored in such an airtight package they'd probably not degrade if stored in a pure atmosphere of ozone. Ok, that might be pushing things. There's been a lot of discussion about this concern over on Audiogon over the years and most owners seem to find suspension degradation due to aging is pretty rare.

For whatever reason, the Kontrapunkt H didn't get as much press as the other members of the family. For my tastes, it is an ideal balance (given the price) of precision, detail, powerful bass, and timbre. I've never winced at its reproduction of high frequencies on classical material, but there are the occasional instances where rock music is mixed with a "hot" treble and it can sound aggressive. I'm very sensitive to that too and hate etched and bright sounding gear.

You're very right about the importance of good supporting equipment when evaluating cartridges. Vinyl playback is a system, no one element is possible to evaluate in isolation. Trying to get a handle on the sound of a cartridge installed on an inexpensive tonearm with bearing play is like trying to evaluate high performance tires on a car with a worn suspension. You're only going to get a sense of the possibilities. Limitations in my old Sutherland Php-1p certainly didn't present the Grado Master 1 to its best. It was only after I upgraded to a RCM Sensor phonostage that I really got a chance to hear its capabilites.

[neobop]

I wouldn't guess that a Kontrapunkt would be a good match for your arm, even if all that silicon allows considerable latitude. Did you check with Well Tempered forum? Cu is 12 and the height would put your arm way up in the air. Even if it would work, I suspect you would do better with a lighter, higher cu cart.

If it must be Ortofon perhaps the reissued MC20 would be more appropriate, at least as far as arm matching. Cu is 15 and it weighs a gram less. It too looks tall but It should work out better. Despite the silicone you have a low mass arm, assuming it's the orig one. Nothing against Ortofon but I think you should look for high cu carts. There are quite a few newer MCs that would be more appropriate IMO.

[Photon46]

Good points Neobob. Kontrapunkts are heavier than the norm and can present problems to some arms.

[Ericus Rex]

The Audiomods arm isn't silicone damped   

[Photon46]

The Audiomods arm isn't silicone damped   

Neobob's talking about the OP's Well Tempered turntable, it does a have a silicone damped arm AFAIK.

[Ericus Rex]

Neobob's talking about the OP's Well Tempered turntable, it does a have a silicone damped arm AFAIK.

Got it!  Thanks!

[SteveFord]

Good thinking and yes, the WT arm floats in goo.

[neobop]

I would guess that the eff mass of orig WT arm is around 6g. Straight alum pipe and not much of a headshell. I heard a 2M Black, briefly - nice cart. Cu is 22, and I suspect it sounds damn good on your table. In this case the mass of a MC will actually help increase the total mass of the arm/cart system. But the price is structural rigidity and having to put your counterweight further back. It just wasn't built for that. High cu is definitely the way to go IMO. There are some higher cu MCs that might work out. What are you looking for, more detail, imaging?

[SteveFord]

More detail and imaging is always a good thing!
I ordered another 2M Black but I can always move that to the other Well Tempered once that one's 2M Black wears out.  There's only $100 difference between the price of the complete cartridge and just the stylus on that model. 
The 2M Black doesn't do anything wrong that I can hear; it's more a case of not wanting to be stuck in a rut.
The arm is full of sand so it does have some weight to it.  I didn't think to weigh it when I was putting the paddle on it the other day.

[neobop]

Interesting - weighing the arm before/after inserting sand isn't really going to tell you the increase in eff mass. Weight added at the cart end will almost add directly to eff mass. Weight added behind the cart toward the pivot - not so much. That arm tube probably wouldn't hold all that much, if I remember correctly. You probably increased eff mass a gram or three, but I'm guessing.

I'm not going to pretend to know what would be a good match. I haven't played with one of those tables in over twenty yrs and I don't have one now to set up and experiment with. If cart cu is way too low for the arm mass, then res freq goes up near the audible band - no good. From your initial post I got the impression that you wanted to stay in the same price range as the 2M Black ($700). That would put the Rondo Blue and MC20 a little above what you're thinking?  You should consider other brands IMO. The better Ortofons are expensive. They have a new TOTL coming out - Anna- prob > $4.5K. Back down to Earth, the DL-S1 that Davey sugg is $950. Output is really low and it's non-permeable core doesn't get along with all phono stages. If you get a good match there, and with your arm, it might be the last cart, at least for quite awhile. The AT-33EV is well liked for $400 (J&R). You can also get a AT33PTG or PTGII, either for $400 or $600 from joynetmall.com These ATs are not as forward and aggressive as the OC9MKII. The PTGs have boron/microline and I'm sure imaging and detail are phenom. Compliance is the same as a 440 or 150. I think your chances for success are much better with the Denon or ATs.

If you want to think outside these constraints, you could get a Virtuoso with a busted cantilever for around $200 or so and send it to Soundsmith. For $150 he'll fit a new tapered cantilever w/nude ellip tip. Just tell him what your arm is - he can adjust cu. It's really good, no kidding. If I think of anything else that hasn't been mentioned, I'll post it.
neo

PS  Some tricks for getting a low cu cart to work better on low mass arm is to use a lead spacer with the cart. I have one that's 3.3g. Using an aux counterweight will improve tracking (moment of inertia). Put reg weight all the way to the pivot. Then add weight (modelling clay) to the rear until VTF is attained. If you don't like the look of the clay just weigh it and rig up something that looks better. It would also help if that weight is underslung - lower the center of gravity.

[SteveFord]

Thank you for your suggestions.
I should add that I didn't put sand in the arm, that's the way I understand they made them.