[JohnR]

With the "WAF" tossed out the window for a day or two, I'm enjoying "pushing the limits" of my system. I noticed a few days ago that the level in Pure Music was set at -60. OK, that was late-night listening, but I was still a bit surprised at the number. Right now, I am at -6.

Now, this is interesting, and I'd like to ask a question or two. FIRST OF ALL, please, self-appointed safety and health wankers, just shut up, I know all that, and am very observant of it. What I am really interested in here is the subjective differences between listening to Track A at X level, and at Y level. Where Y is a lot higher than X. It seems that it's not the same track at all - it is a completely different experience.

Are you with me Kyra?

[Redefy Audio]

ok, thats very loud. 
im using beyma12cx with passf5 diy and 200w symasym for dual 15".
the volume never reach beyond -6db, as it gets too damn loud.
i hope ur hearing is ok 

cheers
henry

[JohnR]

Well, those levels are relative, the question I am getting to is how the exact same thing can be a completely different experience at different (actual) levels. For example, if you went to a live (amplified) concert and the average SPL was the same as what you can regularly listen to at home, there would almost certainly be a lot of pissed-off concert-goers. Why is that?

[Redefy Audio]

u mean the goal of going to the concert is to get incredibly loud level listening?
i think the live performances takes more count rather than loud level.

sometimes i felt tired after listening loud, not my ears, but the whole experience through my body.

cheers
henry

[JohnR]

u mean the goal of going to the concert is to get incredibly loud level listening?

I don't know what your goal is, but that was just an example to try and illustrate the point I am trying to make. Which is: how you respond to music playback does depend quite a lot on the playback level. This seems to me like a fairly significant issue in any discussion of the merits of this or that speaker.

[jimdgoulding]

Well, louder can be is more visceral, certainly.  Lower can be sweeter, more intimate.  I think you have to put more of yourself into it.  For my tastes, a speaker must do the latter very well.

[Ericus Rex]

I've always thought it's simple physics; the louder the music is, the more the speaker cones move in and out, the more air you're pushing around the room, the more visceral the experience.  Rock music doesn't rock at low volumes b/c you're not pushing as much air.  Lower level of transients reduces the drive of rock music - IMO.

[neekomax]

I'm doing some loud listening as well. T-Pain right now, and just getting that deep bass all-over body massage. That's one of my favorite things... feeling the twin 300W subs in my SAM1s move air for real.

I find that I can/prefer to listen to compressed modern tracks a bit louder than very dynamic, pre-loudness wars recordings however. There's a time and place for each.

[Letitroll98]

I think it's right there in the thread title.  When comparing components responsible persons are very careful to match levels because louder always sounds better, at least initially.  Then listener fatigue becomes an issue.  If your system is a bit off somewhere, loud volume levels become irritating fairly quickly, and the converse if your system is dialed in you can play it loud all day.  The implied reverse, even bad systems sound sweeter, more relaxing, when the volume is lowered, may not be entirely correct.  I once heard an axiom whereby you can judge the quality of your system by how low you can turn the volume down and still have the same involving experience you have at higher volumes.  How true that is I don't know, but hints that the issue of perceived loudness is a complex interaction between accumulated system distortions, room interaction, and human hearing. 

[AJinFLA]

I'm doing some loud listening as well. T-Pain right now

T-Pain??? That's it, I'm issuing a recall on my speakers
Responded to your PM btw.

When comparing components responsible persons are very careful to match levels because louder always sounds better, at least initially.

True. Psycho-acousticians found out early that modest increases in level were not perceived as "louder", but "better". This continues to be a huge source of confusion amongst audiophiles, as to why it is critical to level match precisely, when comparing things.

Now with regards to John's premise of varied perception due to loudness, I agree. Some music demands to be played at volumes where the experience becomes visceral/physical, eliciting a greater connection to reality, as one might perceive it live.
Within reason of course.

cheers,

AJ

[neekomax]

Some music demands to be played at volumes where the experience becomes visceral/physical, eliciting a greater connection to reality, as one might perceive it live.

Yeah. Like T-Pain for example.

Actually, just pulled it up on Spotify and listened to a few tracks just for the bass. Bumps nicely.

I also notice that after a while, I become less sensitive to loudness, and 'loud' becomes a higher and higher level.

Here's a question: I have my Peachtree Decco as variable level preamp, and there is also volume control on my Acurus amp. How high should the Acurus be set (right now it's at 12:00) in general? Should the power amp be turned up higher and finer adjustments be done on the Decco, or lower, and use the Decco's full volume pot's range?

[charmerci]

To throw another wrench into this thread....

I have found that there are some recordings are much, much better at high levels.

So at moderate levels, I just don't think the quality is that great but when I crank up the sound, it sounds like the whole band is in my room.

Four CD's do this for me -

Paul Simon's There Goes Rhymin' Simon
(This is the original CD. I haven't heard the remastered version. I sometimes find the remastered CD's -especially 24bit ones - metalic sounding)

Zoot Sims At Ease (MFSL version) - Alabamy Home

Junior Mance at the Village Vanguard

America - Holiday (The European version)

[jimdgoulding]

Speaking of levels, perspective is controllable on some recordings using the volume control.  On discreetly miked classical recordings, for example, it is possible to dial in front, mid, or rear hall without distortion of the stage.  It will expand on contract as your imaginary seat becomes closer of further away.

[youravhandyman]

Since it's opinion that we were asked for mine is that fine details that would just be to soft to hear at lower levels are now more noticible when the levels are raised.  Now I agree that you would get listener fatigue much faster at higher volumes.  But if you are straining to hear something you think should be there that can be fatiguing as well.
My example for listening at higher levels is that I'm currently breaking in a new pair of Atlantic Technology AT1's and they just don't come alive until you give them some power.  I noticed background vocals and different recorded material that I just couldn't hear at lower levels.  Could it be my system?  Sure.  But this is just my experience.
 
Matt

[AJinFLA]

Speed typing earlier, didn't have chance to post this.
One (of many ) sources of confusion is that somehow, it is the electro-acoustic "equipment" that changes characteristics, but listener perceptions do not. It does (as do loudspeakers, though not nearly as much)!
As can be clearly seen in the equal loudness contours (Fletcher-Munson being one of the more famous):



...our perception changes with loudness.

cheers,

AJ

[Æ]

Fletcher-Munson being one of the more famous.

You're so old school. . . Fletcher-Munson is not Robinson-Dadson!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contours

[Duke]

What I am really interested in here is the subjective differences between listening to Track A at X level, and at Y level. Where Y is a lot higher than X. It seems that it's not the same track at all - it is a completely different experience.

Perceived pitch shifts slightly between low and high SPLs, so the harmonic relationships might be more correct at high SPL, which would be where the band normally plays.

Details that are below the threshold of audibility at low levels become audible at high levels.  On the other hand, distortions that are below the threshold at low levels would also become audible and objectionable at high levels. 

The thermal and mechanical compression characteristics of the speakers can play a role.  So can the distortion behavior of the amplifier.   Some amps sound worse at very low power levels.

[JLM]

Assuming the total spl range you're listening to (with all the volume settings you're using) are between the noise floor and distortion ceiling), the F/M pheom is the first explanation.  BTW noise floor can include surroundings (rock concerts being the worst) and what your ears/brain can tolerate (which can include annoyance, that for me includes county twangs).  And as mentioned above, the human animal is very adaptable and so can acclamate to higher spls.

AJ/Duke/others more qualified can address this, but IMO speakers (like all things mechanical) are susceptable of having a "prime operating range".  I wish reviewers would audition at 80 - 90 dB (where most of us I believe listen routinely).  And yes, we've probably all read where spls differences of less than 1 dB (what's perceivable) can make one system sound better than another.