DACS with HDMI?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 6419 times.

simon wagstaff

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 425
DACS with HDMI?
« on: 16 Jan 2012, 04:24 pm »
Maybe not the right place to ask this but I don't know where else and you guys are all uber-smart.

I am thinking about an external DAC but I have a lot of DVD-A and SACDs. I also want the best sound from blu-ray, if they ever come out with any blu ray music discs. I am not so interested in multi-channel but do want the best stereo sound if possible.

Currently I am using a Denon blu ray player and A100 receiver connected via Denon-link 4. Sound is very good but think that I could get a little more transparency and a wider sound stage.

Have recently seen one of those digital audio strippers for HDMI but of even more interest is the new DAC from NAD that has a stereo HDMI input.

Anybody know anything about HDMI and digital inputs and what the limitations might be? Any chance of an HDMI input on the ultra-dac? is this a new trend or yet another audio red herring?

Thanks and apologies if this is not the right place.

Netdewt

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 62
Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #1 on: 16 Jan 2012, 04:53 pm »
I think I noticed that the Wyred 4 Sound DAC 2 also has an HDMI, and they say it's I2S, which I believe is the transport method used inside of the DAC. I'm stretching here. I don't totally understand all that. But using I2S sounds awesome to me.

simon wagstaff

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 425
Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #2 on: 16 Jan 2012, 05:14 pm »
The old Audio alchemy units used to have I2S as well, it is a proprietary cable. the Denon Link is a simple ethernet cable.

HDMi has it's limitations I think but it is the primary way to get digital signals from DVD-A, SACD (converted to PCM first I think) and blu ray audio. it is the de facto cable/interface to do this.

mathgeek97

Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #3 on: 16 Jan 2012, 06:42 pm »

simon wagstaff

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 425
Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #4 on: 16 Jan 2012, 07:39 pm »
yes, I have read that one. There are now some dacs coming out with stereo hdmi input.

trebejo

Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #5 on: 16 Jan 2012, 11:30 pm »
Well, I don't know, I just let my good apple computer handle these conversions. I think the ones with linux and the ones with whatever bill gates is calling his OS this year may have even better options (did I just type that?  :o).

Note: all my comments below apply to what we do to listen to music at home. What needs to be done in a recording studio or a music production environment may have very different requirements. Once the music is finished however there is a simple downsampling algorithm that can be used to bring things back to the usual bit stream used in good ol' CDs.

The basic problem is that Frank builds his stuff to last 30 years (sorry if I'm shortchanging you there Frank). Do you expect the HDMI cable to remain the same for 30 years?

One thing that I expect to remain the same for the next N years (N being the finite number of years left for humanity) is the theorem credited to Shannon whereby he established that a sampling rate of 2F is sufficient to reconstruct all the information in a wave up to a frequency of F. Hence once we had a handle on sampling rates of around 40 khz, we had all we need until we do an upgrade on our ears.

(btw that WILL totally suck, the day little humans start coming out with 100 khz ears, 20th century music is going to sound awful to them (and I doubt they'll care much for snap crackle pop either).)

So as far as the frequency domain goes I think we're covered. As far the amplitude (i.e. volume, loudness, etc.), supposedly there is some improvement in going from 16 bits to More bits. Now in principle 16 bits gives you 96db of variation. Do you think you live in a listening environment where the noise floor is down 96db? Now, granted, if you are flying out in space with Hal and he makes a vacuum bubble around your listening chamber then maybe you can get such a noise floor, but I suspect that even by breathing we are already disrupting things a bit.

I think that realistically even 40 db is probably enough, once again due to various real-world constraints on the diminution of noise. The one place where you might have a fighting chance is with spectacularly excellent headphones, but then where does the bass go? And besides, the best headphones are open anyway.  :duh:

The upshot of all of the above is that there is a hell of a lot of stretching and reacommodating and retooling and rewhatevering being done for the sake of hearing better at 40 khz and hearing better the difference between 119 db and 120 db down from maximum output. Couple that with the large mountain of proper math standing between any one of us and the spec vomiting marketroids who insist that our minds be linear in the "bigger is better" so as to be shoppingest and wastefulmest and pollutingmest and toxicmest and deadliest, and basically I come to the conclusion that I'm getting mine pulled for all the wrong reasons.

Oh, I almost forgot. Digital storage goes up by several factors when you up the bits. Currently you can fit 1500 lossless CDs on a 500 MB hard drive, which is a pretty respectable personal music collection and easily portable with a 2.5" hard drive and a USB cable (say); flash drives go accordingly. All of the above becomes more difficult or even eventually practically impossible as the individual music files become bigger or re-encoded to the latest-n-bloatiest.

Final upshot--what really makes a difference is a great analog stage feeding a great preamp feeding a great amp feeding a great pair of speakers.

So to bring it back to Do, I'll just let the computer or whatever they'll be calling the codec containing gadget in 20 years handle these tasks, and just get a steady bitstream of 0s and 1s to the AVA Dac and enjoy much better music than almost anyone else I know. :thumb:

simon wagstaff

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 425
Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #6 on: 17 Jan 2012, 12:18 am »
Well, I have had THIS discussion before. 24 bit sounds superior to me than 16 bit and it worth the effort. It is not just a matter of signal to noise ratio, it is the blackness that sound recedes into. With analogue there is hiss, but the signal is still there. 16 bit truncates the blackness, 24 bit has a wider soundstage to me, more ambience. When I listen to a 24 bit live recording the background chatter, for example, is much more annoying.

Certainly analogue and records have their place. While my post may not be relevant to this group, I thought it might be a knowledgable and informed group to pose the question to.

You seem to have put a lot of effort into a totally irrelevant post that basically says "I am a luddite."

You could have saved yourself a lot of effort by simply stating "Lps and 16 bit audio is good enough for me."

sorry.

trebejo

Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #7 on: 17 Jan 2012, 02:35 am »
Well, I have had THIS discussion before. 24 bit sounds superior to me than 16 bit and it worth the effort. It is not just a matter of signal to noise ratio, it is the blackness that sound recedes into. With analogue there is hiss, but the signal is still there. 16 bit truncates the blackness, 24 bit has a wider soundstage to me, more ambience. When I listen to a 24 bit live recording the background chatter, for example, is much more annoying.

Certainly analogue and records have their place. While my post may not be relevant to this group, I thought it might be a knowledgable and informed group to pose the question to.

You seem to have put a lot of effort into a totally irrelevant post that basically says "I am a luddite."

You could have saved yourself a lot of effort by simply stating "Lps and 16 bit audio is good enough for me."

sorry.

Thanks for the putdown.

I mentioned a theorem, btw.

simon wagstaff

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 425
Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #8 on: 17 Jan 2012, 03:41 am »
Well, in a way, now that I have thought about it, your post is most valid in it's own way. The fact of the matter is that somebody like me, who wants to put together a system for both music and movies is a bit stuck. The fact of the matter is that most folks don't really care about getting audio, or more precisely, high quality audio from a disc anymore.

Just about the only way to extract high rez digital audio from a blu ray disc, DVD-A or SACD is via the HDMI output. The audio stripper seems like a cludgy approach, to me.

There seems to be very little support for high quality audio played back on a plastic disc.

I suppose in just a few years time the blu ray format would fade away. It wouldn't surprise me.

In the meantime I will make do with the Denon link, seems to be the best compromise.

No offense meant.

trebejo

Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #9 on: 17 Jan 2012, 04:43 am »
Well these things happen when telecomming, I'm sure I'd understand what you're saying much better if we were just chatting in a cafe with our laptops in front of us but with clunky online grammar that is the best I can do.

Here's something that may or may not help, but at least it sheds light on why the whole thing is such a hairball,

http://lifehacker.com/5806252/how-can-i-play-blu+ray-discs-on-my-computer

and furthermore, VLC is finally getting around to doing this,

http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=96787
http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=95937

Alas, SONY has done an obnoxious thing...

simon wagstaff

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 425
Re: DACS with HDMI?
« Reply #10 on: 17 Jan 2012, 03:43 pm »
it is all about copy protection, that trick never works...