Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?

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josh358

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #20 on: 10 Sep 2011, 03:29 am »
I'd say Sound Labs are the way to go if you want big sound and deep bass from a stat. Stats need lots of surface area because of fundamental physical limits.

The Acoustats are well nigh indestructible and will easily outpunch a Quad.

Apogees can be superb, depending on the model (some early ones had very erratic tuning). Their sound is somewhere between electrostatics and pre-.7 Magnepans and they will get quite loud. But the true ribbon midranges can be problematic at high listening levels.

The 1.7's and 3.7's are apparently more stat like than the earlier Maggies, still haven't heard them. The 3.7's bass goes down to about 40 Hz and HP is calling it the most accurate speaker he's ever heard. For more bass, there's the 20.1, which is spec'd at 25 Hz, and for more bass still, the big old Tympanis, which are widely considered to have the best midbass of any speakers ever made. I used to have Tympani 1-D's and in the bass, the combination of planar clarity and near-dynamic punch and extension never failed to delight me. The IV's and IVA's go even deeper.

If I had lots of space and wanted to construct the ultimate low WAF speaker, I think I'd combine Tympani IVA woofer panels, an electrostatic midrange, and the Magnepan ribbon tweeter. I don't think anything available commercially could match that, not that I've heard, anyway, and you could do it on a dime.

Maybe also Bruce Pick's rotary sub, so I could get back at the boom cars . . .

katamapah

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #21 on: 11 Sep 2011, 07:36 pm »
This weekend i was finally able to listen to Quad 989
The setup included Quad2-40 mono blocks and Quad99CDP - basic cd+preamp from Quad. The speakers were just few days old, so those are definitely "first" impressions.

First of all - the look. I did like the look of those.
Read a lot of negative feedbacks, in my opinion they are surely not the prettiest speakers around, but i had no problem with their looks. The white-blue finish is pretty nice overall. They are pretty solid-standing too, although i felt this aspect still could be improved. (ESL2905 :-)

As for the sound...
Here i have some mixed feelings compared to ESL63.
First, i have to say again:
a) These speakers were just few days old
b) There was no critical placement done for the speakers and during the listening session i felt it is a must with those. They were "generally placed as suggested", but without critical fine tuning.
c) I don't like the Quad 99CDP. I have had several opportunities to listen to this preamp-cd and i think it is not very musical, somewhat harsh, not too revealing - in one word very basic and not a match for 989 (even the 63).

Having said that i was depressed not to hear the magic of ESL63 mid-range - their unmatched musicality, acoustic sound being slowly decayed etc. It exhibit little magic i remember from ESL63. On the positive side, i somehow felt it might be improved, since my feeling was those speakers ARE MUCH MORE SENSITIVE to a-b-c above (break in, placement, source/pre amp and the recordings).

Other impressions: bass was much better, still not very deep or dynamic-like bass (no "wooo", no air movement), but significantly improves the contra-bass and organ pieces.
Much more presence and substance then ESL63 - they were almost "flat" and had zero bass.

Also the slam and general presence/substance - MUCH better then ESL63.

Certainly less compressed than ESL63.
More sonically neutral than already neutral ESL63
More precise (better resolution), less directional in treble.

It seems like 989 bass has some hole. The transition from mid-bass to a deeper bass in not always flat.

Generally, my impression was: Those speakers while being more neutral, more precise (still not greatest precision around), having better frequency response and dispersion, being better dynamically had become closer to "traditional" speakers sound wise and have lost much of old ESLs magic.
Again, my feeling is that at least some of this magic may be gained back, by breaking-in, positioning and matching the equipment. Those are much more revealing and sensitive speakers than ESL63. Less forgiving. Up to a complete dissatisfaction !


Music types.
Bottom line, they were better with rock than 63.
Rock became listenable on some minimalistic level, but
still far from being good enough or even satisfying.
By rock i mean Led Zeppelin, Queen, King Crimson.
Not the heavy rock.

On other types of music - classic (easy classic, organ music, Beethoven's 9 symphony) - much better result than 63. Image, presence, absolutely listenable and enjoyable.
Acoustic rock - Also, better presence, more substance.
Jazz/Vocals - good.

So, this speakers are still not good for rock. Not even try.
Additional bass panels do improve presence, substance and make low octaves listenable.
Could the magic of ESL63 be regained ?
That's the question....
If yes, clearly an improvement over ESL63.
Otherwise... you have a more traditional like, magic-less sound from the electrostatic speaker...

What is other people's impression of 989 ?
How it compares to 2905 ?


P.S. Comparing 989 to Martin Logan hybrids it seems like a still better dynamics/bass could be obtained by matching smaller 988/63 with a dynamic woofer rather then having 989. Not sure how they will work together. Never tried it.
On different forums once could find many positive or negative opinions for this option.


Apogees and Sound Labs are not really popular in my place.
Need to make some effort to find them second hand or at least have a chance to listen first...

jmserre

Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #22 on: 30 Sep 2011, 08:24 pm »
katamapah

I understand most of what you said about the 989  (I have heard them only once) but for now will assume they are similar to my 2905.  The bit I am not sure about is,,,,

Having said that i was depressed not to hear the magic of ESL63 mid-range

OK, If I play a stereo recording with nothing in the low frequencies (Example
http://www.musiqueenmulticanaux.com/EnVivaldiWik2L.html) and I play it on my 2905, then I play it on my ESL-63 (not a perfect comparison, cables are better on the 2905 etc. on my own system)
You are saying you think the ESL-63 will be better?  I answer not at all it will be very nice on both.  Do not forget that the middle pannels with the concentric delay rings are the same in all cases.  I think the new generation are more rigid which is probably helping in terms of micro-details and when playing close to their limits, but I do not think any magic was lost.
So on my own (admitedly biased set-up) the 2905 will be slightly better than my trusted old ESL-63.

Cheers.

dlaloum

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #23 on: 1 Oct 2011, 10:02 am »
I'm a bit late to this topic.. but

Up to around 3 years ago I owned Quad ESL(57), ESL63, and ESL989

My final setup with the 989's as the home theatre front and the 63's for the rear was to put it simply awesome.

Now with regards to various comments...

I tried for years to get the additional bass oomph for the 63's with various subs - the subs could never match the speed and tone of the 63's so the end result always sounded disconnected, wrong...

The 989's fixed this - it was all there - fantastic.

BUT... years ago when I used to sell Audio kit, I remember we had the Boston A400's up alongside the Quad 63's....
The Quads (even the 989) cannot match that bass drum "thump" that hits you in the gut with distinct physical impact... - it just never does that.

But for a coherent top to bottom sound with all frequencies in place as they should be - they are fabulous.
They are dynamically fantastic, and have better dynamics than almost any other speaker I have heard.... their strength is in micro-detail within the music that other speakers simply gloss over....

They are level constrained - and if you like your music VERY loud - forget it.
As long as you run within their level constraints, they have no dynamic compression - far from it.
Most critical with the quads is making the listening environment quiet enough to really be able to hear and appreciate how much is going on in the depths of the mix - at the lower levels, the very fine detail that you normally miss as the main drive of the music is 30db+ higher....

There are two ways to be able to perceive these details - raise the volume of everything so that the quietest recorded details are raised above the background noise threshold (around 35db is not unusual as a base level.... and if the recording has a decent dynamic range of say 70db then we are talking peak levels of 105db + as a minimum)
Doing it this way requires LOUD speakers - along with amplifiers capable of driving them to these levels without compression/current supply issues.... by no means a given!

Run the Quads in a quiet room, and you can have peaks of around 100db without too much trouble - with average levels at say 80db, and they will reproduce microdetail down to whatever level you are capable of hearing.

Most dynamic speakers simply won't do that - they need a certain amount of "drive" to get them going - so they gloss over the fine stuff.

WAF issues led to the Quads leaving the premises.... they were replaced by a set of Gallo Ref3.1 - which are very good, and the CDT tweeter almost matches the Quads..... ALMOST - but not quite.... on big music with loud sections using highly complex interweaved detailed themes (think symphonic crescendo) - the Gallo's will not seperate out the individual instruments and details the way the Quads do. C'est la vie.... and the price of domestic bliss. On the other hand the Gallo's do a good line in bass....

The gut thumping effect of the Boston A400's just does not happen with the Quads (not even the 989). So if this is what one is seeking - they are not the right speaker.

Note: I did do extensive listening to Maggies, and ML CLS - I never really liked the ML hybrids with the dynamic subwoofer and ESL top end - again they had that disconnected effect that bugged me with my subwoofer attempts on the Quads. The CLS and the big Maggies did not suffer from that.... seemed to me that the Maggies could play louder than the Quads but did not achieve the same level of microdetail (it has been 10 years since I listened to Maggies) - the CLS sounded different - and was a definite contender ... but in the end I liked the Quads better.

I will not be looking at speakers again until I have a proper man cave where I can set something up.... at which time I will be auditioning Quads as my first cab off the rank....

oboaudio

Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #24 on: 1 Oct 2011, 01:30 pm »
The Magneplanar Tympani IV,s are awesome with Martin Logan electrostatics and also the TRW-17
rotary subwoofer.    The only other combination that is as good, is the Apogee Scintillas, Stages for
midrange and Hill Plasmatronics for highs ( from 700 hz on up to 100,000 hz.   The Apogee Scintillas
which has a 1 ohm load, requires an amplifier like the Krell FBC 600C (2400 watts at 2 ohms)


katamapah

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #25 on: 9 Oct 2011, 07:29 pm »
Sorry guys, have not been here for a while...
The discussion is still relevant to me because i still didn't make my final decision.
Also, i have the opportunity to buy a 2nd hand pair of ESL2905 (about 1.5 yrs old, still on the warranty by local dealer) for about the same price
as new ESL989 (i don't know whenever 988/989 line is discontinued or not, in case they are - those are probably a left overs from the local dealer).
Anyway...



2jmserre
=======
Hi,
Actually, I would like to hear your impressions of ESL2905 specially with rock/pop/large scale dynamic music (with respect to macro-dynamics and
sound congestion. By congestion i don't mean the SPL levels, but quash (compress) dynamic range, not loudness, but rather the CONTRAST between dynamic crescendo and low level passages.)

As for your question, again, ESL989 were analytically better in every aspect than ESL63.
They had a better slam and bass, they were more neutral with better inner detailing, they were less congested...
But somehow... 989 were closer in sound to modern high-end speakers exhibiting more precision than emotions...
TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.
Also, note the disclaimer from my original post regarding 989
a) These speakers were just few days old - no proper break in, just few hours of play
b) There was no critical placement done for the speakers and during the listening session i felt it is a must with those. They were "generally placed as suggested", but without critical fine tuning.
c) I don't like the Quad 99CDP. I have had several opportunities to listen to this preamp-cd and i think it is not very musical, somewhat harsh, not too revealing - in one word very basic and not a match for 989 (even the 63).
d) The room wasn't big. About 16sq. m.

One thing for certain, i felt 989 is much more sensitive to all small changes around (placement, equipment) then 63.

BTW i think the panels of 989 differ a bit from 63. 989 and 2905 has additional bass panel per speaker as compared to 63.
In 989 not just the middle panels have concentric delay rings, but also one bass panel out of two.
I think in 2905 Quad reverted to original design (or vice versa).



2dlaloum
======
My impressions are actually very similar to yours.
ESL989 were far less congested (in the way i define it above) then ESL63 and probably 2905 are even less congested.
Mostly I have 2 problems with 989:
1. compared to ESL63 - certain lack of "magic", again as i define it above... i had the feeling that 989 sound was more analytical than 63's at the cost
of musicality 63 posses... (may be i am used to 63 and as a result biased toward them, may be it is due to break in issues, after all 989 were few hours old).
I felt that 989 has more of Magnepan sound than 63. "Harshier".

2. macro dynamics. Rock, Pop music - better than ESL63, but still not good enough to enjoy pop/rock as one would expect from a speaker
at this price range. It is not the "bass" alone, it is just the whole "impact", "slam" that is missing...
Those speakers just doesn't suit to rock and pop - IMHO, or probably they needed a different setup. May be 40watts, QuadII-40 monoblocks weren't
strong enough to drive them with dynamic music ?



2oboaudio
========

I heard a lot about Tympani and Scintillas, but couldn't listen to them so far.
I should be able to listen to Duetta Sigs within a few weeks time...

dlaloum

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #26 on: 9 Oct 2011, 11:11 pm »
I think you are right about the amplification.

The Quad II-40's just won't get the drive from them that a more powerful amp can.

When I had the 989's, I ran them with a 606.... I do not recall any harshness, and they did not lack for upper or midrange "guts" - but bottom end slam was still constrained. You need something that moves more air than an ESL can for that! - or perhaps a really huge ESL - like double the bass surface of a 989 or 2905.

bye for now
David

AUDFILE74

Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #27 on: 9 Oct 2011, 11:50 pm »
http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/Product.aspx?lang=En&Tab=36 THese are supposed to match quite well with the 2905. i heard a pair of 988 driven by a parasound halo a23 and the combo was mindbogling good. quads have ruined me in a good way. lol

katamapah

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #28 on: 10 Oct 2011, 04:24 pm »
I spoke with some long-time ESL owner, who has had ESL57,63,988 and listened extensively to 989 and in his opinion despite the fact QuadII-40 are "certified" for use with 989/2905 they do not have enough power to drive them properly. QuadII-80 should be more up to a task, or SS amplifiers about 100watts (or more).

In his opinion also, 989 doesn't have enough "slam" for more dynamic rock music or large orchestra music. He liked a lot a quality of planar speakers, so currently he is using Duetta Sigs and for him personally they sounds better then Quad, and more important - "less limited".
I will try to arrange a listening session with him.

He also raised a concern about reliability of Quad ESLs, including the new ones (98X/2X05)
Did you guys have any reliability issues with those speakers ? Panels/Power chord ?

dlaloum

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #29 on: 10 Oct 2011, 11:43 pm »
When I first purchase the ESL63 (1996) some panels needed changing as they had arced....

They then ran perfectly, until 2004 when they were moved on.

The 989's I owned for only 3 years, never had a problem (moved on due to domestic restrictions :?)

The ESL57's are delicate - but with the right amp - I have not had a problem.

With the ESL's you have two options - 1) pick an amp that cannot damage them  or 2) be careful with the volume knob (ALWAYS).

Yes you can ARC an ESL - although the later models have safety circuits that kick in to protect the speaker....

If looked after - they will last very well indeed....

I ran Quad ESL's from 1986 to 2007...

katamapah

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #30 on: 6 Nov 2011, 05:21 pm »
Not connected to planar speakers, but still connected to the original post...
Recently i've listened to a pair of vintage JBL L300 recommended by a friend.

My impressions of JBL L300 were very positive.
I understand why some people fall for them.
They are musical and have very sweet vintage(still quite refine and not exceptionally over colored) sound that suits classic rock and jazz. Easy on ears. Big box speakers with deep rich sound.
Overall for me they were nice - very good for classic rock and jazz; OK with modern/electronic music and classical. Not as huge bass as one might expect. Need a room space and an SPL volume to reach saturation. Not as refine as today speakers. Different sound from most modern speakers.
Still couldn't call it "a sound i am looking for".
Will continue with the search :-)
SF Guarneri, KEF 107 and Vandersteen 3A seems to be next on my list. Probably Von Shweikert.
As for planar speakers, still looking for some 2nd hand Apogees to listen to...

josh358

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #31 on: 6 Nov 2011, 08:24 pm »
Suggest you do some research on the Apogees before listening, they really were very variable in voicing and quality, more so than the Magnepans. So it's important to know which versions are the best bet.

I wouldn't bother with vintage dynamics. Dynamics have improved too much in recent years. Whereas with stats and planars, the sound you got 30 years ago isn't that much worse than what you'll hear today.

SteveFord

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #32 on: 6 Nov 2011, 10:07 pm »
At the risk of derailing this thread, speakers have come quite a ways in 30 years.   

josh358

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #33 on: 7 Nov 2011, 02:15 am »
Yeah, I agree, in the case of dynamics, anyway. For the most part the old ones aren't worth resurrecting for anything other than historical purposes or use in a second system.

The improvement in planars, OTOH, has been much more gradual. In some respects, it's been retrograde, e.g., the Tympani bass still hasn't been equaled, or the Beveridge soundstage. Some say that the Apogees are still better than Maggies (though I would add the caveat *some* Apogees, because some of the earlier ones were very colored). And there are still a lot of people running Acoustats . . .

katamapah

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #34 on: 7 Nov 2011, 04:16 pm »
I was recommended Apogee Duetta Sigs or Scintila or Caliper.
BTW, did anyone heard a Mistral Speakers presented in US by NAPA Acoustics ?
http://www.mistralaudio.com/

They are "English" speakers built in China, but anyway.

josh358

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Re: Quad 989/2905 all around qualities ?
« Reply #35 on: 7 Nov 2011, 10:32 pm »
All three are being offered on Audiogon right now but check the prices first to see if they're in line.\

Here's a review of the Caliper:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/911/index.html