X-LS build question

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Captainhemo

Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #20 on: 7 Oct 2015, 02:25 am »

Iron on with Titebond II works but has a high failure rate 2-3 years down the road so that is up to you if you want to take the chance.
I really don't see any reason to use anything else than Heat-Lock unless you can't get it. It is just too easy to work with.

Doh, I don't like hearing that  :nono:
I didn't use Tiitebond but it was a PVA.  Hope as time goes by, my sister doesn't start having issues with her Encores.
Sure wish someone would start carrying the  HeatLock up here althogh, I did read some threads a while back where people had experienced simlar issues with heatlock. If I recall correctly, many said it was likely due to not letting the heat lock dry completely before heating and locking  in place.

jay

mlundy57

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #21 on: 7 Oct 2015, 03:33 am »
Doh, I don't like hearing that  :nono:
I didn't use Tiitebond but it was a PVA.  Hope as time goes by, my sister doesn't start having issues with her Encores.
Sure wish someone would start carrying the  HeatLock up here althogh, I did read some threads a while back where people had experienced simlar issues with heatlock. If I recall correctly, many said it was likely due to not letting the heat lock dry completely before heating and locking  in place.

jay

Jay,

Have you checked out veneersupplies.com? The notes on their webpage about Heat Lock say it cannot be shipped outside the USA and Canada. That sounds like they could ship it to you.

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Better-Bond-Heat-Lock-Veneer-Glue.html

Mike

kwhitman

Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #22 on: 7 Oct 2015, 03:39 am »
Thanks for the advice.  It appears like Heat-Lock is another viable option.  I'll read up on the subject with some of the links provided.  I made a little progress tonight.  I have the leads soldered onto the crossovers and both are mounted in the base of the cabinets.  I started on the No-Rez tonight.  One cabinet is complete but I ran out of time.  The other cabinet will have to wait until tomorrow.  I will take some more pictures tomorrow and update the board.  I bet you guys are tired of looking at another X-LS build.  I saw the thread on the pair Lacro built and professionally finished.  It makes me want to just quit now!  What a beautiful set of speakers and stands.  Very top notch!!  There sure is a lot of talent on this circle and I appreciate all the advice and support.

Kris

mlundy57

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #23 on: 7 Oct 2015, 04:09 am »
Kris,

Not at all. For one thing, the X-LS (and all the X-Series) are really great speakers. We all like seeing what other folks do. Gives us new ideas. Plus it's just plain fun.

Mike

Keithh

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #24 on: 7 Oct 2015, 04:37 am »
Quote
How do you keep the seams tight when using heat lock/iron on method with raw wood veneer?  No matter how tight I have the seam when I iron it down, once the wood cools it shrinks and I end up with a slight crack. The crack is not very big but big enough for the seam to show.


Mike,

Sorry, can't help you with that. I could not get nice seams either so I just use sheets that are big enough to cover the full area.
I know that rules out some veneers, like Zebrawood, but there are lots of veneers that are available in wide widths.

Peter J

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #25 on: 7 Oct 2015, 04:49 am »
Heat-Lock is definitely the best way to go and the easiest. It works with both raw and paper packed veneer. I used to use paper backed veneer but now use raw veneer.
It is really easy to find beautiful pieces of raw veneer to fit whatever speaker you are building. And you get to choose your veneer instead of getting a mystery
sheet of paper backed veneer. Raw veneer is also thicker so it easier to work with.
Contact cements are not what they used to be. Most of the water based ones are terrible. Titan DX is an exception and is available from Veneer Supplies too.
DAP contact cement in the red can is pretty good if you can still find it. Stay away from the blue and green cans of DAP.
Iron on with Titebond II works but has a high failure rate 2-3 years down the road so that is up to you if you want to take the chance.
I really don't see any reason to use anything else than Heat-Lock unless you can't get it. It is just too easy to work with.

I've never used Heatlock so can't speak to it's actual use, but I'd guess it's some form of PVA glue...like Titebond. 

I'd be curious to know more about the alleged failures of Titebond II though. In my experience glue rarely, if ever, fails. It's far more likely an installation or substrate problem. I remembered something read long ago about using it for iron on veneering, so I pulled out a couple of books and boned up some.

White glue has a relatively low "reactivation" temperature...180°. Turns out its actually the easiest to use because of that. Veneer is not a structural element so killer strength just isn't required.  Red label Titebond re-liquifies at about 250° so you've gotta get your iron hotter to make it work.  Because of it's formulation, Titebond II requires about 350°. I don't know if household irons even get that hot. Given that, I'd guess that the "failure" was actually never bonded properly in the first place.

We humans have a nasty habit of assuming if something is better for one application it must be better for another. Not the case for wood glues and veneers. What would be the need for a water resistant bond on a speaker? You'd have a whole bunch of other problems if it ever got wet enough to re-liquefy even white glue.

When it comes to contact glue, I've tried many, but have a head and shoulders favorite and that's 3M 30NF. If it's got a downside it's that it takes longer to flash than solvent based glues. Well, that and it's about $100 a gallon! I generally wouldn't contact glue with veneer but it has it's place.


Peter J

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #26 on: 7 Oct 2015, 04:57 am »
How do you keep the seams tight when using heat lock/iron on method with raw wood veneer?  No matter how tight I have the seam when I iron it down, once the wood cools it shrinks and I end up with a slight crack. The crack is not very big but big enough for the seam to show.

That's the forever question, Mike.  Especially when using iron on technique you're introducing moisture and heat into the veneer and then when it dries it shrinks...wood does that. Easiest way I've found, assuming you can with given project, is to figure it's going to happen and design with that in mind. An inlay, a corner, a design element. FWIW water based glues do this the worst. If you really want to go nuts and smell up your shop you can get a glue pot and hide glue, it wont do it nearly as bad, but comes with it's own baggage and quirks!

Captainhemo

Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #27 on: 7 Oct 2015, 05:42 am »
Jay,

Have you checked out veneersupplies.com? The notes on their webpage about Heat Lock say it cannot be shipped outside the USA and Canada. That sounds like they could ship it to you.

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Better-Bond-Heat-Lock-Veneer-Glue.html

Mike

Yes, I did talk to them at one point but the shipping costs were brutal.  This was the reason I ened up doing some  digging and went  to the PVA/iron on method.
I went out in the  garage this eve and dug up some of the test boards I did using this method.  I don't think you could remove the veneer without  either destroying it or possibly re-activating the glue again with an iron. I really  doubt  I'll see a failure down the road, I guess time will tell. Like I mentioned, the PVA I used was not  Titebond II, it was actually a PVA called LePage Carpenter's Glue .
Now that Peter  brings it up,  the possibility that people had not used  enough heat was also cited as a possible issue to the heat lock failures I had read about when researching the different methods of application.

Kris,

Not at all. For one thing, the X-LS (and all the X-Series) are really great speakers. We all like seeing what other folks do. Gives us new ideas. Plus it's just plain fun.

Mike

Totally agree   :beer:

jay

mlundy57

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #28 on: 7 Oct 2015, 05:50 am »
That's the forever question, Mike.  Especially when using iron on technique you're introducing moisture and heat into the veneer and then when it dries it shrinks...wood does that. Easiest way I've found, assuming you can with given project, is to figure it's going to happen and design with that in mind. An inlay, a corner, a design element. FWIW water based glues do this the worst. If you really want to go nuts and smell up your shop you can get a glue pot and hide glue, it wont do it nearly as bad, but comes with it's own baggage and quirks!

Peter,

That's why I decided if I am doing a project that goes around curves so I need to use the iron and it is wider than a single piece of raw wood veneer I will only used backed veneers. If a single piece of raw veneer will cover it than raw is an option, with the iron. If the area is wider than a single piece of raw veneer but has straight edges I would consider using raw veneer with cold press glue and a vacuum bag. I just don't happen to have a vacuum set up right now.

I'm also thinking about using your solid wood inlay technique around the top of the 12" Wedge cabinets I'm building. I would like to round over the vertical edges on the front and the edges around the top. Since veneer can only be rolled in one plane the hardwood inlay is the only thing I can think of that would work.

Mike

Keithh

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #29 on: 7 Oct 2015, 02:56 pm »
Quote
Easiest way I've found, assuming you can with given project, is to figure it's going to happen and design with that in mind. An inlay, a corner, a design element.

Mike,

This is what I am doing on my Wedge Base to use pieces of 17" x 30" raw veneer.


Each one of those top pieces will be 1-1/4" wide with a roundover. That still leaves a 1/4" lip on each side. Then each side can be veneered and a 3-1/4" center piece can be glued in to get the overall   5-3/4" width. Center piece will most likely be painted black.

Peter J

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #30 on: 7 Oct 2015, 03:46 pm »
I apologize for taking this thread off topic somewhat, but my curiosity got the better of me and the info might be useful to others.

Now, I don't iron much, but it occurred to me that I really had no idea what temperature the old shop iron is actually running. Given it's intended use, it has settings such as cotton, wool, linen. Vague by necessity, I suppose.

I used an infra red thermometer to measure it's actual temperature. At it's lowest setting it leveled off at about 165°. Midway between highest and lowest setting it clocks in at around 260°. At it's highest setting it stabilized at about 340°. Assuming this is typical of household irons, it seems entirely possible that one could not " re-activate" glue like Titebond II. That's enough evidence to steer me clear and bring into question the supposed "failures".


kwhitman

X-LS build question
« Reply #31 on: 9 Oct 2015, 02:08 am »
A little more progress.  Finished the No-Rez and crossover installation.  On goes the front baffles!  Now we wait until tomorrow for the glue to dry so I can run the front baffle over the flush trim bit.  Then a little sanding to see if any filling will be necessary.   Then I might have to install the drivers, port, and rear plugs for a test run :D

Here are a few more pics....sorry if it gets a little boring watching glue dry :green:









Danny Richie

Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #32 on: 9 Oct 2015, 02:19 am »
Don't forget to add a little loose poly fill or fiberglass insulation right behind the woofer.

kwhitman

Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #33 on: 9 Oct 2015, 03:22 am »
I've got some loose poly fill that you pick up at the hobby store. Will that work?   How much should I add?  I assume start towards the back of the cabinet and work towards the woofer.  Should I fill half the cabinet or more.  Do I need to carry the poly up the cabinet behind the tweeter? 

Thanks for the reminder.

Kris






mlundy57

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #34 on: 9 Oct 2015, 04:21 am »
A little more progress.  Finished the No-Rez and crossover installation.  On goes the front baffles!  Now we wait until tomorrow for the glue to dry so I can run the front baffle over the flush trim bit.  Then a little sanding to see if any filling will be necessary.   Then I might have to install the drivers, port, and rear plugs for a test run :D

Here are a few more pics....sorry if it gets a little boring watching glue dry :green:

Watchin glue dry, I'm doing the same thing with some bass cabinets... Well not really, it's drying all by itself while I watch TV  :thumb:

Danny Richie

Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #35 on: 9 Oct 2015, 12:32 pm »
I've got some loose poly fill that you pick up at the hobby store. Will that work?   How much should I add?  I assume start towards the back of the cabinet and work towards the woofer.  Should I fill half the cabinet or more.  Do I need to carry the poly up the cabinet behind the tweeter? 

Thanks for the reminder.

Kris

Just fill the area right behind the woofer very loosely.

Oscillate

Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #36 on: 9 Oct 2015, 04:34 pm »
kwhitman ...what adhesive did you use to attach the VCT tiles
to the wooden insides of the enclosure box? I have been using
a product from Home Depot and the tile sections just keep
falling off the wood! ...grumble, grumble, grumble :(

Hank

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #37 on: 9 Oct 2015, 04:55 pm »
I've bee building speakers for about 18 years and love exotic veneers, my favorite being rosewood.  I have always used contact cement and have never had a failure.  I used Heatlock a couple of times and then the leftover went bad in the jug sitting in my garage, so I tossed it.

gregfisk

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Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #38 on: 9 Oct 2015, 05:31 pm »
kwhitman ...what adhesive did you use to attach the VCT tiles
to the wooden insides of the enclosure box? I have been using
a product from Home Depot and the tile sections just keep
falling off the wood! ...grumble, grumble, grumble :(

Hey Oscillate,

My contractor buddy turned me on to this stuff, it is absolutely amazing! You won't be able to remove those tiles without taking the wood with it.

They also make a 8x if you are really worried about it but this stuff will glue anything to anything and you won't get it apart. You can also buy it in small tubes but not sure that would be enough, the price you see is for a case but of course you can buy them as one.

 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-PL-Premium-10-fl-oz-Polyurethane-

Construction-Adhesive-12-Pack-1390595/202056604?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cBase&gclid=CNT41-H0tcgCFVKPfgodthcHlg&gclsrc=aw.ds

Captainhemo

Re: X-LS build question
« Reply #39 on: 9 Oct 2015, 06:19 pm »
Just fill the area right behind the woofer very loosely.

Seriously, try the Acusti Stuff , about 1.5 oz  in each cabinet. Be sure  to pull it apart and fluff it up so it is not compressed
http://www.parts-express.com/acousta-stuf-polyfill-speaker-cabinet-damping-material-5-lb-bag--260-330