AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Cheeseboy on 31 Jan 2011, 10:17 pm
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We still have some Xebra sedans. We could help you become a wine wine enthusiest if you are so inclined. We are working on bring the Alias to production soon. That car appears to be more your speed.
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We still have some Xebra sedans. We could help you become a wine wine enthusiest if you are so inclined. We are working on bring the Alias to production soon. That car appears to be more your speed.
That Alias looks great. You guys will have to get the price down though for me to bite. That thing is nealy $40,000.
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Perhaps we can work out a trade.
I'll sell you the kit. Just install the battery and the BMS.
The Sonocap upgrade is coming soon.
We are working on lower cost. It is only a 3 seater.
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How can I get in on this action?
I about $hit when I went to the Zap website and quickly read the name of the President. :lol:
http://www.zapworld.com/management
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You might be suprised to find out that more than a few designers of great sounding gear are titans of other industrys. Some extreemly high tech. They get their creative juices flowing by designing gear for music playback. However, making a living selling gear to audiophiles is not as easy as one would think :lol:
We're a thrifty lot :roll: :roll:
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Nice grab. But that is not the same Gary Dodd of Dodd Audio fame. If it was I would have one awesome powered system at my house.
However when it comes to building great cars he is in the same ballbark. Gary is working to secure a manufacturing facility for ZAP here in the US.
Wish him luck in creating some new US jobs.
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Nice grab. But that is not the same Gary Dodd of Dodd Audio fame. If it was I would have one awesome powered system at my house.
However when it comes to building great cars he is in the same ballbark. Gary is working to secure a manufacturing facility for ZAP here in the US.
Wish him luck in creating some new US jobs.
Yes, I know. That's why I'm laughing above after I quickly read the name.
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I like the Red one with the big beefy back tire on it.
And I like kits. :wink:
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I decided to split the topic and give the electric car discussion its own thread.
Carry on... :green:
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WOW! Like the red one with the big rear tire a lot!
If the price comes down and the range goes up slightly above the 100mile mark this is a possibility! :D
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She is a beauty!
The ZAP Alias with the big fat Cooper on the back is built to Nascar spec in terms of roll bar and safety. It is full race. The suspension is harder than Chinese Math. There is power nothin in it. It was that car that got Al Unser Jr. interested in driving the car for us in the Progressive Automotive Insurance X-Prize competition. I think we averaged 110 miles a charge in that competition.
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I decided to split the topic and give the electric car discussion its own thread.
Carry on... :green:
Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
When I go back to (Montreal, Quebec) Canada in the year 2020 to retire,
I hope by then, they will have electric cars with 500 miles autonomy (Cruzing range) with over night charging time from any standard 120V wall outlet and a sticker price of 20,000 USD.
I don't think I am dreaming.
I think this is possible, especially if the arabs keep rising their price of crude oil, that will motivate the american car industry to work harder and come up with something interesting.
The only thing that will motivate the consumers to buy electric cars is high price of oil and low purchase price for those cars.
My only concern is :
What happen when it -30F outside, this happen quite often in Montreal, Canada. I even saw one time -39F.
At those temperatures, all the batteries cannot give all their stored energy.
Guy 13
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Guy, I hope your dream comes true. In 2008 with gas at $4.00 per gallon people got out of thier SUVs. I think someone needs to build the Volkwagon of electric cars. I hope it is ZAP.
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She is a beauty!
The ZAP Alias with the big fat Cooper on the back is built to Nascar spec in terms of roll bar and safety.
What do you mean?
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I think someone needs to build the Volkwagon of electric cars. I hope it is ZAP.
That is exactly true. That is exactly what is needed to change the industry. And let's face it, those really high oil prices are just a matter of time.
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From a national energy standpoint it makes no sense to build electric cars until every car on the road is a hybrid.
Batteries are obviosly in short supply and using so many for one car is not as wise as to spread them out in the fleet as hybrids.
In this very simple model you can see that two hybrids offset the savings from 1 electric car. I think that it is obvious that you could build many more hybrids than just 2 with the batteries from an electric car?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42304)
I guess we have to be honest this isn't about doing the right thing for the world or our country it's about creating a product for a niche market.
The way this is going to play out is simple, the US is the consumer with ability to consume less and we will as the developing world consumes more. Just think about it, what is your sensitivity to consuming 10 gallons less per month? Now think about the guy in the developing world buying a scooter or Tata car for the first time. Those 10 gallons are a life changer. Like so many things for the US we won't do this the smart way we will be forced into change.
Cheers,
Robert
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So what would a national policy look like that really addressed the problem (if there is one). Think about this tax gasoline at $5/gallon and once a year return the money back to the people in the form of a check/tax return. Let the car manufactures make whatever the market demands no CAFE. People who use gas more efficiently will collect and people who don't will pay. This will drive everyone who is sensitive to the price of gasoline (Non Rich) to use less. But still alow the market to produce anything that is demanded (SUV, Sports Cars, whatever).
This model would work for reducing consumption of petro, carbon, whatever.
However, the fat cats in DC can't consume the money in the tax and therefore it will never happen.
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There are a lot of other advantages that most people don't see.
And for a trip that is several hundred miles there are gas and diesel burning vehicles that out perform the hybrids easily. For instance, my old 1990 model Honda CRX got 56 miles to the gallon. As soon as the starting and stopping are over with and you are just traveling down the highway then the hybrid is just burning fuel and lugging around a lot of extra dead weight.
If electrics are used for city driving then it gets a ton of pollution out of the cities and places where we live. It is much better for the people breathing that air that the fuels used to produce the electricity are burned far away from population. Plus electricity produced by burning coal (one of the more expensive means) that is then used to charge batteries is still a far more efficient way to travel verses burning gasoline.
Some of the same people driving electric cars also produce some of their own electricity with wind or solar right at their own house. That of course is the real solution. If each person produced even half of their own electricity needs right where they live then our energy crisis would be non-existing. It also makes more sense to produce it where it is needed rather then the added expense of moving it across the country via power lines.
Even if we are still on the grid, the cars can be charged at night when power demands are low so a large move to electric cars still does not tax the current system.
The advantages of all electric cars are way more than people realize...
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So what would a national policy look like that really addressed the problem (if there is one). Think about this tax gasoline at $5/gallon and once a year return the money back to the people in the form of a check/tax return. Let the car manufactures make whatever the market demands no CAFE. People who use gas more efficiently will collect and people who don't will pay. This will drive everyone who is sensitive to the price of gasoline (Non Rich) to use less. But still alow the market to produce anything that is demanded (SUV, Sports Cars, whatever).
Sounds like a form of socialism to me. You can't punish people into going Green and at the same time start taking money out of the economy.
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In 2008 with gas at $4.00 per gallon people got out of thier SUVs.
My response isn't direct at you, but your statement helps me illustrate something. I own a 1999 GMC Suburban, a 1986 Alfa Romeo Spider, and a 1999 Kawasaki KLR650. Which of these uses the least amount of fuel per person? In 2009 I drove the Suburban about 20,000 miles and averaged 6 passengers (including driver). I averaged about 16 mpg and used 208 gallons per person. The Spider gets 30 mpg. If it was used for 20,000 miles with two people it would average 333 gal per person. The KLR650 gets 48 mpg. However, for 20,000 miles it uses 417 gallons per person. If one saw these three driving down the road they would think the motorcycle is the most energy efficient. However, the Suburban with its six passengers and only 16 mpg is actually twice as efficient. :o
What isn't often taken into consideration is the number of people that occupy a vehicle. Someone that drives a new 45 mpg hybrid car by himself uses more fuel per person than the retired couple that drive everywhere together in their old Buick that averages 24 mpg.
Here is a good question: How many people do I have to average in my Suburban to be as efficient as the motorcycle?
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That was a good post mojave!
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Hi folks
This issue is more complex than it first appears. The energy used to recharge the batteries has to come from somewhere and in North America we use a lot of coal to generate electricity. Coal is the dirtiest fuel in terms of Green house gases. The electric grid also has an overall efficiency of about 30%. Electric cars will be part of the long term solution to reducing our use of fossil fuels.
I just watched a advert from Ford on their new ecoboost engine. It is a 3.5litre twin turbo'd v6 designed for the F150 that can outperform many V8 engines and burn far less fuel. At the end of the advert the Ford exec. comments that he will probably sell 10 times more of these than hybrid cars. The result will likely be that more fuel will be saved by the ecoboost than the hybrids. This is an example of innovation and technology being used to improve efficiency. This is one side of the equation and the other is reducing the total amount of work to be done. This is of course the hard part as it involves changing the way we live.
That said, I am in favour of some kind of carbon tax to encourage people to reduce their energy consumption. Hitting people in the wallet is one of the best ways to make them change behaviour. This needs to be done carefully so it dosen't impact the poor more then the rich. (I know, I'm dreaming!)
Brian
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What do you mean?
The roll cage, seat and safety belt systems were built to meet "NASCAR" crash and rollover specifications. This makes that car heavier than it really needs to be. When designing an electric car weight is your enemy.
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That said, I am in favour of some kind of carbon tax to encourage people to reduce their energy consumption. Hitting people in the wallet is one of the best ways to make them change behaviour.
Making people that can't afford it to begin with to have to pay more for energy doesn't solve anything. Without real solutions to go to it does nothing but cost people more money. The way to entice is with incentive. Solutions have to be in place and options with an attractive price.
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That is exactly true. That is exactly what is needed to change the industry. And let's face it, those really high oil prices are just a matter of time.
When I was a young driver the amenities in an automobile were very minimal. Crank windows, No air conditioning was still an option, manual seats, the aftermarket car stereo business was booming and the DOT had not regulated the price of cars to a very high level.
I hope that the average young family would be willing to make some creature comfort compromises so we can make this "Everymans" elctric car afordable.
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Here is the cold hard truth. We have as a planet about 87 million bbls per day to use. We can argue all day long if this is a peak, plateau, or just a stop on to 100 million. However, we can say with certainty that we are not making the investments needed to move this number in any meaningful way.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42305)
As a planet we will consume until we hit 87 million and then prices will rise very quickly until we displace the least efficient users in market based economies. Non market based economies deal with high prices through shortages.
In reality, when the price spikes we go into recession and destroy more demand than needed and prices collapse. We can either figure out a national policy that will accomplish an orderly improvement in our usage or we can let the market work through a series of recessions and stagnation.
I think we all know that this is beyond our leader’s capabilities to help solve through smart policy and in the end we will undulate between feast and famine.
Very Cheery thoughts,,, I know
Robert
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Mojave,
You make a good point.
The opportunity for reduction in pollution and dependancy on oil is all of those people on the road in a big gas guzzler with just one person commuting to work.
The average use per day in America for an automobile is 25 miles. The biggest bang for the buck is the 100% electric car for around town use.
We just began to build a 100% electric SUV taxi that seats 5 to replace the government controlled gas taxi business in major Chinese cities like Hong Kong and Shanghai.
We just built a 100% electric US Postal Service Van for thier evaluation. It is currently being used on an everyday basis by them for testing. These postal trucks don't drive very far on an everyday basis.
It is the short trip vehicles that will jump start the market and the technology leaps in electric cars and trucks.
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Robert,
When you look at your graph you see the relationhip between the price of oil and use.
Steve
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Just an FYI of interest for the day.
I am in Texas. We have just been hit with a hard winter storm just like most of the rest of the country. Heavy snow fall for us is unusual, but we got some.
Now we use a lot of natural gas here in Texas so our heating bills are pretty low. And when it gets really cold we don't hit the grid for heating like many states do.
However, today we are having controlled rolling Black outs to keep from overloading the grid. So we will loose power for 15 to 40 minutes at a time today and possibly tomorrow off and on throughout the day.
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Making people that can't afford it to begin with to have to pay more for energy doesn't solve anything. Without real solutions to go to it does nothing but cost people more money. The way to entice is with incentive. Solutions have to be in place and options with an attractive price.
As gas prices increase the market for more efficient automobiles will follow. The incentives need to be in research and development here in the US in battery technology "Nano Lithium" and lightweight crash systems. Or to be political as Obama calls them "Investments".
When gas prices hit above $4.00 a gallon the economy crashed for the automotive market. Car makers were still pushing bigger is better and safer modes of transportation when this happened. Car manufacturers are rushing to meet the pent up demand for more fuel efficient cars. I hope big oil doesn't pull the trigger on thier next round of profiteering before the market is ready.
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The roll cage, seat and safety belt systems were built to meet "NASCAR" crash and rollover specifications. This makes that car heavier than it really needs to be. When designing an electric car weight is your enemy.
:scratch: I highly doubt that. What "spec" is that?
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Just an FYI of interest for the day.
I am in Texas. We have just been hit with a hard winter storm just like most of the rest of the country. Heavy snow fall for us is unusual, but we got some.
Now we use a lot of natural gas here in Texas so our heating bills are pretty low. And when it gets really cold we don't hit the grid for heating like many states do.
However, today we are having controlled rolling Black outs to keep from overloading the grid. So we will loose power for 15 to 40 minutes at a time today and possibly tomorrow off and on throughout the day.
Texan are the most independent thinkers here in the US. I think the cities counsels in your neighborhood will be challenged the most for personal wind tubine systems to sell back electricity.
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:scratch: I highly doubt that. What "spec" is that?
Not the car itself but the cage for driver protection only. Sorry to use the word spec. You are likely to be correct. There may not be a spec. You must know alot more than I. May I say a NASCARlike drivers cage?
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Not the car itself but the cage for driver protection only. Sorry to use the word spec. You are likely to be correct. There may not be a spec. You must know alot more than I. May I say a NASCARlike drivers cage?
I know the car isn't the same...I see 'em everyday. The only "spec" are rules. DOT crash tests are way different then any race organization (FIA, NASCAR, SCCA etc) not to say better but different.
What you have is a NASCAR style cage. Every car has a roll cage (safety zone)...you just can't see them on the average road car.
This is what a NASCAR Cup chassis looks like.
(http://)
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There is no doubt that you know race cars. The Alias that we entered into the XPrize competition has an extensive driver protection cage, constructed of metal tubing in it that was engineered by one of our design team that has extensive race engineering experience. The cage does not extend past the gas pedal like the car shown in your picture. It added a significant amount of additional weight to the vehicle. There is nothing DOT about it.
The Alias body and frame was designed by Lotus Engineering. It is a hyperlight type of design. The cage was an add on for the purpose of driver protection. We wanted Al Unser Jr. to feel at home in the car.
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HI,
In recent years I have seen almost daily on TV news and web car sites a ceaseless rain of pay merchandising and press releases forcing people to accept these electric cars.
The idea that they show is that these cars are perfect, and that do not pollute and do not use gasoline means money in pocket of the driver.
But nobody ever said how much(money) it costs to recharge the huge battery of these cars and also how many recharges these batteries can take before going to the waste bin pollute too.
Regards, Gustavo
> Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a cat or dog from the street. On the streets pets live only two years average.
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But nobody ever said how much(money) it costs to recharge the huge battery of these cars and also how many recharges these batteries can take before going to the waste bin pollute too.
Actually they have...you never saw the trace of the battery manufacturing of the Prius batteries? It's amazing how much they pollute the earth before even using them.
Certainly charging has issues too. Not only from pollution but also the lack of infrastructure. Just imagine every big city needing charging stations in every spot or fast (5min) charger / batteries.
This is why I continue to ask my question and get this look :o
Q:
If we have synthetic oil, why can't we have synthetic gasoline?
A:
:o
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The gasoline in my country is one of the most expensive in the world, a litre costs 1.50 US dollar, 53% of that price is taxes.
Electricity are the fifth most expensive in the world here, 1 kW costs 0.30 US dollar.
Seems both electric and gas cars fuel are expensive.
Regards, Gustavo
> Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a cat or dog from the street. On the streets pets live only two years average.
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Oil isnt just used to produce fuels.....almost everything from plastics to coffee creamers.
You would be amazed at what is made from by products.
I think that climate would be a hugh factor at the success of electric vehicles....perhaps more of a seasonal vehicle for a lot of people.
I am sitting in the middle of the oils sands in Northern Alberta as I type this. You just have to look around
and take stock of the players and the amount of dollars invested to see that there is no worries on the
part of producers that electrics are taking over anytime soon.
Something else to consider....not all crude is the same....some is much easier and more pollution friendly
to convert. The oil from overseas is a much different product than what is produced here.
With the economy the way it is today...it might make more sense to get people back to work in large numbers using technology that can produce thousands of jobs right now, not in the future.
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Hoping that hybrids are not too far off topic, there's this new VW. Looks good, too!
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/01/vw-xl1-concept-car/
http://tinyurl.com/6z6ypfy
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Making people that can't afford it to begin with to have to pay more for energy doesn't solve anything. Without real solutions to go to it does nothing but cost people more money. The way to entice is with incentive. Solutions have to be in place and options with an attractive price.
I agree that incentives are a good way to influence a portion of the public. I took advantage of incentives in 2008 to install a solar hot water system on my house. The problem with incentives is that they don't reach most people. As far as electric cars go, the prices are so high that even with incentives they are out of reach for most people.
This may change, but I don't think it will be any time soon, as we need a modernization of the electric grid to deal with the power demands of a wide spread switch to electric vehicles.
I believe that global warming, oil prices and the shift away from fossil fuels is going to be a major pre occupation for all of us in the next 20yrs.
I don't want this to be taken as a political statement but Al Gore's book "Our Choice" is a good read for anyone looking for a possible solution to this stuff. I am Canadian and don't have a horse or Donkey or Elephant in your political races.
Brian
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Synthetic diesel is easy to make. You take any fuel wood / cow dung / natural gas coal / etc and heat it in an oxygen free environment. This makes Syngas which can be converted into liquid fuels. We have know how to do this since WWII. The only projects that it makes sense is in areas of stranded natural gas. However, with the developing LNG market that may be in question. The reason is EROI it doesn't make sense to produce fuel using these methods when you still have the old cheap stuff available
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42314)
As for the big oil companies profiteering,,, give me a break. People talk about these companies without looking at the size of their balance sheets. They average 6-7% over time and they have to be big to survive the price volitility. How comfortable would you be to invest billions of dollars for the next bbl at a $90 cost when prices fell to $30 2 years ago. It takes big BALLS.
This brings me back to our future
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42315)
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I believe that global warming, oil prices and the shift away from fossil fuels is going to be a major pre occupation for all of us in the next 20yrs.
I believe that we will one day look back at the whole global warming nonsense as a bigger joke than the Y2K bug. So far I have seen no credible evidence of such a thing beyond it being a political tool. In fact last year and this year has been the hardest winters and the mildest summers that I can remember for many years.
I don't want this to be taken as a political statement but Al Gore's book "Our Choice" is a good read for anyone looking for a possible solution to this stuff.
I believe that we have to be responsible for what the good Lord has given us, but don't put much faith in anything said by Al Gore.
This thread is already tip towing on political material. Let's be careful with all of that and get back to cool stuff like electric cars.
And Russell, that VW looks killer.
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This thing is little more than a stylish golf cart, but might be just right for cruising around town.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Kandi-Coco-Electric-Car-Streel-Legal-/280621949788?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item41565f235c
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I was in China for nearly a month in December. While there I visited the Forbidden City in Beijing. The Forbidden City is the world's largest castle complex and covers 180 acres. The entire area is covered in stone block for either the buildings or the courtyards or the walls. We were told that the temperature in the Forbidden City averaged 3-4 deg Celcius (about 6 deg F) warmer than the surrounding area until Bejing expanded around it. This makes me wonder how much temp change recorded globally is due to urbanization in areas where the temps are actually recorded.
I didn't see any electric cars in China, but there were millions and millions of electric mopeds and trikes. I almost got hit several times because you can't hear them coming and they all drive on the sidewalk.
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So far I have seen no credible evidence of such a thing beyond it being a political tool. In fact last year and this year has been the hardest winters and the mildest summers that I can remember for many years.
Actually your point tends to support global warming. "Global warming" refers to the average temperature for the globe not necessarily a warmer temperature at any particular location. The biggest prediction of global warming is climate change - that is that historical weather patterns will shift - which is what you just described - unusually cold winters for your location and unusually mild summers.
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Actually your point tends to support global warming. "Global warming" refers to the average temperature for the globe not necessarily a warmer temperature at any particular location. The biggest prediction of global warming is climate change - that is that historical weather patterns will shift - which is what you just described - unusually cold winters for your location and unusually mild summers.
Time will tell all, but a few degrees cooler across the board won't bother me at all.
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Slightly OT but, ....
I was listening to a guy on the radio who said the most realistic option for future energy is Alcohol. He said that right now, it's very easy to just go after the easy stuff (corn into Ethanol), but with improving technology, we will be able to use the wild grass that grows in the Plains. It doesn't take too much to convert existing combustion engines from gasoline to alcohol. Could be done very cheaply (certainly cheaper than $4/gallon - he said probably in the $2.50/gal range) It made sense when he explained it.
Anybody else heard this approach?
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I've decided to stay out of this thread. Have fun guys :thumb:
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Slightly OT but, ....
I was listening to a guy on the radio who said the most realistic option for future energy is Alcohol. He said that right now, it's very easy to just go after the easy stuff (corn into Ethanol), but with improving technology, we will be able to use the wild grass that grows in the Plains. It doesn't take too much to convert existing combustion engines from gasoline to alcohol. Could be done very cheaply (certainly cheaper than $4/gallon - he said probably in the $2.50/gal range) It made sense when he explained it.
Anybody else heard this approach?
I can't remember the exact values but I think the air fuel mixture running gasoline is about 13.4 to 14 to one. For alcohol it is about half of that. Us old drag racers know that you can make more power with alcohol but you use twice as much of it.
So even if you could buy the alcohol for $2.50 a gallon, you'll need twice as much of it to go the same distance as running gasoline.
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Slightly OT but, ....
I was listening to a guy on the radio who said the most realistic option for future energy is Alcohol. He said that right now, it's very easy to just go after the easy stuff (corn into Ethanol), but with improving technology, we will be able to use the wild grass that grows in the Plains. It doesn't take too much to convert existing combustion engines from gasoline to alcohol. Could be done very cheaply (certainly cheaper than $4/gallon - he said probably in the $2.50/gal range) It made sense when he explained it.
Anybody else heard this approach?
Here is the problem with ethanol
"Biofuels have to contend with oil, which Mother Nature already processed over millions of years with heat and pressure to produce an energy-dense, transportable mixture. With biofuels humans must grow and transport the biomass (which is far less energy dense than oil), and then add heat and pressure to convert the biomass into fuels. Thus, it shouldn’t be a surprise that biofuels tend to be more expensive than oil."
http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2010/08/21/whats-really-holding-cellulosic-biofuels-back/
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I think most people are completely lost in the scale of world energy consumption. The replacement of every unit of energy we consume is more difficult to obtain. It just gets worse until you get some new technology to take advantage of a denser energy source.
Look at this chart. Now think about everything that goes into the collection of these resources. It is massive. Replacing this system is not going to be easy.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42323)
Now that car like the VW gives hope because we can go so much further on what is still available. That should give s enough time to get to the next big thing. Which probably is not less dense green energy ... Atlest is history is any guide :thumb:
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Ok, where do I get a Mr. Fusion to charge my electric car?
Hopefully that will happen to help with the entire energy issue. It has been a long time coming and still looks far off unfortunatly.
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Forgive my ignorance on the matter, but...
What makes ethanol different from alcohol?
He was speaking of alcohol. He was talking about the history of bootlegging and the stills out in the woods to show how cheap and easily it could be produced. I admit I missed much of the program, but it sounded easy and obvious. I heard follow up and believe one of the true Hollywood "left wingers" (Ed Begley?) had converted his Prius so that it ran on grain alcohol in about 10 minutes with fairly standard tools.
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Ethanol is alcohol.
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Sounds like a form of socialism to me. You can't punish people into going Green and at the same time start taking money out of the economy.
I think this policy was suggested by Mankiw, one of Pres. Reagan's economic advisers.
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Where is the flux capacitor when you need it?
I think we are hearing all kinds of solutions and if we allow each to succeed we might see less pollution and lower cost transportation.
We all might be driving a hybrid. It runs on gas, natural gas, ethanol and batteries. Perhaps if you spend too much time at the pub you can vacate in the tank. I think thats alcohol?
By the way studies show that electric cars in thier current state cost about 3 cents a mile to operate.
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This thing is little more than a stylish golf cart, but might be just right for cruising around town.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Kandi-Coco-Electric-Car-Streel-Legal-/280621949788?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item41565f235c
Those Coco's are cute as all hell. There is a dealer for those in here in town. I always wanted to drive one. The electric drive experience is very different. We also have a miniture electric formula 1 car track. Those haul ass. The torque is awesome.
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I like the idea of an electric car but I won't be driving one until they become competitively priced. Also, until Mr fusion is available, wouldn't it be great to add more nuclear power to the grid?! It's much more efficient than Wind/solar (especially when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining). If green is your thing, it is difficult to be more green than nuclear. Vitrification of nuclear waste makes it a low risk (turning waste into a solid glass form).
Until Five years ago I thought Ethanol was a great idea...creating our own fuel would create jobs for farmers and lessen our dependency on foreign oil. Then, I learned of a study by professors at Cornell and UC-Berkeley that changed my thinking. Of the bio-fuel feedstock they studied, corn was among the most efficient but even corn required 29% more fossil fuel energy input to create than the corn ethanol can output. Today I think Ethanol is an idiotic idea.
Until Mr Fusion and my Nuke plants are built I think we should RESPONSIBLY use all the resources we are blessed with...wind, solar, hydro, coal, oil, nat gas, uranium,etc. Just my opinion. Ok, I'll get off my soap-box now.
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Charts, graphs, percentages, statistics and numbers should all have links to sources. If not, then they really don't mean much. Please back claims with support.
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I've decided to stay out of this thread. Have fun guys :thumb:
Charts, graphs, percentages, statistics and numbers should all have links to sources. If not, then they really don't mean much. Please back claims with support.
Hmmm. I sense someone who has a weakness for debate! :D
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Hmmm. I sense someone who has a weakness for debate! :D
Ha, you got me :lol:
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I believe that we will one day look back at the whole global warming nonsense as a bigger joke than the Y2K bug. So far I have seen no credible evidence of such a thing beyond it being a political tool. In fact last year and this year has been the hardest winters and the mildest summers that I can remember for many years.
Dare I say " flat earthers and naysayers"? :green: Have you put in much time looking for evidence? It always amazes me when people just flippantly reject the work of literally thousand of scientists. Their evidence: it's cool outside. "Global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the 20th century". I am not sure you could come to that conclusion with casual observation.
"The scientific consensus is that anthropogenic global warming is occurring." Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming) That is a lot of scientists who agree...
Hey they could be wrong but I would bet that if they are it is by a matter of degree and not kind.
I am willing to keep an open mind on speaker cable but not global warming...
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Dare I say " flat earthers and naysayers"?
That's funny! I love that response.
I am willing to keep an open mind on speaker cable but not global warming...
I am willing to keep an open mind to both, but so called scientist that falsified information about the whole thing has me pretty put off. And there are credible scientist that feel that solar flares are making a larger contribution to changing climate than we are. To many of the experts are split or disagree. So time will tell who was right. In the mean time we need to be responsible but not make rash decisions based on the most popular belief that the wind blew in at the moment.
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Yes, we have limited petroleum resources (and ability to extract them). With China, India, and the 3rd world’s increasing demand for petroleum there is obvious case of demand exceeding supply coming upon us. And wake up, we have some of cheapest energy costs in the world. How long do you expect that to last in this global economy?
Yes, Virginia there is a global warming, decades of measurements from all over the world has confirmed it. Whether its man made or not really doesn’t matter, so don’t take it personally, just accept it and deal with it.
The overall environmental impact, cradle to grave, of electrics or hybrid electrics is higher than an efficient/comparable petroleum or alcohol fueled car. (My Toyota Corrolla gets 36 mpg, costs thousands less than a Prius, and won’t need $5,000 worth of new batteries every 125,000 miles). Battery production and disposal is a very nasty environmentally hazardous business.
Batteries must become cheaper, lighter, much easier on the environment, quicker to charge, and have longer usable lives before electric or electric hybrid vehicles make sense.
Mass transit for urban areas must be promoted that can easily be supplemented by iGO or Zip cars (monthly leasing of limited use shared cars). How does a monthly transit pass plus $15 per month (includes everything) for 5 hours of a car sound?
The far better long term solution is fuel cells (another energy storage like batteries, not a fuel burning mechanism). Fuel cells refill quickly, don’t weigh much, and don’t pollute excessively to create. This is where R & D should be going (to reduce up front cost and extend their useful life). Look at the Honda Clarity.
The same fuel cell technology could be used at home to produce hydrogen during non-peak hours and then stored for use in vehicles or for domestic needs. Hydrogen tanks are no more dangerous than gasoline or propane tanks. Solar powered hydrogen stations (that look like a big Coke machine) are already in service in Norway.
Batteries (or fuel cells) are charged from large power plants, most of which burn coal (still available in great quantities). Atmospheric emissions from coal plants are actually quite low as these big, fixed, steady operating machines, thanks to the EPA now burn very cleanly.
I’ve worked on and in nuclear power plants and am an advocate, but in the current domestic political setting it would take decades to open a new one, and of course there is always the concern for how to dispose of the waste.
But the U.S. electrical infrastructure is antiquated and overloaded. Adding more large energy generating nodes (where cooling and rail services, let alone the grid to handle it) to address our increasing demand or even to replace existing sources won’t be easy to do.
Natural gas extraction, a new technology just now coming on board, will provide over 100 years of energy domestic demand from reserves right here in the U.S. Smaller natural gas turbine plants could be more easily located, cheaper to build, with almost negligible environmental impact.
So the smartest short term move would be to convert our coal/diesel/gasoline economy to natural gas for power plants and vehicles. (We had a propane truck growing up, which was more powerful than gas, but we kids had to pump it into the tank.)
It’s always best to produce electricity close to point of use and to use “free” energy (solar, wind, wave/current, and geothermal). With on-site storage and natural gas fired peaking plants a more efficient/distributed solution will soon be available.
Geothermal in its many variations can improve heating/cooling efficiencies in buildings by up to 20 fold and by doing so reduce overall electrical demand. With solar/wind sourcing and on-site hydrogen storage, most households (houses and cars) could be energy self-sufficient.
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Watch Gasland and get back to me.
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Good post JLM.
I am a little iffy on fuel cells working out though. For one, a solar Hydrogen generating station the size of a small convenience store only produces enough Hydrogen (from Water) for a single car being used all week for daily driving. Plus the fuel cells are super expensive to make right now.
I completely agree though with all of this...
Natural gas extraction, a new technology just now coming on board, will provide over 100 years of energy domestic demand from reserves right here in the U.S. Smaller natural gas turbine plants could be more easily located, cheaper to build, with almost negligible environmental impact.
So the smartest short term move would be to convert our coal/diesel/gasoline economy to natural gas for power plants and vehicles. (We had a propane truck growing up, which was more powerful than gas, but we kids had to pump it into the tank.)
It’s always best to produce electricity close to point of use and to use “free” energy (solar, wind, wave/current, and geothermal). With on-site storage and natural gas fired peaking plants a more efficient/distributed solution will soon be available.
Geothermal in its many variations can improve heating/cooling efficiencies in buildings by up to 20 fold and by doing so reduce overall electrical demand. With solar/wind sourcing and on-site hydrogen storage, most households (houses and cars) could be energy self-sufficient.
Geothermal is the most overlooked. There is enough heat under Yellow Stone National Park to power the whole US for 100's of years.
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Well, distributing the energy from Jellystone would be an issue. The current infrastructure couldn't handle it.
But, if we start extracting heat energy from the earth, will there be any unintended consequences? I can see it now - Mankind is responsible for global cooling! Weather patterns changing! Manhattan flooded! The entire east coast buried under massive snow! No wait... that was just a dumb movie, it can't really happen!
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Watch Gasland and get back to me.
That was an eyeopening documentary on the new way that Natural Gas is harvested, Exempt from EPA oversite. It is a very controversial process, Fracking.
People don't even see these sites. Now that I know what they look like you can see them when you fly across the country and drive outside of the area.
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I agree with JLM. It is a combination of energy souces that will fuel our needs.
While labor is cheap in China today they will find they want "Money for Nuthin and Chicks for free" and a better standard of living. When a billion Chinese start thier cars in the morning look west for the cloud coming your way.
The cost of energy will be going up.
Would you drive an electric auto that was reasonably priced? If it cost you 3 Cents a mile to operate?
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Geothermal is the most overlooked. There is enough heat under Yellow Stone National Park to power the whole US for 100's of years.
I have thought for decades now that the solution lies in advanced geothermal - advanced in the sense that the drilling technology is developed to the point that we can get down to very deep (by current standards) depths and tap into the heat of the earth's massive molten core. I really don't think our demands would make a significant difference to such a thermal mass.
If the drilling technology were appropriate, it would be cost effective for every populous region to have its own power plant, regardless of proximity to geothermal hot spots, such as Yellowstone, thus eliminating many long distance transmission challenges. One problem that would emerge, since the assumed common denominator would be electricity, is that of how short term storage of power is managed.
The fact that this would contribute to the autonomy of various challenged regions of the world who now depend critically on outside sources for fundamental energy needs would make this, if it became feasible, a political hot potato due to the power the oil lobby now wields.
As far as I know, Japan is the only country developing ultra-deep drilling technology, although I think many more might be and keeping quiet about it - or they should be. Japan has a history of energy awareness since they realized how critically dependent they were on outside sources for oil.
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Hey Russell,
Here in Sonoma we have two companies that are using geothermal to produce power and interestingly enough dispose of sewage. Here in Santa Rosa we send them treated sewage via a pipeline and they send us electricity.
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....
Geothermal is the most overlooked. There is enough heat under Yellow Stone National Park to power the whole US for 100's of years.
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Indeed... Actually, there is enough heat under the Yellowstone Caldera to wipe out human civilization. Yellowstone sits atop a supervolcano. Luckily, its been about 640,000 years since it last blew, the third time in the last 2.4 million years.
The stats are with us, but when she blows, it could be game over for those still residing on Earth.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/08/yellowstone/achenbach-text
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I think I saw that movie. It was The Day after Tommorrow, Y2K or 2012 I can't remember which.
I think Steam Engines could make a comeback.
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Shallow geothermal is available almost anywhere and uses the thermal mass of the ground, with little net heat gain or loss. The only energy input is pumping. There are four kinds:
1. Non-contact pass thru (if you have a river nearby)
2. Non-contact recirculating (horizontal or vertical) using the Earth or a pond as a radiator
3. ATES (uses one side of an aquifier for heat and other side for cooling)
4. BTES (similar to non-contact recirculating, but uses the Earth as a thermal battery
Deep geothermal uses the heat of nearby magma which obviously limits where it can be obtained. In these cases a power plant is built so that electricity can be produced locally.
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Cheeseboy,
Is 3 cents per mile the average life cycle cost?
I'd rather pay 4 cents per mile and have 4 wheels (I've seen the Top Gear episodes of the 3 wheeled Robin tipping over.) :roll:
But up here in the great white north, and driving 40,000 miles per year (wifey does another 30,000 miles per year), I'd need a minimum 100 - 200 mile range.
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Russell, I completely agree. Drill deep enough and you'll have plenty of heat. Pump water down the hole and get steam out the other end.
Indeed... Actually, there is enough heat under the Yellowstone Caldera to wipe out human civilization.
That could well be true.
Yellowstone sits atop a supervolcano. Luckily, its been about 640,000 years since it last blew, the third time in the last 2.4 million years.
I am personally not one to believe that the earth is anywhere near that old. That to me is too much speculation and takes too much of a blind leap of faith to believe.
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(I've seen the Top Gear episodes of the 3 wheeled Robin tipping over.)
Jeremy was hilarious in that episode. :thumb:
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The earth is at least one thousand times older than 2.4 million years.
The great leap of faith is to tell thousands and thousands of scientists, studying dozens of different disciplines, at practically every one of the universities on the planet, that you have more evidence than they do for the age of the earth.
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The earth is at least one thousand times older than 2.4 million years.
The great leap of faith is to tell thousands and thousands of scientists, studying dozens of different disciplines, at practically every one of the universities on the planet, that you have more evidence than they do for the age of the earth.
To each his own. My evidence comes from the one that created us all, the heavens and the earth. I live in "one nation under (him)". All of my currency says that it is "in (him) that we trust".... Maybe you've heard of him. I can't think of a greater authority. I'll stick with him.
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......
I am personally not one to believe that the earth is anywhere near that old. That to me is too much speculation and takes too much of a blind leap of faith to believe.
Different leaps for different peeps. 8)
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Religion? Really? :duh:
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Different leaps for different peeps. 8)
Well said. While recently in Philly, my brother's electric heating plant couldn't warm the house above 60 degrees. Long story short, there was no problem with the system. There is no natural gas system in his neighborhood. One of the options discussed was a geo-thermal system. Drilling done to the water table, said to be 65 degrees, then pumping that heat mass up to the house and either heating or cooling it at that point. System upgrade was estimated to be $30K. My brother balked considerably until I pointed out that his car cost more.
Len
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I'd rather pay 4 cents per mile and have 4 wheels (I've seen the Top Gear episodes of the 3 wheeled Robin tipping over.) :roll:
But up here in the great white north, and driving 40,000 miles per year (wifey does another 30,000 miles per year), I'd need a minimum 100 - 200 mile range.
At the Xprize a three wheel competitor went throgh the lane change and almost went over. I have to find the youtube for that. The Alias range is about 110 miles. It doesn't tip over.
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Many ZAP videos here....Link... (http://www.youtube.com/user/ZAPalias?feature=mhum)
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We built an EPA 5 star house about 5 years ago (builder got $20,000, I got all the bills including the cost to certify). Thought long and hard about going with a horizontal non-contact geothermal system. But the upcharge was $10,000 (which I could have put into more insulation/etc. and then have less need for the system - plug the hole, then find a more efficient way to fill it). But my real gripe was that for the system to have the lowest life cycle cost the length of underground loop would be minimized. So, as Len said, the system only would work down to 20 degrees F. After that an electric grid would kick in and you'd be heating with the least efficient method available as conditions get their worst. That urked me to no end.
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Is a 3 wheel design really necessary to conserve energy/upfront cost? One pothole or snow bank and you'd be done. I recall that at Oldsmobile's 100th anniversary one of their oldest, curved dash, models hit a pothole the day before the big parade and flipped on it's nose and broke the "sacred" curved dash. Fortunately Olds still had a carpenter's shop (mostly to crate special tools) and they somehow fixed it overnight. Ironic isn't it, that after 100 years of "progress" the roads are in worst shape?
Frankly this vehicle looks more like an enclosed golf cart than a car, except golf carts have 4 wheels. Maybe a good idea for retirees in Florida. BTW my Toyota dealership had some electrics for sale a couple of years ago, they looked like very small cars (like I'd imagine you might find in Toyko) and cost roughly $20,000. They were licensable, but we don't have enough of an urban setting here for them to make sense.
My 1978 Rabbit weighed 1700 pounds (no power doors/windows, A/C, automatic transmission, air bags, etc.). Now the Mazda 2 is being praised for coming in at 2200 pounds. :scratch: Maybe we need to go backwards. Lighter car needs a smaller/lighter engine, which allows for a lighter/smaller car that could use a smaller/lighter engine, etc., etc. Nowadays typical small cars weigh over 3000 pounds and need a 1.8L for an automatic to get a good combination of mileage and performance (or a 1.5L for a manual transmission).
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That to me is too much speculation and takes too much of a blind leap of faith to believe.
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My evidence comes from the one that created us all, the heavens and the earth. I live in "one nation under (him)". All of my currency says that it is "in (him) that we trust".... Maybe you've heard of him. I can't think of a greater authority. I'll stick with him.
Anyone else see issues with this? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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sts9fan,
I think it is safe to say that there are those that believe in evolution and those that believe in creation. I have no issue with the mention of the existence of either in regards to our Earth, it resources and the conservation there of as part of a shared interest in audio, electric cars, etc. A debated discussion between the two isn't going to fly so let's not go there.
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Is a 3 wheel design really necessary to conserve energy/upfront cost?
The three wheel design is done to save money on DOT approvals. 4 wheel certification is very expensive. Trust me the Alias is not a golf cart.
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We built an EPA 5 star house about 5 years ago (builder got $20,000, I got all the bills including the cost to certify). Thought long and hard about going with a horizontal non-contact geothermal system. But the upcharge was $10,000 (which I could have put into more insulation/etc. and then have less need for the system - plug the hole, then find a more efficient way to fill it). But my real gripe was that for the system to have the lowest life cycle cost the length of underground loop would be minimized. So, as Len said, the system only would work down to 20 degrees F. After that an electric grid would kick in and you'd be heating with the least efficient method available as conditions get their worst. That urked me to no end.
My experience with geothermal heating/cooling is very different. I have a ground source heat pump with a closed loop of about 500 feet of tubing six feet down. Mine is a three-stage system. In stage one, the compressor runs at 60% capacity; in stage two it's at 100% capacity. Stage three is where the 10KW electric element kicks in. Since it was installed about 7 years ago we've had several instances of temperatures at about -5 degrees F, and once it went down to -10. (This is near Pittsburgh.) Never has it gotten to stage 3, and it went to stage two no more than a dozen times, and each time only for brief periods (Usually cycling between stages one and two).
My unit is a brand called Water Furnace made by Northern Leader (which is a Canadian company, I think).
I chose to go with the geothermal system at a time when my gas furnace and whole house air conditioner had to be replaced. The geo system cost only about $5000 more than a new gas furnace and traditional AC system would have. My heating/cooling annual bill is now about $1000 less than it was, so I passed the break-even cost point a couple of years ago, and now I'm reaping the reward. Of course there's also the factor that it's "green."
By the way, I looked at three companies before the one I chose to go with. One was rejected because under close questioning he showed considerable ignorance about how the system works. The other was rejected because his price was almost double the one I went with. You have to do the research.
Using the system is very convenient. I set maximum and minimum temperatures, and the system automatically either does nothing or produces heating or cooling as necessary.
I would urge anyone needing to replace a traditional HVAC to look very hard at a ground-based geothermal heat pump system.
Oh yes: I forgot to mention that when the system is heating or cooling there is some excess waste heat that it has to throw out. This goes to help the heating of water in the water heater.
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To each his own. My evidence comes from the one that created us all, the heavens and the earth. I live in "one nation under (him)". All of my currency says that it is "in (him) that we trust".... Maybe you've heard of him. I can't think of a greater authority. I'll stick with him.
By now there are mountains of evidence that He arranged for the earth to come together at about 4.5 billion years ago, and the universe about 13.3 billion years ago.
If you can tell me where in the Bible you find that He says otherwise I'd like to have the reference.
(My question is not frivolous. Although my faith does not agree with yours, I respect your beliefs. I think that anyone who ridicules any person's deeply held beliefs is an intellectual bully and an ass.)
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If you can tell me...
PM sent.
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Water Furnace is actually here in Ft. Wayne IN. Lots of them in the area and they do a great job in our climate.
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Geezer & TomS, I'm going to pass the Water Furnace info onto my brother. Thanks.
On the electric car front, I looked at a couple of 2008 Zap Xebra pickups on Monday. They are new/unused & the asking price is $6,500. I did a little online research & here is some of what I found. The first models in 2006 had fiberglass bodies and the vehicles had a lot of inherent problems. In 2008, they came out with an upgraded version which included a metal body but there were still a few problems. Zap discontinued the Xebra line. My guess is that Zap is liquidating old inventory now. While researching I ran into a number of recommended mods that included: adding an additional battery, beefing up the suspension for the front wheel & adding gauges that would give battery life info, better odometer readings etc. etc. Some of the more interesting information to me concerned how to use the batteries. One example involved a recommended break-in process for new batteries. Another informed that if the vehicle sat for a few days the battery charge was less than optimal. Generally speaking all this new info tended to turn me off to the purchase idea but given a few days I'm thinking about it again. One of the things I realized is that there needs to be a better education process that includes the pros & cons in order to promote these newer/non-mainstream technologies, geo-thermal and electric cars.
Len
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We have a WaterFurnace and love it! We have vertical wells instead of the horizontal loop. Water temp is around 55 degrees all the time.
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Hal :thumb: I think I misheard my brother concerning the ground water temperature after reading more. If anyone is interested here's a brief summary of: geothermal heat pumps (http://www.toolbase.org/Technology-Inventory/HVAC/geothermal-heat-pumps).
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One of the things I realized is that there needs to be a better education process that includes the pros & cons in order to promote these newer/non-mainstream technologies, geo-thermal and electric cars.
Did you drive the truck? We sold alot of them. I think you know you have a successful product when it is easy to find mods and upgrades to make it better. The simplicity of the design is its strength. There are some still here in Santa Rosa that we lease to UPS every year for Christmas short trip deliveries. The perfect application for an electric vehicle.
Batteries are fickle forms of energy storage in long multi battery strings.
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Did you drive the truck? We sold alot of them. I think you know you have a successful product when it is easy to find mods and upgrades to make it better. The simplicity of the design is its strength. There are some still here in Santa Rosa that we lease to UPS every year for Christmas short trip deliveries. The perfect application for an electric vehicle.
Batteries are fickle forms of energy storage in long multi battery strings.
No, I haven't driven one yet.
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Len,
The line is discontinued. If you have any tech questions and concerns pass them on to me and I'll be happy to get you some answers from the service department. My favorite ZAP product is the Xebra Truck. I borrow the shop truck for around the house projects all the time.