[satfrat]

I don't feel comfortable talking about another loudspeaker in Jim's Circle but seeing how it seems to fill this thread and I've actually heard both the HT-3 and Vandy's 5A, I feel the need to express my opinion. WhenI first heard the HT-3, I was blown away. Especially blown away on how seemless the Salk center channel was with the HT-3. It's the 1st and only time I've ever experienced that type of seemlessness from a horizonal center channel. I found the HT-3's to be very dynamic and can easliy fill the room with clear detailed music depending how much power you have available. I loved my time with them.

But I like the Vandy 5A's better even tho I wasn't able to see what they'd do with some power behind them. I found them to be the perfect balance of dynamic, yet a controlled refinement that simply drew me into the music. Musicality seems to ooze from the 5A's with a type of dynamics that doesn't overpower a person. To date they are the best loudspeaker I've heard that complements what I like in a loudspeaker. But then again,my library of loudspeakers is mighty thin.  Still, I have heard these 2 loudspeakers and these are my thoughts, FWIW. 

Cheers,
Robin

Robin,

One of the great things about the Salk Circle is the tolerance of mentioning other vendors and describing the ways in which competing products might be better or equal.



Jim has truly established a safe haven here and it benefits all of us.   

If we time your visit to my place properly, you will get to hear some high powered tubes (Atma-Sphere MA-1's) and ss (latest Spectron amp) on the 5A's, as well as hear the SongTowers drive the L/C/R channels of my HT.

George

I will leave that in your capable hands George. I've been unemployed for 14 months now w/o much prospect for a job around here so my schedule is pretty much open. aa

Oh yeah, see ya saturday @ Boston High End.

Cheers,
Robin

[Big Red Machine]

Big thing is we all trust Jim and Dennis to make it be-yoot-a-full.  Now get back to work.  There are 24 hours in a day dang it!

[fsimms]

Here are a few areas I would like to see improved in an HT4 model:

1.  better visceral impact/dynamics - while the HT3 are very good, they aren't SOTA.  This isn't an issue of just going deeper, it is about weight and impact (especially in the mid-bass).

2.  more warmth and spaciousness in the mid-range.  The HT3's can sound a little closed in and a little dry.

3.  a little more air and depth in the treble.  The ribbon is great, but cymbals, triangles, etc...can float in the air more with some other designs.

4.  bigger image size in terms of height and depth.

5.  improved sensitivity to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.

6.  powered woofer to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.


George

As an official Salk Veracity koolaid drinker, I appreciate your input.   It help to bring me back to this planet.

Although I can believe that there is another accurate midrange driver that might have a very slightly warmer sound, I would  worry about throwing the baby out with the bath water.  Knowing Jim though, I am sure that won't happen.  I wouldn't like a driver that had a lot of "warmth" distortion. 

The ability of the speaker to play loud and soft is a key quality for me.   When I play Linda Ronstadt with Nelson Riddle, Linda can blow me out of the chair when she opens up!   The clarity of being able to see the performers when I play well recorded material is also important.

Bob

[nicksgem10s]

I can't imagine it would be very easy to improve on the HT3 speakers.  I believe this one may take some time as Jim & Dennis have designed and built a highly musical speaker that is really able to perform very well with all types of music.

The workmanship and support these gentleman provide to their customers and forum participants is as high quality as their products.

I wish continued success to Salk Sound.

I can imagine that some RAAL ribbons (140-15D) might be the ticket if these are going to be big $$$ speakers.  I really want to hear those tweeters one of these days.  If finances were better I would order a pair to check out but they are over $1,100/pair.

I wonder how long before the "name this speaker" thread gets started.  HT4 makes sense but would kind of take the fun out of the name game.


Nick

[AliG]

Bob, you're not alone with regards to Linda Ronstadt aa aa

Especially after I got into vinyl, listening to how her voice coming through the HT3 is nothing short of a revelation. I may sometimes wish for a little bit more 'warmth' or 'distortion' when I play CDs, but when it comes to vinyl -  - the HT3 is one word - PERFECT! I'm sure you will agree, given how many pairs of speakers, how many expensive systems that we have auditioned together, can you name one that come close to mine, apart from yours??!!?
 

 

As an official Salk Veracity koolaid drinker, I appreciate your input.   It help to bring me back to this planet.

Although I can believe that there is another accurate midrange driver that might have a very slightly warmer sound, I would  worry about throwing the baby out with the bath water.  Knowing Jim though, I am sure that won't happen.  I wouldn't like a driver that had a lot of "warmth" distortion. 

The ability of the speaker to play loud and soft is a key quality for me.   When I play Linda Ronstadt with Nelson Riddle, Linda can blow me out of the chair when she opens up!   The clarity of being able to see the performers when I play well recorded material is also important.

Bob

[yooper]

I love my HT3's but have not heard the Vandy 5A.  Considering all the praise the 5A receive, I really hope to hear them someday.  The downside for me is that I may never own a pair considering the $20,000.00 price tag. 

If Jim and Dennis work their magic on the HT3 replacement, even at ten g's, I will have a pair of HT3's for sale!

Gotta say though, it sure is a compliment to see speakers costing $20,000.00 mentioned when talking about a $5000.00 Salk speaker.

Mark

[zybar]

Bob, you're not alone with regards to Linda Ronstadt aa aa

Especially after I got into vinyl, listening to how her voice coming through the HT3 is nothing short of a revelation. I may sometimes wish for a little bit more 'warmth' or 'distortion' when I play CDs, but when it comes to vinyl -  - the HT3 is one word - PERFECT! I'm sure you will agree, given how many pairs of speakers, how many expensive systems that we have auditioned together, can you name one that come close to mine, apart from yours??!!?

Guys,

Please stop calling warmth "distortion", as that is not necessarily true and definitely not what I am suggesting. 

I hate to keep coming back to the 5A's, but I not only get more warmth in the mid-range, they also pass along more details than the HT3's. 

And yes, it is quite a compliment to Jim and Dennis that I have to keep referencing a $20k speaker in order to find improvements across the board. 

George

[fsimms]

Especially after I got into vinyl, listening to how her voice coming through the HT3 is nothing short of a revelation. I may sometimes wish for a little bit more 'warmth' or 'distortion' when I play CDs, but when it comes to vinyl -   - the HT3 is one word - PERFECT!   I'm sure you will agree, given how many pairs of speakers, how many expensive systems that we have auditioned together, can you name one that come close to mine, apart from yours??!!?

 

Glad you got your vinyl system back up!   

No, I haven't heard any speakers that sounds better than yours, but I have only heard speakers under $300k.  Maybe more expensive speakers sound better. 

Bob

[DMurphy]

I thought the 5A's were too laid back from my listen at RMAF.  Must have been those Ayre amps!

They were the 5A's and not the regular 5's?  The original 5's sounded a little dark and laid back to my ears. 
[/quote]


Does anyone know what the differences are between the 5 and 5A?  Just curious about what kinds of changes seem to work. 

[zybar]

I thought the 5A's were too laid back from my listen at RMAF.  Must have been those Ayre amps!

They were the 5A's and not the regular 5's?  The original 5's sounded a little dark and laid back to my ears. 

Does anyone know what the differences are between the 5 and 5A?  Just curious about what kinds of changes seem to work. 
[/quote]

Dennis,

The 5A's have been out for quite sometime (over 5 years I believe), so I am not entirely positive about what was upgraded or changed over the 5's.

Here is a link describing the 5A's:

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Model5alit1.html

George

[TomS]

 

I thought the 5A's were too laid back from my listen at RMAF.  Must have been those Ayre amps!

They were the 5A's and not the regular 5's?  The original 5's sounded a little dark and laid back to my ears. 

Does anyone know what the differences are between the 5 and 5A?  Just curious about what kinds of changes seem to work. 
[/quote]

Dennis,

The 5A's have been out for quite sometime (over 5 years I believe), so I am not entirely positive about what was upgraded or changed over the 5's.

Here is a link describing the 5A's:

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Model5alit1.html

George

Lots of physical changes to go from 5 to 5A, listed here http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Model5AUpdate1.htm. 

I agree that while I love the Vandies (at $20k), the fact that the HT-3's compare so favorably is a testament to Jim and Dennis' achievement with it for less 1/3 the price +/-.  The Salks are awesome speakers by any measure, so a big step up in the line is hard to imagine.

[DMurphy]

Thanks very much.  Looks like there was a new midrange, tweeter, and revised crossover.  That would probably affect things.  But that must be some midrange, tweeter, and crossover to cost $8000. 

[AliG]

If you have a system based on HT3, and you find that it is a little 'bright, switching to 5A will give you more 'midrange details" at the expense of losing a little of 'sparkling' in the high.  Getting the right 'detail' out of your system is really a delicate balancing act. Every component in your system counts, not just the speakers. Hence a system that's a little 'bright' may give a more 'sparkling' or excitement in the high frequency, but it may mask out the delicacy in the midrange. I used to run Nordost Valhalla IC from my preamp to my amp, when I switched to Gabriel Gold Revelation Mk II, I immediately hear more 'low-level detail', because the Gabriel is a 'warmer' IC than the Nordost, it makes the high less dominating and brings out the midrange a little bit more. And don't forget we're talking about small subtleties/delicacies here, a small tweak here and there (e.g. the right isolation) can get you to where you want to be.
I know a guy down here in Houston who used to owns a 5A, I certainly do not hear more 'low level details' in his system than mine. He has moved on and now owns an Egglestoneworks Andrea II - which is another good speakers worth consideration in the $20k price range.

For reference, stereophile has this definition of the term "detail"
low-level detail The subtlest elements of musical sound, which include the delicate details of instrumental sounds and the final tail of reverberation decay

I hate to keep coming back to the 5A's, but I not only get more warmth in the mid-range, they also pass along more details than the HT3's. 

[woodsyi]

I know what George is talking about.  Warmth in this sense is a fullness that makes music so enjoyable (makes you warm and fuzzy inside  ) with all the layering it can decipher because it has a bigger pallet to show micro-dynamic and tonal shades.   

[JP78]

since i know nothing of the new price brackets...i'd like to recommend the mbl101e as a barometer for dynamics and impact. truthfully there are other attributes i love as well about the mbl, but the dynamics seem to receive universal praise regardless of personal preference...i'm still counting the months until i can purchase a pair. best of luck jim and dennis...i'm sure you guys will hit another home run.

[Rapt]

Guys,

Please stop calling warmth "distortion", as that is not necessarily true and definitely not what I am suggesting. 

I hate to keep coming back to the 5A's, but I not only get more warmth in the mid-range, they also pass along more details than the HT3's. 

George



      George,  I read alot of your posts and hold them in high regard knowing your experiences in high end audio. This being noted maybe Jim and Dennis should aim for a warmer sounding speaker as they have already apparently have a winner with the HT3's. This may widen their customer base, because as we all know that not all audiophiles are looking for a specific signature sound 

                                             Just a thought 

[asull2k]

If I were to make a warmer standmount such as the one described, I might use the Hiquphon + Seas W18 and dub thee Ellis 1801.  Oh wait, it's been done before.  Remember that Mr. Murphy has done a number of designs in the past with different results.  I believe Jim and Dennis worked together on the Salk products to produce a great value with sonic attributes that both were aiming for.  I also agree that upstream gear and more importantly placement/room treatment could be used to "tune" to a more satisfying sound for the user.

However, chasing down a sound that will satisfy everyone is just about impossible.  Why?  Because the listener does not necessarily want something that is objectively better.  Nor do they hear the same thing.. an example is if you ever have the misfortune of auditioning a system with other people present.  "What beautiful midrange!" when there is obvious suckout due to room acoustics or "Such tight bass!" when the tables and walls are vibrating wooly tones is not uncommon in my experience.  I have yet to hear whatever exceptional clarity electrostats/magneplanars are supposed to offer; I have heard distortion particularly in the extremes and ghostly non-tangible mids (aside from the Quads, whose attributes are likely due to the particular point source configuration) in a number of setups however.

I think if you're willing to pay more for a particular sound, then if you do the legwork you can find it eventually.  But asking Dennis to mimic something doesn't really seem to make much sense given how many variables and cost are involved (there is a reason why the Vandy 5A and Eggleston cost what they cost).  With multi-driver configurations, things can get very complex.  The possibilities are endless - new drivers from Seas, Scanspeak, Accuton, Alain, ATD will keep coming out and designing for high quality bass must be a ridiculous pain.. considering how many speakers out there have terrible quality bass extension.  I think it is not a good idea to keep begging for every permutation - otherwise you run into the trap of designing a bunch of speakers with mediocre results that many DIY'ers seem to have done.  My experience with Dennis and Jim is that they finalize designs based on a certain level of satisfaction attained by both after quite a bit of testing and failed designs, and the end result is a sound that is somewhat like the Wilson WATT/Puppy's but better in certain parameters (at least to my ears).  That alone is a huge cost discrepancy and the value is quite remarkable.  But if the HT3's or HT4's were priced $25k, I might have to retract that statement.  Is this really what you want?

      George,  I read alot of your posts and hold them in high regard knowing your experiences in high end audio. This being noted maybe Jim and Dennis should aim for a warmer sounding speaker as they have already apparently have a winner with the HT3's. This may widen their customer base, because as we all know that not all audiophiles are looking for a specific signature sound 

[satfrat]

I know what George is talking about.  Warmth in this sense is a fullness that makes music so enjoyable (makes you warm and fuzzy inside  ) with all the layering it can decipher because it has a bigger pallet to show micro-dynamic and tonal shades.   

Well now I may have come up with 1 possible reason why I liked the 5A's so much,,,,,, Richard Vandersteen uses his own version of Jim Goulding's Woolie Surrounds!


My Odyssey Lorelei sporting Jim Goulding's diffractionbegone,,, a.k.a Woolie Surrounds.



Cheers,
Robin

[DMurphy]

Looks like that diffraction killer thing on your speaker would work better if it didn't introduce sharp edges around the tweeter.  The Vandy version appears to be applied flush with the drivers, although I can't quite tell about the tweeter.  But to important matters, and one pertaining to a Salk speaker that actually exists:   Da HT3 Woof is IN DA HOUSE.  That's right--no more waiting, no more excuses.  I got the new version of the TC1 woofer today, and I'll get to work testing it pronto.  Maybe poor Jim can start shipping some of those HT3's pretty soon. 

[satfrat]

Looks like that diffraction killer thing on your speaker would work better if it didn't introduce sharp edges around the tweeter.  The Vandy version appears to be applied flush with the drivers, although I can't quite tell about the tweeter.  But to important matters, and one pertaining to a Salk speaker that actually exists:   Da HT3 Woof is IN DA HOUSE.  That's right--no more waiting, no more excuses.  I got the new version of the TC1 woofer today, and I'll get to work testing it pronto.  Maybe poor Jim can start shipping some of those HT3's pretty soon. 

I like what I hear better with the Woolies than without it Dennis. But others like yourself have disagreed. This picture was taken when the Woolies had only 2 connction points at the top of the pad. I have since used 6 connection points per pad for a more secure connection. Either way, the sound stage depth & imaging have improved with their use w/o any rolloff in tweeter output IMHO.

Cheers,
Robin

Cheers,
Robin