[forky]

I'm slowly "setting up" my system in my somewhat new room. I keep going back to (approximately) the same positioning for the M3s and my chair. I have walked around the room with music playing at around 85-90 db and found it odd that there was virtually no bass felt (and seemed lower in bass hearing wise also) in the front corners. Most of the bass was on the back wall (and sounded and "felt" good btw, not too much) although about 30% of the back of the room opens up into the rest of the house.

Acoustic panel company rep #1 said something like maybe I'm at the center of the universe since that never happens and rep #2 said that was typical for open baffle - and that I really don't need bass traps in the front corners for open baffle.

My rear corners are not available for bass traps since one is open to the entry way of the house and the other one has a bedroom door in that corner.

Just wanted to get some thoughts on this.

Side note: I have deflection in place behind my chair but had to send back 1st and 2nd reflection panels for replacements due to poor build quality. I had also ordered some bass traps (from #1) but they looked like 11 year olds built them so I sent them back for a refund.

I also plan on putting the Abb1s behind the M3s and possibly in the middle front wall.

[ric]

Not sure what your setup is roomwise, but you do know that OB SHOULD give you more bass the further away from the corners. It seems that if you are not hearing much bass, then bass traps would not be called for. Have you tried test tones, moved your listening position, using a sub, etc?
Good luck!

[Mr. Big]

I'm slowly "setting up" my system in my somewhat new room. I keep going back to (approximately) the same positioning for the M3s and my chair. I have walked around the room with music playing at around 85-90 db and found it odd that there was virtually no bass felt (and seemed lower in bass hearing wise also) in the front corners. Most of the bass was on the back wall (and sounded and "felt" good btw, not too much) although about 30% of the back of the room opens up into the rest of the house.

Acoustic panel company rep #1 said something like maybe I'm at the center of the universe since that never happens and rep #2 said that was typical for open baffle - and that I really don't need bass traps in the front corners for open baffle.

My rear corners are not available for bass traps since one is open to the entry way of the house and the other one has a bedroom door in that corner.

Just wanted to get some thoughts on this.

Side note: I have deflection in place behind my chair but had to send back 1st and 2nd reflection panels for replacements due to poor build quality. I had also ordered some bass traps (from #1) but they looked like 11 year olds built them so I sent them back for a refund.

I also plan on putting the Abb1s behind the M3s and possibly in the middle front wall.

Bass Traps are helpful. GIK makes nice ones that is affordable. The imaging improves, and bass is more dynamic and detailed. I have used them for years now on different speakers like Quads Electrostatics which puts out as much sound from the back of them as the front. I pull them from time to time, and they go right back up.

My loft area:

[forky]

Not sure what your setup is roomwise, but you do know that OB SHOULD give you more bass the further away from the corners. It seems that if you are not hearing much bass, then bass traps would not be called for. Have you tried test tones, moved your listening position, using a sub, etc?
Good luck!

I plan to take measurements for the first time in the next week or so but have played w/ the speakers and the chair quite a bit. The best bass is on the rear wall but I don't want to sit that far away and the sound stage that far back isn't very good.

Most have said a sub isn't beneficial w/ M3s on this forum but I haven't ruled that out. Once I get the room fully treated (as far as the wife will allow anyway) then I'll make a decision on subs. Also interested in the test tones/ measurements.

[forky]

Bass Traps are helpful. GIK makes nice ones that is affordable. The imaging improves, and bass is more dynamic and detailed. I have used them for years now on different speakers like Quads Electrostatics which puts out as much sound from the back of them as the front. I pull them from time to time, and they go right back up.

My loft area:

I sent back my bass traps to GIK a few weeks ago. The fit and finish was quite frankly terrible. If I saw them at a garage sale for $1.50 I would have passed on them. To add salt to that wound I had to pay for shipping back to them since I want a refund and not an exchange which was half the cost of the traps ($250 for shipping them back). I sent back the 242s also but those weren't nearly as bad so they are just redoing those.

I've asked my rep there to please make sure someone there does some QC before the 242s are shipped back out.

I did receive some sound planks from ASC for the back wall and they arrived in perfect shape and all the folds were perfect with no wringle, dents or waves. ASC costs a lot more but the quality is a lot higher from just what I have seen.

Anyway, I'm now looking into whether or not I want to invest in tube traps from ASC or traps from some other company. I'll likely see what the 242s do for me and whatever I decide on for diffusion behind the M3s.

[WGH]

I'll likely see what the 242s do for me and whatever I decide on for diffusion behind the M3s.

You will also have to decide on what type of diffusion: phase coherent or out of phase, do you want a diffuse unfocused soundstage like a concert hall or a phase correct presentation where it is easy to locate the singer, instruments and drummer.

Stereophile has an excellent in depth article about room acoustics or, as I like to say, everything you think you know about room acoustics is wrong.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/nwaa-labs-measurement-beyond-atomic-level

Plenty more reading at A/V RoomService along with white papers
https://avroomservice.com/

[Mr. Big]

I sent back my bass traps to GIK a few weeks ago. The fit and finish was quite frankly terrible. If I saw them at a garage sale for $1.50 I would have passed on them. To add salt to that wound I had to pay for shipping back to them since I want a refund and not an exchange which was half the cost of the traps ($250 for shipping them back). I sent back the 242s also but those weren't nearly as bad so they are just redoing those.

I've asked my rep there to please make sure someone there does some QC before the 242s are shipped back out.

I did receive some sound planks from ASC for the back wall and they arrived in perfect shape and all the folds were perfect with no wringle, dents or waves. ASC costs a lot more but the quality is a lot higher from just what I have seen.

Anyway, I'm now looking into whether or not I want to invest in tube traps from ASC or traps from some other company. I'll likely see what the 242s do for me and whatever I decide on for diffusion behind the M3s.

I purchased my Corner traps maybe 10 years ago so perhaps they have changed at GIK, I know they went through some hard times with COVID and then they hired a CEO who dam near ruined the company with business changes. ASC I use also as you can see in the picture. GIK is just the Corner Bass traps.

[Tyson]

IME, bass traps are needed 'less' with OB than box speakers.  Box speakers interact with all 3 parts of a room - top-to-bottom, side-to-side, and front-to-back.  This is the worst, acoustically. 

OB speakers on the other hand, only interact with 2 parts of the room - top-to-bottom and front-to-back.  Much better.

But both types of speakers benefit from bass traps.  It's just that OB speakers are 'less bad' than box speakers.

[forky]

Thanks for all the replies. For now I'm going to hold on the bass traps. My main concern is still brightness which is another thread. My (redone) GIK 242s should be in later next week and we'll see how those do in addition to the ASC planks (mounted on the rear wall) and ABB1s - those will be here next week but I realize are for deflection and not absorbtion and will be on the front wall inc behind the M3s.

[Tangram]

The easiest way to determine if you need bass traps is to stand in a corner and listen. It should get pretty boomy if there is an issue.
Since your room opens up into the rest of the room, harder to pressurize the room. Also OB aren't going to excite the room as much as a box speaker.
I think it is best to live with the speakers for quite a long time and then revisit whether you need additional room treatments. The presentation of the Spatials is in my experience quite different and takes getting used to. I have subs but took them out of the system when I got Spatials. They were in use with the three sets of speakers (two large standmounts and one floorstander) prior to that.

One of the things I like most about the Spatials is the ability to simplify my system by removing the subs.

[forky]

Thanks - I was just reading of post of yours in my "brightness" thread - which I'll likley bump after my (redone) GIK 242s are in place in a few weeks - but has the over 85 db brightness in your system improved over the past 9-10 months? Mine hasn't but - again I'm going to withhold any more judgement than that unitl the GIK panels are up. Also probably only a third through breakin (sigh). I contacted a reviewer of M3s from a few years ago recently and we traded a few emails. He loved the m3s at first and even bought them but he also could never get the highs to "settle down". He said with the crossover for the tweeter being so low is asking too much of it (and "where most of the music is"). Maybe my room is getting overloaded but I'm also wondering if the tweeter is getting overloaded at higher DBs when there is a lot going on in the song. This even happened with "Babe I'm going to Leave You" by LZ the other day - and that particular song is not hard rock IMO. There are 2-3 guitars + Plant's vocals and I think a separate midrange driver would be better - although I know there are plenty of sucessful 2-way speakers out there - including I think some from JBL.

I'm still thrilled with my M3s with jazz, electronic music and "regular" rock and still very much unhappy with them with hard rock. If the GIKs don't help I'll likely either sell and replace or possibly buy a cheaper 2nd set of speakers for hard rock.

[Tangram]

Thanks - I was just reading of post of yours in my "brightness" thread - which I'll likley bump after my (redone) GIK 242s are in place in a few weeks - but has the over 85 db brightness in your system improved over the past 9-10 months? Mine hasn't but - again I'm going to withhold any more judgement than that unitl the GIK panels are up. Also probably only a third through breakin (sigh). I contacted a reviewer of M3s from a few years ago recently and we traded a few emails. He loved the m3s at first and even bought them but he also could never get the highs to "settle down". He said with the crossover for the tweeter being so low is asking too much of it (and "where most of the music is"). Maybe my room is getting overloaded but I'm also wondering if the tweeter is getting overloaded at higher DBs when there is a lot going on in the song. This even happened with "Babe I'm going to Leave You" by LZ the other day - and that particular song is not hard rock IMO. There are 2-3 guitars + Plant's vocals and I think a separate midrange driver would be better - although I know there are plenty of sucessful 2-way speakers out there - including I think some from JBL.

I'm still thrilled with my M3s with jazz, electronic music and "regular" rock and still very much unhappy with them with hard rock. If the GIKs don't help I'll likely either sell and replace or possibly buy a cheaper 2nd set of speakers for hard rock.

Interesting comment about the tweeter being "asked to do too much". TBH, after 15 months of ownership, I still can't sustain above 85 db for any length of time without the treble getting fatiguing. Something won't sound right, I'll grab my SPL meter and sure enough, peaks up to 90 db, A-weighted.

A couple of things about my system. I'm 100% analog, with a tube preamp and tube phono pre, along with a Class A solid state amp. So lots of things in the chain to take some edge off the sound. But on the phono pre, I have the loadings set on the phono pre to give maximum "softness" if that makes any sense and I still have to watch the highs. So maybe the tweeter IS the issue. I mean, Clayton has swapped it out for another one but I'm not sure if we really know the reason. Maybe it's availability, maybe it isn't.

[forky]

Well the crossover went from 576 to 800 - so it increased at least some. Still seems low to me but I have about .00001% of speaker knowlege than Clayton. I do however am becoming more confident in my thinking that for "noiser" music with a lot going on that perhaps these either aren't the speakers for me or I need to buy another set for hard rock which is now up to about 30% of what I listen do (now that I'm currently going through a Led Zeppelin phase.......again).

I listened to this a few days ago and LOUD - 90-95 and it sounded fricken amazing: https://www.discogs.com/release/13439481-Dominique-Fils-Aim%C3%A9-Stay-Tuned

Electronnic such as this: https://www.discogs.com/release/2372254-Thievery-Corporation-Radio-Retaliation , is also amazing and sounds great LOUD.

But anything with heaiver electric guitar then forget it - esp when "stronger" higher range vocals such as Layne Stayley or Robert Plant.

If the proglem is my room (which I'll know more in a few weeks) then I wonder why these other records sound so good at high volume (?). They aren't all the recordings. I have some damn fine recordings of Zeppelin, Tool and AIC that just don't sound good about 83-85 db. Below that they sound fantastic w/ the M3s.

I'm thinking something like some bookshelf ATC speakers w/ a nice REL sub or subs so they wouldn't take up a lot of room since the M3s would also be there. Listening to Led Zeppelin at low volume is not a viable option for me. 

Also, in my Brighness thread a few pointed to the quality of the recording - and I also very much get that as I've spent a lot of time and $ over the past 18 months on the best pressings for the music I like. However, after reading many more posts elsewhere and reviews there seems to be many excellenet speakers which aren't quite as honest as the M3s (meaning more forgiving for lesser recordings). But I still think the M3 tweeters are probably the issue.

[kingdeezie]

I used to have a similar problem with my system in my old house/old listening room. Different recordings, especially metal/rock (most of what I love), would fatigue my ears and sound bright/hard/glared.

The remedy was multi-staged.

1) Absorption on the first and second reflection points.

2) Optimizing power supplied to the equipment. I ran a dedicated outlet to start. Went through multiple power conditioners as well. Settled on the Equicore 1800 eventually; relatively cheap and effective. Haven’t changed since.

Both of these things helped relax the sound enough to enjoy most music in that old room. I’d see what you can achieve with your 242s before planning on new speakers.

[forky]

Good to hear! I googled your power line conditioner - I'm guessing they went out of business but not sure. The power I had at my old house was very clean. Here it is less so but not too bad I think. I do have a dedicated line but also think it could be improved some. I'll likely pull the trigger on a PSM156 at some point....and probably before spearkers it sounds like.

I really DO want keep the M3s. As mentioned they sound insanely good on the non-hard rock stuff. Thanks for your post! - a bit more optimism for the M3s.

[toocool4]

I don’t know why people use words like bass traps, no such things you can’t trap bass you can only manage it. Sounds like you are guessing at the problem and solution, you need to measure and find the problem before you can attempt to control it. If you keep guessing, you will keep wasting your money.

One thing someone has mentioned is test tones, I would recommend playing test tones in the range you are having issues with then move around the room to get a good idea about what is going on. Once you know, then you can have an idea on how to control it.

With room treatment, quantity is key. People think they can just plunk a small panel here and there and the problem will be fixed, no chance. Surface area matters, so you have problems with 90% of the surface area and you think you can fix it by covering say 5% ish of the area i.e. the corners will fix the problem. Good luck. Don’t guess, find out the issues then tackle it.

[lazbisme]

all the talk about "bass absorbers" no mention of the ONLY in room device that will effectively control bass issues is the diaphragmatic absorber. They are heavy but they work.

[kingdeezie]

Good to hear! I googled your power line conditioner - I'm guessing they went out of business but not sure. The power I had at my old house was very clean. Here it is less so but not too bad I think. I do have a dedicated line but also think it could be improved some. I'll likely pull the trigger on a PSM156 at some point....and probably before spearkers it sounds like.

I really DO want keep the M3s. As mentioned they sound insanely good on the non-hard rock stuff. Thanks for your post! - a bit more optimism for the M3s.

Core Power Technologies is the company. They are owned by Underwood Hifi who sells direct.

[MichaelHiFi]

I use the GIK bass traps. TBH, not sure they're needed and have my X3's bass amps at full volume.

That being said bass is best in my dedicated audio room at the rear wall. More damning than that, soundstage too is better. The rule of thirds went out the window. Maybe it's due to how dead the rear wall is given it's almost completely built with shelves that hold albums and other paraphanalia?  Still, I don't like it.

We struggle too with soundstage depth. My wife especially, misses the layering we used to experience with other rooms/speakers/setups.

I'm thinking of moving the X3's upstairs to see if I can realize some front to back layering in an untreated wide open space. But that's painful as I'm reviewing the most amazing DAC I ever didn't hear.

[forky]

I asked my GIK rep about taking measurements and here was his reply "Only do acoustical measurements if you’re willing to do whatever it takes to make the measurements look good. It will mean a lot of big thick panels on walls and ceilings, and bigger ones still in corners. If you’re NOT going to do that, than your path is going to be deploying the best practical devices within the constraints of what will be visually acceptable. We don’t need plots to do that." I can tell you that my wife (and I really) would not accept that room looking like a room that is dedicated w/ panels scattered everywhere and most likely shut off to the rest of the home (if you are married anyway). Is this the fault of the speakers? IMO, yes and no as there are other speakers that are more friendly to more untreated rooms. One such speaker I have read about is the Ohm Walsh - which is also under consideration if I can't get the M3s to fully work - but hoping I can of course.

I have a thick shag rug, curtains along the front wall w/ 8' x 16' total of ABB1s incoming, 6' x 9' total of 242s incoming for the side walls (1st and 2nd), ASC planks on the back wall (both absorb and diffusion - and may add more later) and a big fabric OS chair just arrived from Pottery Barn yesterday. Once all together we'll see how that sounds and I may take some measurements but the only thing I would be add from there is bass traps - yes bass traps although since w/ the M3s there is little to no bass in the front corners - probably not.

Michael, that is my exact same issue - the bass sounds (and feels) the best along the back wall but that is too far away from the speakers and would block the "runway" to the MBR. I do think the sound stage is better with the chair where it is which is about 7' from the back wall.

Pics as the room sits now - waiting for the 242s and the ABB1s. As mentioned I'll likley add more ASC planks later as well. But that will about do it - maybe plants in the front corners instead of bass traps. Oh and of course the large box will be removed when it is picked up.

Speakers are about 4' from the front wall, 4' from the side walls, 7'4" apart and my chair is 10'6" from the speakers which is about 7' from the back wall. They look more toed in than they are because of the pano shot. They are pointed to just outside of my ear on each side. I've moved the speakers and the chair around a lot (but more fine tuning can be done of course) and this is where everything sounds the best except the bass along the back wall I'm missing where the chair is. There is some, but not as much.