Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately

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mcmusicman

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #20 on: 10 Sep 2021, 10:47 pm »
My go to evening music is Female vocals with Jazz trio...Piano, Standup & drum.  It is no wonder I like to listen to Dipole Planar transducers because they, to my ears, are the best to recreate this sound all other things equal. High Res has been able to get me pretty close to hearing the Piano in the room.  I think it is not an easy challenge to reproduce a section of violins...though that may have a lot to do with the recording?

low.pfile

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #21 on: 11 Sep 2021, 02:16 am »
This thread is really interesting. Though not overly familiar the output of most instruments I can't contribute. Even with my great deal of live show experience (amplified music) that is different. I have been to the symphony, and heard live jazz trios, but not the genre of music I listen to often on my systems. Cheers

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #22 on: 11 Sep 2021, 03:31 am »
My go to evening music is Female vocals with Jazz trio...Piano, Standup & drum.  It is no wonder I like to listen to Dipole Planar transducers because they, to my ears, are the best to recreate this sound all other things equal. High Res has been able to get me pretty close to hearing the Piano in the room.  I think it is not an easy challenge to reproduce a section of violins...though that may have a lot to do with the recording?

I have to agree with you about planars and piano.  I have not heard a box speaker that sounds as good as a Magnepan for piano, especially with the Marantz NA11s1 DAC that I use to own.  It sounded like a grand piano was in the room (and I know what one sounds like as my mother in-law was a concert pianist).  The tone, texture and decay were phenomenal.  But of course I have not heard all speakers but maybe someday if I live to be 200. :)

By the way, thanks KMMD!  It is a slow recovery but I am getting a 12 week break from the craziness of COVID patients.  You stay healthy and safe.

Cheytak.408

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #23 on: 11 Sep 2021, 05:02 am »
A  Bösendorfer Grande Imperial 97 key piano and the Wanamaker/Macy pipe organ.

There is not a loudspeaker made today that can "faithfully" portray the power, nuance and harmonic series of these instruments.  The stupidly over the top Wilson WAMM Chronosonic fails...

Disclaimer: I am not a fan of the etched, overly sterile reproduction of top shelf Wilson speakers.

That said, there are more than a few speakers that will give a tremendous degree of enjoyment of 99.9% of available recordings including the instruments mentioned above as well as SRV, Twenty One Pilots, Alicia Keyes, Pete Belasco's "Deeper" CD and much, much more.  :thumb:

DannyBadorine

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #24 on: 11 Sep 2021, 01:09 pm »
This was always my opinion as well. Two systems, all things being equal (best of the best), one being analog, and one being digital: The analog one will reproduce the analog recording better, and the digital will reproduce the digital signal better.

Currently in my system, even digitally recorded material sounds better on my analog rig. BUT, we'll see if that's still the case when I receive my new DAC.

Recently I've re-watched all the Peter Ledermann Soundsmith videos, and he quoted a find from an Ortofon engineer, that a stylus can track and accurately reproduce a sound from groove displacement as small as .005 microns, or 50 hydrocarbon molecules, and can be "easily heard". This was with an "average" stylus. So better stylus for instance he believes it will be about 20 molecules will be easily heard, and of course smaller could be heard as well, but not "easily".... If you then take that and assume this is a "step" or cut of sound in a digital domain of a 24bit/48khz recording, it would be somewhere around 100 TIMES the resolution of the 24bit stream.... something that simply blows my mind... vinyl should not work :lol: at least as well as it does.

But if this was recorded using a digital signal, of course it wouldn't be the case, as you'd have the "steps" of the recording in the record groove itself. And again, back to "all things being equal" it then SHOULD sound better on a digital system IMO.

Yes!

DannyBadorine

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #25 on: 11 Sep 2021, 01:12 pm »
The problem is no one knows how to record the piano. They do not know how to record a cymbal crash either.

Especially, in stereo.

I disagree.  There are some great piano recordings and many great ways to deal with a cymbal crash.  But again, this is dependent on the player.  For cymbals, most recordings have 2 overhead microphones that are several feet above the drummer.  These are panned hard left and right which will get you a stereo sound of the cymbals and drums.  If the drummer knows how to hit the cymbals without bashing them then you get a great crash sound (John Bonham was really good at hitting his cymbals correctly). For piano it becomes complicated because it's such a 3 dimensional instrument that putting it into stereo is tough, but there are many ways of using two microphones to create a good stereo image of a piano.

BobM

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #26 on: 11 Sep 2021, 01:51 pm »
the Wanamaker/Macy pipe organ.


Or any organ for that manner. If you've ever heard a live Hammond/Leslie in a concert hall, then went back to your system and put on a recording of a Hammond/Leslie combo you will immediately laugh, because it sounds like a toy compared to the real thing.

PDR

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #27 on: 11 Sep 2021, 03:16 pm »
The "Ting" of a triangle.....
Domes, Ribbons, Planers, Electrostats all
have a different take on the "Ting"
Which do you PREFER is what really matters I suppose...

dflee

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #28 on: 11 Sep 2021, 03:23 pm »
I use a resonator guitar as a test on speakers. It's fun to hear the difference. As I think it is Tyson who states "it's all a fake".

Cheytak.408

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #29 on: 11 Sep 2021, 07:26 pm »
Or any organ for that manner. If you've ever heard a live Hammond/Leslie in a concert hall, then went back to your system and put on a recording of a Hammond/Leslie combo you will immediately laugh, because it sounds like a toy compared to the real thing.
Yes, sir.  You nailed it with the Leslie.  It is hard to get that 3-D thing going in 2-channel Audio.  There are a few recordings done with QSound that get very close though: Richard Wright "Broken China" and on Pink Floyd's "Pulse".

Scroof Neachy

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #30 on: 11 Sep 2021, 08:39 pm »
It has to be the kazoo as far as I’m concerned. It always sounds like someone blowing into a comb that’s covered with Kleenex.

JerryM

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FullRangeMan

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #32 on: 11 Sep 2021, 10:15 pm »
There are a number of hard to solve impediments to reproduce a large instrument as the piano as a hi-end audio in a home, another thing even more difficult is to realistically reproduce the piano in a room, note that the source of these reproductions are not a real piano but a recording.

A piano heard near has a wonderful sound of wood, years a go a pianist and music producer I knew always said nothing surpass the acoustic instrument, until today this has been true.

So if the system is really good it will be faithful to the recording, however as we know a recording is very different from an real instrument heard two meters from your ear. After decades of try and error evaluating and considering the problem of fidelity in a home room, I come to conclusion that the fidelity to live music prob should not bother the audiophile, the objective of a hi-end audio system is above all reproduce a beautiful and pleasant sound of recorded music according to its owners personal taste.

I cant say here what loudspeakers with xovers and sound emission only to front are, objectify the faithful reproduction of the live music in a room is a goal created by audio magazines and of course is a waste of time.
« Last Edit: 12 Sep 2021, 09:52 pm by FullRangeMan »

richidoo

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #33 on: 12 Sep 2021, 03:04 am »
Dizzy Gillespie playing harmon muted trumpet above high C, and loudly.



S Clark

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #34 on: 12 Sep 2021, 03:22 am »
For those of us that have spent a few years sitting at big grands, the complete sound of a piano is hard to get right.  It's almost like three different instruments in the bass, mids, and treble... each with their nuance.  I've only heard a small handful of speakers do it well. 
I've had one of them for quite a while, and am unlikely to ever look for a replacement. 
Is guitar the easiest??

Conmoto22

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #35 on: 14 Sep 2021, 01:31 am »
For my ears, everything is difficult to reproduce; however, my list of speakers listened to isn't long. I'd have to say Maggies were the most realistic. As mentioned in my intro to AudioCircle, I'm in the market for some big boy speakers, X3 or X5. I expect they would equal or surpass what I heard from the Maggies. I've had the privilege to conduct some fine musicians, so I'm afraid I'll never get the same sonic experience from an audio system. Then again, it's nice to distance myself from the players and enjoy the room too, which is how most large ensembles are recorded. 

FullRangeMan

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Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #36 on: 14 Sep 2021, 10:10 pm »
I've had the privilege to conduct some fine musicians, so I'm afraid I'll never get the same sonic experience from an audio system.
In this case maybe would be interesting to you test a nice headphone as HifiMan Ananda or Arya, they will offer you a detailed POV of the musical performance that you may like and may be useful to your position as a conductor.

Ananda and Arya needs a amp to sound great, but will keep wife happy due no big speaker in the living room, since she dont know its prices :thumb:
« Last Edit: 15 Sep 2021, 03:36 am by FullRangeMan »

decal

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #37 on: 15 Sep 2021, 05:17 pm »
Piano

Carlman

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #38 on: 15 Sep 2021, 05:38 pm »
Weird.. my system reproduces piano quite convincingly to my ears.  That's the 1 thing I can say it does better than most others.  However, everything else... I can tell it's fake. 
I guess that's why I like electronica with real piano layered on top (Radiohead, Coldplay, etc.)...  Which begs the question.. do you gravitate to music that plays well on your system now... or do you try to find gear that matches what you want to hear. :) Or are you always in that continuum? forever!  :icon_lol:

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately
« Reply #39 on: 15 Sep 2021, 06:51 pm »
Weird.. my system reproduces piano quite convincingly to my ears.  That's the 1 thing I can say it does better than most others.  However, everything else... I can tell it's fake. 
I guess that's why I like electronica with real piano layered on top (Radiohead, Coldplay, etc.)...  Which begs the question.. do you gravitate to music that plays well on your system now... or do you try to find gear that matches what you want to hear. :) Or are you always in that continuum? forever!  :icon_lol:

That"s an interesting question.  I do a little of both, but I have to say that my system has opened up new genres of music to me because it sounds so good on my system.  Same for my 30 year old son who is an audio enthusiast.