Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff

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routlaw

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #20 on: 15 Aug 2021, 01:43 pm »
The birch plywood you saw at HD is not Baltic birch, but rather just birch veneered plywood. Baltic birch plywood comes in 5x5 foot sheets not 4x8 sheets and is made to a different standard.

Otherwise you are correct building materials have skyrocketed over the last several months in some cases increasing 4 to 5 fold. Heck a 7/16 sheet of OSB is now around $60 + or -   Major price gouging going on here. 1/4 inch sheets of hardwood ply are near $50

oskar

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #21 on: 16 Aug 2021, 01:52 pm »
Baltic is often available in 5 x 5 sheets. Hard to get in the van. I always buy the 4 x 8. Here in Toronto it's readily available. The price has skyrocketed at least 35% during the damnpemic.

Peter J

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #22 on: 16 Aug 2021, 03:12 pm »
Tech Ingredients is but one resource that has percussion measured Baltic Birch and compared to MDF.  The differences are small but real. Intuitively, I'm inclined to agree with Early B that many, if not most, folks would be hard pressed to hear a difference, all else being equal. If someone were willing to orchestrate such a test or provide me with the means, I could supply test mule cabinets. I have yet to see such comparisons with Bamboo, but would like to. Planet 10, where is it you get MDF for free? This past year has been truly a booger for consistent supply.

Some things to consider.
1.Hi density MDF (like Ranger Board Platinum or Medex), is certainly easier to hold down (vacuum) and machines more crisply on CNC router. As a result of this consistency in flatness and density I can achieve a higher average yield of parts per sheet. No small thing in a manufacturing environment.

2. All MDF is not equal. Nor is plywood. There's no magic bullet here. Better quality is more expensive as a rule, but spending more guarantees nothing in the speaker realm.

3. Baltic Birch and a few others like Appleply are unique among plywood because their core plys are hardwood. Most North American hardwood plywood uses softwood for core plys. There's also several hybrids that use MDF for  the outer ply that veneer is attached to. It is indeed available in 4x8', but not common outside of industry.

4. Baltic Birch is not graded like North American plywood because it's not manufactured here. A2 would be typical grade stamp for hardwood veneered ply. The A face being best grade available, and the back (2) grade being somewhat less, but not bad.

5. Baltic Birch is commonly available in two grades. B/BB and BB/BB. There is not huge distinction between face and back. The outer plys are typically one piece, rotary cut and plugged defects are possible in either. The primary difference between the two is the core plys are sorted for color. This makes the edge look more like the face on the B/BB, and raises the cost significantly.

5. Baltic Birch, for the most part, is considered utility plywood. Yes, it's has hardwood faces, but as pointed out, it's not the "prettiest pony". Staining and dying are difficult at best.

 MDF, despite people's dislike, is a viable product for speaker building. It's reasonably priced, consistent in flatness and density, and decently damped. I don't have love for the stuff, but's it's suitable for the task and manufacturing in general. I suspect that's why it's used so much in the commercial speaker building world. It just checks more boxes than alternatives.   

planet10

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #23 on: 16 Aug 2021, 04:27 pm »
Quote
Planet 10, where is it you get MDF for free?

Chris worked at a very large cabinet shop and the amount of MDF scrap would have in most part satisfied all of our speaker building needs. Makes good plinths and vent spacers.

Quote
5. Baltic Birch, for the most part, is considered utility plywood. Yes, it's has hardwood faces, but as pointed out, it's not the "prettiest pony". Staining and dying are difficult at best.

It is available in a number of grades. Some prettier than others. The maple plies added to the BB on th eMirphy Plywood sheet s(4x8) makes for a pretty plywood.

We di ddo the 2 enclosures the same but for MDF vrs plywood. Difference was obvious. It wa slike there was a continuous low level grunge coming out of the MDF box burying the samllest details. AFAIC those small little bits play a huge riole in the difference between good and really good.

dave

Peter J

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #24 on: 16 Aug 2021, 05:18 pm »
Chris worked at a very large cabinet shop and the amount of MDF scrap would have in most part satisfied all of our speaker building needs. Makes good plinths and vent spacers.

It is available in a number of grades. Some prettier than others. The maple plies added to the BB on th eMirphy Plywood sheet s(4x8) makes for a pretty plywood.

We di ddo the 2 enclosures the same but for MDF vrs plywood. Difference was obvious. It wa slike there was a continuous low level grunge coming out of the MDF box burying the samllest details. AFAIC those small little bits play a huge riole in the difference between good and really good.

dave

Do you mean Murphy? https://www.murphyplywood.com/. I'm curious just what product you're talking about. Can you link it?

I suspect we'd need a bigger sampling of listening impressions to be informative to the folks reading this. My specific thought was to measure the percussive resonance of same structure built with differing materials.

planet10

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #25 on: 16 Aug 2021, 05:48 pm »
Chris would have to answer that. They have lots of products.

The stuff we were using was 12/15/18mm with 2 more plies than typical BB at those thicknesses. Actual thickness is a bit higher than the nominal specification.

dave

EdwardT

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #26 on: 16 Aug 2021, 07:30 pm »
To be fair, it was always going to be veneer whether it was BB or mdf. I'm not so keen on painted finishes for speakers in my home system, but I’ve used many a catalyzed paint finish at work…it really takes the daily abuse touring dishes out.
These are mdf wearing a layer of mahogany:



lokie

Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #27 on: 17 Aug 2021, 05:05 pm »
The birch plywood you saw at HD is not Baltic birch, but rather just birch veneered plywood. Baltic birch plywood comes in 5x5 foot sheets not 4x8 sheets and is made to a different standard.

Otherwise you are correct building materials have skyrocketed over the last several months in some cases increasing 4 to 5 fold. Heck a 7/16 sheet of OSB is now around $60 + or -   Major price gouging going on here. 1/4 inch sheets of hardwood ply are near $50
Got it.
Looking for "real" BB sheet in Atlanta. Sent an email to Murphy Plywood to find a source in the area.

aldcoll

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #28 on: 17 Aug 2021, 05:27 pm »
Hey Murphy is just down the road from me.  I could  swing in and throw something in the back of the truck.  Not much hardwood here in Oregon.

Alan

EdwardT

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Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #29 on: 17 Aug 2021, 06:42 pm »
Würth has BB in Atlanta and Chattanooga.

lokie

Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #30 on: 17 Aug 2021, 09:43 pm »
Würth has BB in Atlanta and Chattanooga.
Hey hey! Wurth is just down the street from my kids soccer game this weekend. Woohoo!
I'll have something to do during the warm up.

jeffh

Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #31 on: 19 Aug 2021, 01:16 am »
Got it.
Looking for "real" BB sheet in Atlanta. Sent an email to Murphy Plywood to find a source in the area.


Peach State Lumber Products · 4000 Moon Station Rd NW. Kennesaw, GA 30144 · (678) 384-4688

lokie

Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #32 on: 24 Aug 2021, 10:51 am »

Peach State Lumber Products · 4000 Moon Station Rd NW. Kennesaw, GA 30144 · (678) 384-4688
Thanks

lokie

Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #33 on: 24 Aug 2021, 11:17 am »
What is your thoughts on open baffle? Does wood type matter?

Wayner

Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #34 on: 24 Aug 2021, 01:41 pm »
I'm in the process of restoring a Magnavox console that was touted as being made from "mahogany" , which was flat out BS. Its birch plywood covered with a series of stains and grain enhancing to give it that reddish look many have come to accept as a mahogany finish.

Birch is not an easy wood to stain if you want to change to colors other then just having it natural. That is the main reason I very much dislike birch as it is a bitch to render any acceptable color, at least to my liking.

Birch was chosen because it was cheap. I am now in the process of colorizing the veneer to something of my liking. Good luck to me.

'ner

Danny Richie

Re: Baltic Birch plywood, MDF, stiffness, resonances an'stuff
« Reply #35 on: 27 Aug 2021, 10:32 pm »
What is your thoughts on open baffle? Does wood type matter?

It still matters especially if you have flat baffle areas.

If you are cutting most of it away then it is not that bad.

You can bond hardwoods with MDF and get good results.