[jbl]

Open to any style of amplification.  Currently considering McIntosh, Bryston, and Hegel.  Hoping it is the ampliflier causing the glare.  The B24s in series really do sound amazing but may be revealing any flaws in the system too much.

[RonP]

Follow up on my experience with the B24s after 1 week.  Overall a significant step up from the B16 in bass, detail, air, dynamics and soundstage.  However, I am finding a puzzling issue with the B24's that perhaps someone could provide some insight on.  When I have the B24 connected from the DAC and streamer into the DigiBuss and Digibuss into the outlet, the sound has too much glare to it.  Listening fatigue sets in quickly.  The initial impressions with this combination is great.  Bass is deeper and everything has much more detail and air.  It sounds incredible for about 2 minutes then  the mids and high become fatiguing.  Using a B16 from the outlet to the DigiBuss removes the glare and everything becomes very listenable but with the loss of the added bass and detail and air.  Just not nearly as exciting, interesting and engaging. 

The current configuration that sounds best is the B24s on the DAC and streamer, using the 3rd B24 from the outlet to the UberBuss which powers my Emotiva mono blocks via B16's.  I have tried using the B24 on the amps and UberBuss but that also added too much glare and didn't sound quite as good as the DAC, streamer, DigiBuss combo.

I wonder if my Emotiva amps may be the weak link in the system and are being exposed by the B24s when used in series on the front end of the system. They have been great amps and have done an excellent jobs driving my Maggies so far but given the quality level of the rest of the system perhaps it is time to upgrade them.

I wonder if using B24's in series from the outlet may be amplifying the deficiencies of my system too much? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. 

System:

Lumin U1 streamer-SR Mig Tidal MQA and HiFI
Lumin X1 PSU-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha DAC Reference Series 3-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Pi Audio DigiBuss->streamer, DAC, B16
Pi Audio UberBuss->amps, B24
Emotiva XPA-DR1 monoblocks-B16
Magnepan 3.7i with upgraded crossover parts-Sonicaps capacitors, Jantzen foil/wax inductors, Mye Sound custom stands
Iconoclast AES/EBU digital cable, speaker cables(dual run), XLR cables

jbl,

what sounds levels are you listening at? When I when to demo some speakers about 2 years back the dealer made a comment to me about Emotiva Amps (that he was using in one of his rooms). He said you really need to turn them up a bit before they sound good. Maybe you can workup a temporary solution by adding some sort of db pad to knock off a few db somewhere in the signal path and play the amps "louder".

just an idea.

[WarmColors]

Sigh....

I am working on this right now and as I am finishing the copper clip at the bottom falls off. Where or how exactly should it be facing and what should it be touching?

Lol I guess I will be burning my house down tonight.

[WarmColors]

I am guessing it's inserted like this?

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Correct

[Jaytor]

Open to any style of amplification.  Currently considering McIntosh, Bryston, and Hegel.  Hoping it is the ampliflier causing the glare.  The B24s in series really do sound amazing but may be revealing any flaws in the system too much.

If you are open to buying used, there is a Krell FPB300 on Audiogon and an FPB600 on US AudioMart, both recently serviced by Krell to replace caps, etc. These amps are very smooth and slightly on the warm side and do great with the Magnepans. I had an FPB300 with MG3.6 speakers and they sounded fabulous.

[subsonic1050]

I am guessing it's inserted like this?

That looks right

[maxima95]

jbl

Can you possibly try some other amps to see if that is the problem?  Easier said than done, but I would want to know for sure before I bought new amps because of some power cord changes (unless you were heading in that direction before the changes).

[jbl]

Yes.  My local Hegel/Bryston dealer is going to loan me some amps to try out.  Will report on the results in a few weeks.  Hopefully figure out this B24 puzzle. 

JBL 

[Stephen Scharf]

Follow up on my experience with the B24s after 1 week.  Overall a significant step up from the B16 in bass, detail, air, dynamics and soundstage.  However, I am finding a puzzling issue with the B24's that perhaps someone could provide some insight on.  When I have the B24 connected from the DAC and streamer into the DigiBuss and Digibuss into the outlet, the sound has too much glare to it.  Listening fatigue sets in quickly.  The initial impressions with this combination is great.  Bass is deeper and everything has much more detail and air.  It sounds incredible for about 2 minutes then  the mids and high become fatiguing.  Using a B16 from the outlet to the DigiBuss removes the glare and everything becomes very listenable but with the loss of the added bass and detail and air.  Just not nearly as exciting, interesting and engaging. 

The current configuration that sounds best is the B24s on the DAC and streamer, using the 3rd B24 from the outlet to the UberBuss which powers my Emotiva mono blocks via B16's.  I have tried using the B24 on the amps and UberBuss but that also added too much glare and didn't sound quite as good as the DAC, streamer, DigiBuss combo.

I wonder if my Emotiva amps may be the weak link in the system and are being exposed by the B24s when used in series on the front end of the system. They have been great amps and have done an excellent jobs driving my Maggies so far but given the quality level of the rest of the system perhaps it is time to upgrade them.

I wonder if using B24's in series from the outlet may be amplifying the deficiencies of my system too much? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. 

System:

Lumin U1 streamer-SR Mig Tidal MQA and HiFI
Lumin X1 PSU-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha DAC Reference Series 3-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Pi Audio DigiBuss->streamer, DAC, B16
Pi Audio UberBuss->amps, B24
Emotiva XPA-DR1 monoblocks-B16
Magnepan 3.7i with upgraded crossover parts-Sonicaps capacitors, Jantzen foil/wax inductors, Mye Sound custom stands
Iconoclast AES/EBU digital cable, speaker cables(dual run), XLR cables

I would swap out the UberBuss and Digibuss and see what it sounds like. A good way to try this is to power your amps directly from the wall, if possible.

Also, I wouldn't be operating all those components in a power distributor that has no surge protection. My recommendation would the new Shunyata Venom V16 power distributor. It costs more, but it has more 4 more outlets, all with surge protection, vibration damping, a ground-plane noise reduction system, and 24 dB noise reduction in 2 separate zones. Just my 2¢....

[Danny Richie]

I take it we have to pay for shipping back and forth to get them "fixed"

If you send yours in, I will cover the return shipping.

[jbl]

Follow up on the B24 power cords after 3 weeks.  Most of the edginess in the system is gone.  The B24's appear to need a fairly long break in period.  They sound great when new and outperform the B16 by a LARGE margin but with a pronounced edginess especially when connected in series through a line conditioner.  That is almost gone now and I think in another week or two will be a non issue. 

I also brought them over to test on a friend's system consisting of Lumin T2, Modwright tube preamp, and Modwright SS amp with Dynaudio speakers.  Existing power cords(3) were all B16's.  We switched them out to the B24.  BIG improvment.  Bigger sound stage, deeper cleaner bass, increased clarity and separation of instruments. and vocals.  You could hear each distinct note of the instruments and the breathiness in the vocals.  It was a step change in sound.  My friend immediately ordered several to replace all his B16's. 

I highly recommend.  One of the most significant improvements for the least cost I have done.


jbl

[Danny Richie]

Follow up on the B24 power cords after 3 weeks.  Most of the edginess in the system is gone.  The B24's appear to need a fairly long break in period.  They sound great when new and outperform the B16 by a LARGE margin but with a pronounced edginess especially when connected in series through a line conditioner.  That is almost gone now and I think in another week or two will be a non issue. 

I also brought them over to test on a friend's system consisting of Lumin T2, Modwright tube preamp, and Modwright SS amp with Dynaudio speakers.  Existing power cords(3) were all B16's.  We switched them out to the B24.  BIG improvment.  Bigger sound stage, deeper cleaner bass, increased clarity and separation of instruments. and vocals.  You could hear each distinct note of the instruments and the breathiness in the vocals.  It was a step change in sound.  My friend immediately ordered several to replace all his B16's. 

I highly recommend.  One of the most significant improvements for the least cost I have done.


jbl

Thanks for posting that feedback.

[rtate]

So here's a question.
If the power cords are AC filters in a way, if my gear is "off the grid" i.e. battery powered what are the benefits to be had or could I use zip cord with good connectors and achieve the same results ?

[Early B.]

So here's a question.
If the power cords are AC filters in a way, if my gear is "off the grid" i.e. battery powered what are the benefits to be had or could I use zip cord with good connectors and achieve the same results ?

You still need protection from EMI/RFI which pervades your room and is independent of battery power, so shielding is important. Likewise, higher quality connectors, better wire, geometry, metallurgy, etc. of power cords affect sound quality, regardless of being off the grid. 

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Okay, B24 v B16 time!
Sorry for the delay getting to this one, been busy lately with travel, work and other projects.

But first, there have been some changes to my setup.



Current setup us as follows:
Source: Surface Pro 3
DAC: Holo Spring
Pre: Tsakridis Alexander tube preamp
Amp: GR Research GK-10 Battery chip amp
Speakers: GR-Reseach N-3
Subs: 2x Dual 8" servo stands.

Songs are the same as in previous comparisons, but I'll list them here for the comparison.

The test was done by swapping their positions.
B24 started in the DAC, then was swapped with the B16 for the comparison.

Out of the Grey, "Write my life"
The B-16 brings a narrowed soundstage, almost to the point of feeling constraind or vaguely claustrophobic? It's still a big window, but it still feels like a window compared to the B24.  At the end of the song, when her voice moves around the room, it's a smaller circle than the B24 brings to the table.

Out of the Grey, "Wishes '91"
With the B-16, it still has the narrowed ssoundstage, but man the snare in this song was really forward, and not in a good way. It was on my face in a way that I've never heard it before. It was more distracting than anything. (Swapping back later, it was still present, but more subdued.) Upper mids feel more forward, but only the snare cuts through.

Metroid Prime "Tallon Overworld 2"
This soundtrack has a lot of ambiance and scale, and small changes are very noticeable.
You really get the sense of scale with the B24 that feels lacking on the B-16 there's one tone that with the B24 feels like a wave that spills out across the floor. With the B16, that same effect feels blurred and looses it's scale, especially in the decay.  Overall, not as spacious a withs the B24.

Allison Krauss "It Doesn't Matter"
This one is a lot less layered than the previous songs, and it sounds fantastic with either cable, nothing really stood out to me in one way or another. It's more inline with what I expected from this comparison. While fhe others went against that.

Honestly, comparing these two cables was a lot easier than I expected. The smaller soundstage is definitely something i wasn't really expecting, same goes for the really forward snare drums on the 2nd track, and the claustrophobic feel really caught me off guard.

So far, my opinion still stands that the B-24 is best suited for the source/DAC with the B-16 for the rest.

But don't misunstand, the B16 is still a fantastic cable, and would easily beat out with the $300 Audio Art cables and especially the $5 generic power cable I've tested prior.
Both of which had a much smaller sounstage, and in the case of the generic cables, a really forward upper mid/treble that gave me an actual headache. lol

Hope that helps those of you still curious about the comparison between our two powe cord options.

[routlaw]

I've read through this entire thread and while I don't own any GR-Research gear at all I have used for 20 or more years other after market power chords etc. Currently using all PS Audio from previous generations.

There are few post within that do not make sense to me, smaller AWG power chord for Amps, while using larger for DAC's. This is at bare minimum counter intuitive. I have always installed heavier AWG power chords on amps compared to source gear. However I do have 4 dedicated circuits in my room all wired with 6 AWG stranded copper wire with the exception of the source gear which is 10 AWG solid core romex. Suffice it to say working with 6 or 8 AWG wiring is PITA.

Regarding cable reflections: Very true for digital cables and each cable has its own impedance, ie 110 ohm for AES/EBU, Coax @ 75 ohm, and USB @ 90 ohm. If a manufacturer does NOT meet these specs and many do not, reflections regardless of the length will become an issue but the longer the cable within reason those reflections will be minimized if not eliminated. However this is the first I've heard of reflections within speaker cables or power chords but the explanations seem legitimate though this is not the same as digital cable reflections and thus the cable length I am inclined to think is irrelevant other than lower resistance for shorter vs longer runs. Seems like as an apples to oranges technicality.

As a final note from all I can determine the same braided wiring used in the GR-Research speaker cables is the same used in their power chords with an addition of the ground wire buried within. Am I wrong about this? In many ways this makes sense given that both speaker cables and power chords operate in an alternating current state.

Thanks

[Danny Richie]

I've read through this entire thread and while I don't own any GR-Research gear at all I have used for 20 or more years other after market power chords etc. Currently using all PS Audio from previous generations.

There are few post within that do not make sense to me, smaller AWG power chord for Amps, while using larger for DAC's. This is at bare minimum counter intuitive. I have always installed heavier AWG power chords on amps compared to source gear. However I do have 4 dedicated circuits in my room all wired with 6 AWG stranded copper wire with the exception of the source gear which is 10 AWG solid core romex. Suffice it to say working with 6 or 8 AWG wiring is PITA.

Regarding cable reflections: Very true for digital cables and each cable has its own impedance, ie 110 ohm for AES/EBU, Coax @ 75 ohm, and USB @ 90 ohm. If a manufacturer does NOT meet these specs and many do not, reflections regardless of the length will become an issue but the longer the cable within reason those reflections will be minimized if not eliminated. However this is the first I've heard of reflections within speaker cables or power chords but the explanations seem legitimate though this is not the same as digital cable reflections and thus the cable length I am inclined to think is irrelevant other than lower resistance for shorter vs longer runs. Seems like as an apples to oranges technicality.

As a final note from all I can determine the same braided wiring used in the GR-Research speaker cables is the same used in their power chords with an addition of the ground wire buried within. Am I wrong about this? In many ways this makes sense given that both speaker cables and power chords operate in an alternating current state.

Thanks

The B24 has higher noise rejection and will make a bigger difference on front end gear like DAC's.

And the longer the cable the more of a filter it is. So there is greater benefit in having a 6 foot cable verses a 2 or 3 foot cable. The same applies for digital cables.

And the wire used in the power cables is the same wire we use in speaker cables.

[Stephen Scharf]

Okay, B24 v B16 time!
Sorry for the delay getting to this one, been busy lately with travel, work and other projects.

But first, there have been some changes to my setup.



Current setup us as follows:
Source: Surface Pro 3
DAC: Holo Spring
Pre: Tsakridis Alexander tube preamp
Amp: GR Research GK-10 Battery chip amp
Speakers: GR-Reseach N-3
Subs: 2x Dual 8" servo stands.

Songs are the same as in previous comparisons, but I'll list them here for the comparison.

The test was done by swapping their positions.
B24 started in the DAC, then was swapped with the B16 for the comparison.

Out of the Grey, "Write my life"
The B-16 brings a narrowed soundstage, almost to the point of feeling constraind or vaguely claustrophobic? It's still a big window, but it still feels like a window compared to the B24.  At the end of the song, when her voice moves around the room, it's a smaller circle than the B24 brings to the table.

Out of the Grey, "Wishes '91"
With the B-16, it still has the narrowed ssoundstage, but man the snare in this song was really forward, and not in a good way. It was on my face in a way that I've never heard it before. It was more distracting than anything. (Swapping back later, it was still present, but more subdued.) Upper mids feel more forward, but only the snare cuts through.

Metroid Prime "Tallon Overworld 2"
This soundtrack has a lot of ambiance and scale, and small changes are very noticeable.
You really get the sense of scale with the B24 that feels lacking on the B-16 there's one tone that with the B24 feels like a wave that spills out across the floor. With the B16, that same effect feels blurred and looses it's scale, especially in the decay.  Overall, not as spacious a withs the B24.

Allison Krauss "It Doesn't Matter"
This one is a lot less layered than the previous songs, and it sounds fantastic with either cable, nothing really stood out to me in one way or another. It's more inline with what I expected from this comparison. While fhe others went against that.

Honestly, comparing these two cables was a lot easier than I expected. The smaller soundstage is definitely something i wasn't really expecting, same goes for the really forward snare drums on the 2nd track, and the claustrophobic feel really caught me off guard.

So far, my opinion still stands that the B-24 is best suited for the source/DAC with the B-16 for the rest.

But don't misunstand, the B16 is still a fantastic cable, and would easily beat out with the $300 Audio Art cables and especially the $5 generic power cable I've tested prior.
Both of which had a much smaller sounstage, and in the case of the generic cables, a really forward upper mid/treble that gave me an actual headache. lol

Hope that helps those of you still curious about the comparison between our two powe cord options.

Just a tip for you...get a good rack and get that gear off the floor. The vibration that the speakers are putting into the floor from pressurizing the room have a notable impact on sound quality. Vibration causes the presentation to sound unclear, unfocused and blurred and slurred. And carpet is the worst material to put electronic amplification gear on, adding fuzziness and grain. Even an affordable stand from Pangea made of MDF will make a big difference.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Just a tip for you...get a good rack and get that gear off the floor. The vibration that the speakers are putting into the floor from pressurizing the room have a notable impact on sound quality. Vibration causes the presentation to sound unclear, unfocused and blurred and slurred. And carpet is the worst material to put electronic amplification gear on, adding fuzziness and grain. Even an affordable stand from Pangea made of MDF will make a big difference.

Oh I know, I'm working on a proper rack for everything.

Aside from the moniblocks amps, I wasn't using in this test, everything is off of the carpet. There is a box underneath the DAC, then foam blocks for the tube preamp. And just using the rubber feet included with the chip amp.

So not perfect, but it is somewhat isolated from the floor