GR Research Power Cords

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Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #60 on: 31 Jul 2021, 06:01 am »
I don’t remember the various sources I got this from but basically to reduce reflections just use a longer cable.  For example some recommend minimum 8’ for speaker cables.  Coax digital cables should be min 1.5m.  Etc.

Yup, right on the money; a good way to minimize the impact of reflections is to just use a longer cable. And you're correct that digital cables, including USB and Ethernet in addition to coax digital, should be at least 1.5 M long, minimum. This is because digital cables operate at higher bandwidth than analog cables and thus are even more susceptible to reflections.
« Last Edit: 31 Jul 2021, 05:52 pm by Stephen Scharf »

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #61 on: 31 Jul 2021, 06:55 am »
Stephen -
 :thumb:

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #62 on: 31 Jul 2021, 07:02 am »
Here is a quote from Galen Garies on his white paper on audio cables, entitled Time; shown in blue font.

"3.0 VELOCITY OF PROPAGATION ISSUES
The issue – VP varies the arrival time of signals moving down a cable. Signals
should ideally leave and arrive at the same time and shape as they are sent at all
frequencies. Audio is in an electromagnetic transition band. This is the elephant in the room.

It prevents the cable from EVER being perfectly accurate when moving low frequency electromagnetic
waves.

The propagation constant, the speed at which the electromagnetic wave / signal
moves down the wire’s outer circumference, and not IN the wire, is determined by the
dielectric material that the electromagnetic wave is predominantly traveling through. We can
measure this effect directly and indirectly.

At RF, where life is way more consistent for cables, we can calculate the velocity from the
DELAY equation.  For Ethernet cables the following equation is used;
Delay EQUATION at RF:

                                                              (534+36/√f)

The delay equation uses FREQUENCY. This is a TIME based value so it tells us that we
have an arrival time issues as the frequency changes
, and less so at RF, and WAY more so at audio frequencies.

The table illustrates the slow erosion of speed as we reduce the RF frequency. A little change is evident but at audio frequencies see much more change.



Actual data shows what audio cables do; the impedance RISES as we go LOWER in
frequency, by a lot. This is because the DELAY / VP factor drops, and adds TIMING issues
to signal delivery."




Galen adds this comment:

"Look at the low-frequency range. Isn’t cable supposed to be the same at all frequencies or the
same TIME base? The velocity constant at a frequency is TIME, so the fact that we see a difference indicates a non-linearity across the usable audio band. The problem is that thing called propagation velocity (VP) or the speed that information travels at differing frequencies in the cable."


Timing issues are just one of the reasons why we can hear differences in audio cables. Our brains are exquisitely sensitive to timing in music reproduction, which is why high-end audio digital devices e.g., DACs, streamers, Ethernet switches, reclockers, etc., for example, use femto clocks.
I remember the "jitter wars" many years ago when Ed Meitner proved that timing problems, no matter how small, completely robbed digital playback of any sense of reality. The brain's error correction capabilities are staggering.  Even more so us the brain's discrimination of real vs reproduction.

Is it live or is it Memorex.   :rotflmao:

Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #63 on: 31 Jul 2021, 09:45 am »
I remember the "jitter wars" many years ago when Ed Meitner proved that timing problems, no matter how small, completely robbed digital playback of any sense of reality. The brain's error correction capabilities are staggering.  Even more so us the brain's discrimination of real vs reproduction.

Is it live or is it Memorex.   :rotflmao:

Oh, yeah, Ed is a “pioneer” with respect to understanding this domain. One of the greats. He’s on the level of Nelson with respect to domain expertise and knowledge. And, no doubt, just one reason why his digital audio gear is so amazing.  :thumb:

Andreas Hoffman of Playback Design is also very, very knowledgeable, too.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #64 on: 9 Aug 2021, 01:37 am »
Finally got around to doing some AB testing.
I only swapped out the power cord used on the Holo Spring DAC.

Rest of the kit is as follows:
Source: Surface Pro 3 (Mine)
USB: Anticables USB
Interconnects: 1.5' & 3' Electra cables
Pre: Tsakiridis Alexander
Amp: Tsakiridis Apollon "Ultra"
Pre & Amp Power: Audio Art Cable
Speakers: JBL Studio Monitor 4309
Sub: Dual servo stands (Mine)
(Most items I'm borrowing from Ron to help burn things in)


Started off with the B-24 getting some reference points in some songs I'm familiar with.

Yes- South Side of the Sky
Out of the Grey- Write My Life & Wishes '91
Alison Krauss- It Doesn't Matter
Metroid Prime- Tallon Overworld Theme 2
The Doors- Riders On the Storm
Rush- YYZ

B-24: Crisp, detailed with great definition, wide soundstage spatial cues, but natural with rich mids with and a very fluid quality i expect from tube based pre/amps. It's easy to get lost in the music.

Generic cable: VERY forward treble (on the edge of harsh) veiled mids, constrained/narrow soundstage, decent spatial cues, but imaging less well defined. Bass is muddy, esp upper/mid bass as details seem to smear into one another.
I honestly got a headache after about 4-5 songs.. lol

I know it's not a perfect or scientific A/B test, but I was honestly amazed how much more forward the treble on a generic cable was and how quickly it affected my desire to keep listening..

I'm kinda curious to see if "burning in" the generic cable for a few days helps any..  :scratch:

I also want to try swapping the B-24 with the AudioArt power cables in the future that are running the Pre amp.

I also need to build a rack to put things on, and start looking into buying some furniture/room treatment, cuz its definitely a lively bare room still that needs some attention.. lol

Stephen Scharf

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #65 on: 9 Aug 2021, 07:57 am »
Finally got around to doing some AB testing.
I only swapped out the power cord used on the Holo Spring DAC.

Rest of the kit is as follows:
Source: Surface Pro 3 (Mine)
USB: Anticables USB
Interconnects: 1.5' & 3' Electra cables
Pre: Tsakiridis Alexander
Amp: Tsakiridis Apollon "Ultra"
Pre & Amp Power: Audio Art Cable
Speakers: JBL Studio Monitor 4309
Sub: Dual servo stands (Mine)
(Most items I'm borrowing from Ron to help burn things in)
<snip>
B-24: Crisp, detailed with great definition, wide soundstage spatial cues, but natural with rich mids with and a very fluid quality i expect from tube based pre/amps. It's easy to get lost in the music.

Generic cable: VERY forward treble (on the edge of harsh) veiled mids, constrained/narrow soundstage, decent spatial cues, but imaging less well defined. Bass is muddy, esp upper/mid bass as details seem to smear into one another.
I honestly got a headache after about 4-5 songs.. lol

I know it's not a perfect or scientific A/B test, but I was honestly amazed how much more forward the treble on a generic cable was and how quickly it affected my desire to keep listening...
Not at all surprised the B24 sounded better, and in the ways you have described. Good on ya for doing the evaluation.

Quote
I'm kinda curious to see if "burning in" the generic cable for a few days helps any..  :scratch:

Nah...they're always going to sound like sh*t. They also carry RF and EMI, and...allow noise from the component's (e.g. amps and preamps) internal full-wave bridge rectifier power supply to come back out and contaminate the quality of the power of your other components, in particular, your source components, and do all sorts of nasty stuff. It's AC...alternating current. That means it goes...in both directions. You know, alternates.  Not just into the component, but also back out of the component; but now with added noise from the component's power supply. 

I also need to build a rack to put things on, and start looking into buying some furniture/room treatment, cuz its definitely a lively bare room still that needs some attention.. lol

Yeah, a rack will really help. Putting components directly on carpet on the floor is just about the worst thing one can do. It really makes components sound thick (or...thin), dark, and compressed and adds "blur and slur".  Believe it or not, even a rack with shelves made of particle board for shelves can work really well; it turns out that painted or epoxy-coated particle board is an excellent material for damping vibration (and, I've done the vibration tests using Vibsensor, and measured as imparted power, RMS, to know).  All components are sensitive to vibration, but DACs, network bridges, streamers, etc. are particularly sensitive to it (it messes with their crystal oscillators).  The Audio Advisor Pangea racks would be a good start. https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGVULRK

Even putting an amp on a nice maple board on solid wooden footers is a big improvement, as shown in this photo of the Conrad-Johnson ART 150 amp I have in for review, shown resting at lower left on the floor. The key here is to get good mechanical grounding between the component and support. This is why even a hard rock maple board resting on wooden blocks on carpet can work really well.

Since this photo was taken with the ART resting on its stock footers, I've subsequently put the amp on HRS Nimbus couplers and spacers, between the amp and the maple board. Those work really well; highly recommended. Those HRS guys really know what they are doing. If there are budget consraints for the HRS, get the Herbie's Audio Labs Tenderfoot. I've also measured those for attenuating imparted vibration using VibSensor, and they quite work well, also. https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/component-isolation/products/tenderfoot?variant=12643255353399

Oh, another tip, if you use a power distributor, get it off the carpet, as well. You can see my Shunyata Everest to the right of the main rack, on it's own rock maple board resting on Diversitech anti-vibration pads.



Cheers, have fun, and keep us updated. You will likely find that Danny's power cord will sound better over the course of 48 hours as it settles.


newzooreview

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #66 on: 9 Aug 2021, 02:52 pm »
Is the B24 now available?

I don't see it on the GR Research website.

Many thanks.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #67 on: 9 Aug 2021, 05:16 pm »
It should be on the site this week.
Was supposed to be last week, but IT was out of town for a few days.

newzooreview

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #68 on: 9 Aug 2021, 10:17 pm »
It should be on the site this week.
Was supposed to be last week, but IT was out of town for a few days.

Cool, thanks. In one of Danny's videos he said the B24 would have "quite a few other things done to it" compared to the B16. Is that something you could elaborate on, or will it just be in the product description when they make it onto the website.

Many thanks!

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #69 on: 10 Aug 2021, 12:10 am »
Danny should be making a video talking about them here soon.
But I dont really know all the different tweaks yet, tbh.

newzooreview

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #70 on: 10 Aug 2021, 12:13 am »
Thanks again. I appreciate it.

Danny Richie

Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #71 on: 10 Aug 2021, 12:26 pm »
I shot a video on the B24 last night. It will be up later this week.

newzooreview

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #72 on: 10 Aug 2021, 08:40 pm »
Awesome. Looking forward to it.  :thumb:

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #73 on: 10 Aug 2021, 10:00 pm »
The page should be up now :thumb:

77SunsetStrip

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #74 on: 10 Aug 2021, 11:33 pm »
Been through the speaker crossover mods using high quality R, L, and C.  No doubt quality makes a difference, so on board that a power cord of quality materials and construction should perform better than generic 14 or 16 AWG cord.  However, none of my equipment has power receptacles.  The power cords are wired directly to internal switches, filters, transformers, etc.  Suppose a receptacle could be added externally, but would that defeat or dilute the benefits of quality power cable?

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #75 on: 11 Aug 2021, 05:09 am »
Been through the speaker crossover mods using high quality R, L, and C.  No doubt quality makes a difference, so on board that a power cord of quality materials and construction should perform better than generic 14 or 16 AWG cord.  However, none of my equipment has power receptacles.  The power cords are wired directly to internal switches, filters, transformers, etc.  Suppose a receptacle could be added externally, but would that defeat or dilute the benefits of quality power cable?
You can have high quality (Furutech, etc) IEC power inlets installed on your gear.  That will open up the zany, but worthwhile world of power cabling for you.  The Furutech FI-06(G) and FI-06(R)NCF are extremely good ones.  The NCF is really, really good... AFTER it breaks in.  It is rhodium, after all.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #76 on: 11 Aug 2021, 04:03 pm »
You can have high quality (Furutech, etc) IEC power inlets installed on your gear.  That will open up the zany, but worthwhile world of power cabling for you.  The Furutech FI-06(G) and FI-06(R)NCF are extremely good ones.  The NCF is really, really good... AFTER it breaks in.  It is rhodium, after all.

Unfortunately, my SS Amp and Preamp have no space for an internally mounted IEC receptacle.  Both are "vintage" with build quality of a tank.  Tube amp might have space for an IEC receptacle. 

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #77 on: 11 Aug 2021, 09:06 pm »
Unfortunately, my SS Amp and Preamp have no space for an internally mounted IEC receptacle.  Both are "vintage" with build quality of a tank.  Tube amp might have space for an IEC receptacle.
OK.  I get this.  Too bad, though.  Having an IEC is one of those advantages of modern gear.  That and newer electrolytics :)

77SunsetStrip

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #78 on: 11 Aug 2021, 11:20 pm »
OK.  I get this.  Too bad, though.  Having an IEC is one of those advantages of modern gear.  That and newer electrolytics :)!

All the electrolytics have been replaced, good for another 20 years.  Modern electronics don't offer any better performance specs.  If it ain't broke, . . . .

Cheytak.408

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Re: GR Research Power Cords
« Reply #79 on: 12 Aug 2021, 02:13 am »
All the electrolytics have been replaced, good for another 20 years.  Modern electronics don't offer any better performance specs.  If it ain't broke, . . . .
Yeah, it is all about not being old here.

Perhaps I missed it, but what gear are you using?