AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: newzooreview on 28 Jul 2021, 06:38 pm

Title: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: newzooreview on 28 Jul 2021, 06:38 pm
I have a B16 power cable arriving today, and I have a couple of questions for anyone who might have experience with them.

1. Do you find they are better suited to source components vs. amps?

2. Does anyone know if the B24 version of the GR Research power cords are going to be available soon? Would it be better to wait for those for use on a 200 watt/channel (into 8 Ohms) amp?

I ask because access to and re-cabling in my system is not trivial, and GR recommends a 200-hour break in, so experimenting down a sub-optimal path is a time sink.

Any insight appreciated!  :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 28 Jul 2021, 08:48 pm
1. Do you find they are better suited to source components vs. amps?

I believe the idea behind power cords being suited for specific components is more of a marketing strategy (i.e., "high current" power cords for amps because they use thicker gauge wire). A simpler solution is to place the power cords on the components where they sound best, and only trial & error can tell you where to put them.   
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 28 Jul 2021, 09:09 pm
Cables are a tricky business. I absolutely believe that higher quality copper as well as the strand configuration of the cable (such as the braided cables in the GR power cable and speaker cables) can and do make a difference. What I can't and don't believe can make a difference is using a massive gauge wire in your power cord, when the wire going ALL the way back to your breaker panel are, (in most cases), at best 12 gauge and often only 14 gauge. I don't have actual numbers on equivalent gauges, but in working with the 16 strand cable I believe you end up with at least 12 gauge, but it appears to be closer to 10 gauge. I don't see how the 24 strand cable can improve anything. I have a high quality cable going into a PI Audio Digibuss, and then high quality cable going out to my components. If you open up a line conditioner, the wires they use are anemic - even with a very expensive and very well regarded product like the PI Audio. Some things about cables are mystifying, but I just don't see how there could be an improvement with the 24 stranded version.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 28 Jul 2021, 09:39 pm
Full disclosure -- I have several GR Research power cords (1 more arriving tomorrow) and they're really good, especially for the money.

It's very difficult to predict what a power cord will sound like in YOUR system based on its features. You just gotta spend some years experimenting until you arrive at a point where you ask yourself, "what's the point?".
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: newzooreview on 28 Jul 2021, 09:40 pm
Thanks to you both. I assumed that trying them would be the only way, but figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 29 Jul 2021, 12:25 am
B24 cables should be launching sometime early next week.

I have one of the B24 cables Ron borrowed from us with a Holo Spring DAC, tube preamp & some massive Tube monoblocks & a pair of JBL studio monitors. While he's borrowing my X Statiks.

According to Ron, It takes about 80-90 hours for the cable to burn in. When they're fresh, they tend to lead to a bit of a harshness in guitars and female vocals, after about 80hrs they tend to really mellow out

An industry guy came by this weekend and they did a shootout with some crazy expensive power cords (something like $8000-10,000) they both agreed that our B24 was better.

I haven't personally done any AB tests yet, as the preamp and amp are still really fresh  and only have about 100 hrs on them and Everything sounds amazing, aside from some really weak bass output below 80Hz, even running the servo sub stands at 75% volume.. but im not sure if thats the DAC, preamp, or something else being the problem.. swapping interconnects seems to have no affect. Might try power cords soon tho...  :scratch:

That said, I've been hearing things in this system I've never heard before, but I dunno if it's any one component, or all of them together thats leading to the differences.

But I'm excited to do some of that this weekend most likely.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: DannyBadorine on 29 Jul 2021, 01:52 am
How can a power cable change the sound when they're all plugged into such cheap power cable in the wall?  Does anybody have any real science on this?  I'm totally open to it but I'm definitely skeptical.  I just think that as long as your IEC cable is at least as good of quality as what's in the wall then there's no way to improve on that.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 29 Jul 2021, 02:55 am
How can a power cable change the sound when they're all plugged into such cheap power cable in the wall?  Does anybody have any real science on this?  I'm totally open to it but I'm definitely skeptical.  I just think that as long as your IEC cable is at least as good of quality as what's in the wall then there's no way to improve on that.

Many of us were initially skeptical about power cords, but try it and trust your ears. If you're not willing to experiment, that's OK, too. Just know that most audiophiles don't use stock power cords, and for good reason. Of course, this thread isn't the place to discuss the merits of power cords. If you want to learn more, there's a million previous threads, videos, articles, and heated debates on this issue that you can enjoy at your leisure.

 
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: RonP on 29 Jul 2021, 01:29 pm
Many of us were initially skeptical about power cords, but try it and trust your ears.
 
+1

not sure how it works, but the before and after difference has been very clear in my system for each power cord I upgraded.

I started with a $99 power cord from signal cable before these from Danny were available. It was an acceptable experiment for me .. 100 smackers... I noticed the difference. I've moved on since then to more expensive cords for better gains. That cable is in a box somewhere upstairs  :D
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: newzooreview on 29 Jul 2021, 03:08 pm
B24 cables should be launching sometime early next week…

I've been hearing things in this system I've never heard before…


Thanks for the news on the B24 cable. Maybe I need to rearrange the components so that I can compare more easily.

My vote is for the Holo May DAC as the reason for the new things you're hearing. I have the Holo May KTE edition DAC (the same that Ron reviewed), and the new and natural resolution coming though have been amazing. I was coming from a Benchmark DAC3 (not a DAC designed to soften any details). The Holo May definitely sounded best after 400 hours of break-in. Deep bass was an area that fluctuated during break in but never wavered afterward. I found that running the full, slow frequency sweeps (like the one on the Ayre break-in disk or some others) was beneficial.

Happy listening!  :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 29 Jul 2021, 03:48 pm
I have one of the B24 cables Ron borrowed from us with a Holo Spring DAC, tube preamp & some massive Tube monoblocks & a pair of JBL studio monitors. While he's borrowing my X Statiks.

Hobbs -- do you plan to compare the B16 with the B24 and post your impressions?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: mlundy57 on 29 Jul 2021, 04:15 pm
How can a power cable change the sound when they're all plugged into such cheap power cable in the wall?  Does anybody have any real science on this?  I'm totally open to it but I'm definitely skeptical.  I just think that as long as your IEC cable is at least as good of quality as what's in the wall then there's no way to improve on that.

Early B. is spot on. The issue with this question is the same as for quality level of crossover components. What is presented as science is based on the assumption  that if something measures the same it must sound the same. The problem with this approach is the question under consideration is not whether there are measurable differences but whether there are audible differences. This is a sensory issue like taste.

The science that studies sensory perception is it's own field with it's own methodologies which are way more complex than a simple A/B test and need to be to control all the variables involved. I've studied this field and, as a dietitian/nutritionist, have been involved in sensory experiments on different qualities of food and how people perceive them. To do this type of research properly is very time consuming and expensive. Before a company expends the type of resources required, they have to determine if the results will increase sales enough to justify the cost. This is referred to as applied science.

In the case of audio, the answer is no. It doesn't matter rigorous the experiments are or what results are found. They will not change anyone's mind. People who are convinced there can't be any difference will be even more sure they are right while people who are willing to try and make their decision for themselves based on their experience will still do so. If they feel there is a difference worth the cost they will buy the item in question. If not, they won't.

In addition to applied science, there is basic science. Basic science seeks to answer questions for the sake of the knowledge and not for a direct profit motive. Basic science is usually funded through grants which can be private or public (tax dollars). Either way, somebody has to pony up the money to conduct the studies. The naysayers will take the stand it is on the industry to pony up and prove their claims. Which, as mentioned earlier, they will never be able to do to the satisfaction of the naysayers nor will they recoup their investment. The industry will say it's the naysayers responsibility to prove their claim that there is no difference. Which they won't do and, just as with industry, people outside their camp won't believe their results either.

So where does that leave us? Right back where we started. If you don't believe there can possibly be any difference, don't buy the product(s). If you think there might be something to a claim, listen for yourself on your own equipment. If you think there is a difference worth the price to you, keep the product. If not, send it back. It's like the old saying goes, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", or in this case, in the listening.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 29 Jul 2021, 05:10 pm
Hobbs - I'd also be interested in a comparison between the B16 and B24. I suggested in a previous post that I doubt there could be a significant difference between the B16 and the B24 and I'll stand by that. However, I learned long ago that when it comes to audio things don't always make intuitive sense. Here's my sort of explanation for why the quality of cables can matter in the last few feet and why I believe that the size of the cable doesn't matter (so long as everything is at least the gauge of the wire feeding the outlet).

Electricity in a wire can be broadly associated with a flowing liquid in a pipe. A water supply can have very turbulent flow (noisy electrical connection in your wall from your breaker panel) and transition to smooth laminar flow if the pipe is smooth and straight (a high quality power cable). Furthermore, with the GR power cable, the braided construction may help with filtering as Danny has talked about with his speaker cables. Going back to the liquid analogy, you can't increase the output flow of a long pipe by increasing the diameter the last few feet - which is why I'm skeptical of the larger power cable being better. However, the same analogy opens the door for that to be a possibility. The calculation for whether a fluid will have laminar flow is related to the Reynold's number - a calculation which involves cross sectional area. It could be that the larger power cable, while not increasing flow, could allow for a smoother passage of electrons (less resistance) and equal better sound. Still, as I said the B16 cable is already a pretty large gauge cable - almost certainly larger than you'd find in any normal home wiring. I'd definitely be interested to hear the 2 side by side.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 29 Jul 2021, 11:28 pm
Hobbs -- do you plan to compare the B16 with the B24 and post your impressions?

Unfortunately, I don't have a B-16 on hand to test, at least not at the moment.
I have your typical power cords that come with most electronics, a prototype that was made before the B-16 (its basically a B-4.. lol) and a B24 that Ron handed me.

That said, I'll see what sort of differences I pick up on sometime this weekend when i have a few hours to just sit & listen.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 29 Jul 2021, 11:41 pm
I have a B16 power cable arriving today, and I have a couple of questions for anyone who might have experience with them.

1. Do you find they are better suited to source components vs. amps?

All components benefit from better-quality "audio-grade" power cords, both source component, preamps and amps. You are better off using a less-expensive aftermarket audio-grade power cord on all the components in your system than spending more money on a single more expensive power cord, and only putting that on one component, and using generic black power cords on all the rest.

2. Does anyone know if the B24 version of the GR Research power cords are going to be available soon? Would it be better to wait for those for use on a 200 watt/channel (into 8 Ohms) amp?
Yes.  You want to use a "larger gauge" (smaller AWG number) on higher-current components.

The reason is because amplifiers require more current, sometimes "instaneously" than source components. The key attribute here is what is referred to as dynamic transient current delivery.

Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 29 Jul 2021, 11:50 pm
I believe the idea behind power cords being suited for specific components is more of a marketing strategy (i.e., "high current" power cords for amps because they use thicker gauge wire). A simpler solution is to place the power cords on the components where they sound best, and only trial & error can tell you where to put them.

That is incorrect. High-current components benefit from using higher-gauge (lower AWG number e.g. 12, 10 or 8 AWG) power cords as opposed to generic black power cords (which are generally 16 AWG). This is so they can provide more instantaneous current when the component's power supply pulls hard on the AC mains during dynamic transients, which causes reactance on the power cord, and which actually results in less current being delivered, when it is most needed, than what would be delivered during less dynamic passages. The reactance also causes the current to be out of phase with the electromotive force (aka "voltage") that  causes it.

Reactance Def: "Reactance, in electricity, measure of the opposition that a circuit or a part of a circuit presents to electric current insofar as the current is varying or alternating."
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 12:02 am
Full disclosure -- I have several GR Research power cords (1 more arriving tomorrow) and they're really good, especially for the money.

It's very difficult to predict what a power cord will sound like in YOUR system based on its features. You just gotta spend some years experimenting until you arrive at a point where you ask yourself, "what's the point?".

I agree with your general point, and I am confident that the GR Research power cords provide excellent performance for their price, but I respectfully disagree that one should arrive at a point after years of experiment, where you ask yourself "what's the point?"

The sonic benefits for well-designed and manufactured audio-grade power cords are, in my >10 years experience with many of them from different manufacturers, are clear, uambiguous, and unequivocal. As I mentioned to the OP, one will obtain a higher overall, i.e., system-level, performance by spending somewhat less on an audio-grade power and using that "budget" in putting them on ALL components, rather than putting the same amount of money on a single, more expensive, power cord, and only putting it on 1 component. 

Example: If you have, for example, a budget of $1000, you are better off putting 4 $250 audio-grade power cords on 4 components in your system, than the entire $1000 on a more expensive PC and only putting it on, for example, the power amp.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 12:22 am
Cables are a tricky business. I absolutely believe that higher quality copper as well as the strand configuration of the cable (such as the braided cables in the GR power cable and speaker cables) can and do make a difference. What I can't and don't believe can make a difference is using a massive gauge wire in your power cord, when the wire going ALL the way back to your breaker panel are, (in most cases), at best 12 gauge and often only 14 gauge. I don't have actual numbers on equivalent gauges, but in working with the 16 strand cable I believe you end up with at least 12 gauge, but it appears to be closer to 10 gauge. I don't see how the 24 strand cable can improve anything. I have a high quality cable going into a PI Audio Digibuss, and then high quality cable going out to my components. If you open up a line conditioner, the wires they use are anemic - even with a very expensive and very well regarded product like the PI Audio. Some things about cables are mystifying, but I just don't see how there could be an improvement with the 24 stranded version.

The 24 strand version provides a greater instantaneous current delivery during transients and dynamic passages. The reason is this important is because on smaller gauge (i.e. generic black power cords) are significanty impacted by the reactance that occurs in them when the component's power supply pulls hard on the AC mains. This actually causes less current to be delivered. A larger-gauge power cord is significantly less impacted by the reactance than a smaller gauge PC.

Further, I would not generalize about the wires utilized inside a line conditioner by opening up a small sample N of 1 or 2. One cannot draw statistically valid inferences for attribute data from small sample Ns.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 12:27 am
How can a power cable change the sound when they're all plugged into such cheap power cable in the wall?  Does anybody have any real science on this?  I'm totally open to it but I'm definitely skeptical.  I just think that as long as your IEC cable is at least as good of quality as what's in the wall then there's no way to improve on that.

Read this: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/ (https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/)
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 30 Jul 2021, 12:31 am
Concerning Subsonic's comment about power conditioner's internal wiring being "anemic".  Are you talking about wiring to each receptacle or outlet?  If so, you need to consider the aggregate total.  i.e - 4 x 14ga wires is an aggregate of 8ga.  It will take an 8ga cable to provide the total current handling of the receptacles or outlets.

Also, chassis wiring current ratings are different than power transmission.  14ga wire is rated for 32A in chassis wiring applications.  The 14ga wire used in house wiring for 15A circuits is only rated at 5.9A for power transmission.  It is all about average current demands.  Appearances can be deceiving.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 12:40 am

An industry guy came by this weekend and they did a shootout with some crazy expensive power cords (something like $8000-10,000) they both agreed that our B24 was better.

The problem with the demo that was run was that the power cable you're referring was that it was not a properly controlled experiment. The cable you're referring to had just been transported in a motor vehicle from Utah and did not have sufficient time to settle. Vibration from transporting a power cable in a vehicle induces triboelectric noise into the dieletric, which impacts the cable performance and the impact of this is quite audible.  Further, one cannot determine which PC is better simply doing a quick "A/B" swap. In order to do a proper comparison between  power cords there needs to allow sufficient time for the power cord to fully settle fully, which takes 48-72 hours. If one is going to do an A/B comparison, the demo needs to be set up in a scientifically controlled manner with two identical systems so that one can compare the use of the two different power cords as the only difference between the two system, without, and this is the key point, one power cable having to be swapped out for the other. Otherwise, if one power cord is swapped out for the other, more vibration is being put into the power cord being installed, and it will again require time to fully settle.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 30 Jul 2021, 01:15 am
I'm just reporting what I was told by Danny.  :P
I was busy working in the shop cleaning, answering emails and duratexing woofers while those comparisons were happening.

So I can't say for certain if you're right or not, and that's fine, I'm not one to argue.
I'm just learning as I go, tbh. :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 01:34 am
I'm just reporting what I was told by Danny.  :P
I was busy working in the shop cleaning, answering emails and duratexing woofers while those comparisons were happening.

So I can't say for certain if you're right or not, and that's fine, I'm not one to argue.
I'm just learning as I go, tbh. :thumb:

No worries. My only aim here is to convey maximally accurate information so that potential buyers can make informed decisions about what constitutes value propositions when it comes to products like power cables.

My personal view is if folks are interested in considering power cables from Danny, they should go ahead and buy them; as they represent an excellent value for money. From my >10 year experience with audio-grade power cables, in my view, they are the single most important cable in a stereo system.

Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: DannyBadorine on 30 Jul 2021, 02:23 am
Read this: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/ (https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/)

I appreciate this.  I read it.  I'm still somewhat skeptical as I think the placebo effect is more powerful than anything else, but I will be trying some different power cables on my mixing console when I go back out on tour in September.  If they actually work then a $100k mixing console with 96 inputs, 24 outputs, running at 96k/24 bit sampling will show me the difference.  I'm open to it.  I will test them with several top audio engineers in the live concert business and see what they hear.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 30 Jul 2021, 02:47 am
From my >10 year experience with audio-grade power cables, in my view, they are the single most important cable in a stereo system.

Report back in 10 more years and you'll have two things -- 20 years of experience and a different opinion.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 03:42 am
Report back in 10 more years and you'll have two things -- 20 years of experience and a different opinion.

Nope...10 years experience tells me what I need to know. The physics of why they matter won't have changed, either.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 03:48 am
I appreciate this.  I read it.  I'm still somewhat skeptical as I think the placebo effect is more powerful than anything else, but I will be trying some different power cables on my mixing console when I go back out on tour in September.  If they actually work then a $100k mixing console with 96 inputs, 24 outputs, running at 96k/24 bit sampling will show me the difference.  I'm open to it.  I will test them with several top audio engineers in the live concert business and see what they hear.

Cool. Let us know what you find out.

BTW, If you know mastering engineers Rick Rubin, Peter McGrath, Vlado Meller of Sony Music, USA, or Clayton Wood of Skywalker sound, by any chance, ask 'em what they think of audio-grade power cables.

Cheers.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: DannyBadorine on 30 Jul 2021, 04:09 am
Cool. Let us know what you find out.

BTW, If you know mastering engineers Rick Rubin, Peter McGrath, Vlado Meller of Sony Music, USA, or Clayton Wood of Skywalker sound, by any chance, ask 'em what they think of audio-grade power cables.

Cheers.

I will report back.  FYI- I am a live sound engineer and don't know those guys, but I am around studios from time to time and I will see if anybody is using them.  I have never noticed it or asked and most live engineers I know will think that it's crazy to use expensive power cables, but I also don't know any of them who have tried it. 
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 04:18 am
 
I will report back.  FYI- I am a live sound engineer and don't know those guys, but I am around studios from time to time and I will see if anybody is using them.  I have never noticed it or asked and most live engineers I know will think that it's crazy to use expensive power cables, but I also don't know any of them who have tried it.
Cool.
😎
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 30 Jul 2021, 04:34 am
Nope...10 years experience tells me what I need to know.

Only 10 years???? You're just getting started. Read this thread: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=170477.0

Some of the guys (and a gal) on this forum began their audiophile journey in the 60's and 70's.         
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 30 Jul 2021, 04:43 am
I will report back.  FYI- I am a live sound engineer and don't know those guys, but I am around studios from time to time and I will see if anybody is using them.  I have never noticed it or asked and most live engineers I know will think that it's crazy to use expensive power cables, but I also don't know any of them who have tried it.
Here is Michael Rhodes on cables for bass players:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpbSjCuKk4w

Bernie Grundman has been using custom cabling to custom power supplies for years.

Bob Clearmountain

Sterling Sound

Also, ask these guys:

Dave Gilmore's Astoria recording studio. Michael Zimmerling (recording engineer for Simply Red) and recording engineer/producer Ken Nelson (Gomez, Coldplay).

And Russ Andrews - Hi-Fi mains and cable specialist

And then there is Alan Parsons and a few other Brits that are squeaking all they can out of idiots gear in the studios.  Oh, and Tim de Paravincini (RIP) and...



Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 04:45 am
I started in 1976, just out of University, so I am definitely not a newbie.

Specifically, I've been enjoying the benefits of audio-grade power cords since 2009. Danny is 100% correct, they bring a notable improvement in audio systems. His power cords are well-designed, well-manufactured and affordable, so they are quite a good value proposition. Folks can try them in their systems and hear the improvements for themselves.  :thumb:

They will also demonstrably improve the quality of video in home theatre systems, too.

Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 04:48 am
Here is Michael Rhodes on cables for bass players:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpbSjCuKk4w

Bernie Grundman has been using custom cabling to custom power supplies for years.

Also, ask these guys:

Dave Gilmore's Astoria recording studio. Michael Zimmerling (recording engineer for Simply Red) and recording engineer/producer Ken Nelson (Gomez, Coldplay).

And Russ Andrews - Hi-Fi mains and cable specialist

Exactamundo. I was going to reference Astoria Studios but was not sure if folks in the USA knew of them. Also Phil Taylor and Andy Jackson, also at Astoria, use aftermarket PCs specifically designed for audio applications. Sony Music Japan does, too.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 30 Jul 2021, 04:55 am
Exactamundo. I was going to reference Astoria Studios but was not sure if folks in the USA knew of them. Also Phil Taylor and Andy Jackson, also at Astoria, use aftermarket PCs specifically designed for audio applications. Sony Music Japan does, too.
I dug through my records and listed a few more, too.  The guys at the top get it.

I forgot Peter Gabriel's Real World, too.

There is Jan Lusczczek at Clair Brothers that swears by console cable upgrades.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 30 Jul 2021, 04:56 am
Nope...10 years experience tells me what I need to know. The physics of why they matter won't have changed, either.

In months of hanging out on this forum I've never once come across someone who has been anything other than helpful and friendly. Personally, I really enjoy that atmosphere and don't want to sully it by going down a different avenue - but it sure is tempting.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 05:00 am
I dug through my records and listed a few more, too.  The guys at the top get it.

Oh, yeah...they wouldn't be the top if they didn't. Just like Danny, they're the real deal, and know what's what.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 30 Jul 2021, 05:06 am

I dug through my records and listed a few more, too.  The guys at the top get it.

I forgot Peter Gabriel's Real World, too.

There was Jan Lusczczek at Clair Brothers that swears by console cable upgrades
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 05:32 am
Concerning Subsonic's comment about power conditioner's internal wiring being "anemic".  Are you talking about wiring to each receptacle or outlet?  If so, you need to consider the aggregate total.  i.e - 4 x 14ga wires is an aggregate of 8ga.  It will take an 8ga cable to provide the total current handling of the receptacles or outlets.

Also, chassis wiring current ratings are different than power transmission.  14ga wire is rated for 32A in chassis wiring applications.  The 14ga wire used in house wiring for 15A circuits is only rated at 5.9A for power transmission.  It is all about average current demands.  Appearances can be deceiving.

Bingo. Good post. Accurate.  :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 05:34 am
I dug through my records and listed a few more, too.  The guys at the top get it.

I forgot Peter Gabriel's Real World, too.

There was Jan Lusczczek at Clair Brothers that swears by console cable upgrades

The Vienna Philharmonic uses them too, for mastering their classical recordings, as well as Steve Epstein, who has won 6 Grammys for classical recordings.

And then there's Doug Sax and James Guthrie. So,...yeah.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 30 Jul 2021, 06:17 am
Bingo. Good post. Accurate.  :thumb:

That would be assuming that every device plugged into the line conditioner would be drawing the same amount of power. You could easily have 2 powerful amps plugged into one receptacle while you have extremely low power devices (DAC, streamer, turntable, etc) plugged into other receptacles.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 30 Jul 2021, 05:11 pm
That would be assuming that every device plugged into the line conditioner would be drawing the same amount of power. You could easily have 2 powerful amps plugged into one receptacle while you have extremely low power devices (DAC, streamer, turntable, etc) plugged into other receptacles.
Once again: 14ga in a short chassis wiring run = 32A. Even 12ga 20A house wiring circuits are only rated for transmission at 9.3A.  It is the balance of resistance based power loss and heating that drive the ratings and capabilities.  A 1' long piece of 14ga wire has a resistance of 0.0025 ohms.  12ga - 0.0016 ohms.  That difference of 0.0009 ohms doesn't mean very much in application.

If you closely examine printed circuit boards in a lot of very expensive commercial power filtration products the power traces are much smaller than the hard wiring in some others.  It is all about what is necessary to carry the necessary current for the anticipated applications.  This is one of the reasons that many amplifier manufacturers recommend not using conditioners with their amps.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: 77SunsetStrip on 30 Jul 2021, 06:19 pm
Galen Gareis, retired Belden engineer, designed the best possible signal conductor (speaker cables) based 100% on science.  Accuracy of signal transmission, nothing added - nothing removed, was the primary goal. The math, science, and physics involved are undeniable proof that signal transmission in wire is not simple nor identical between different configurations or material.   

A similar purely scientific approach can be applied to produce the best possible power cable.  The user is left to decide if there is audible difference.       
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 08:40 pm
That would be assuming that every device plugged into the line conditioner would be drawing the same amount of power. You could easily have 2 powerful amps plugged into one receptacle while you have extremely low power devices (DAC, streamer, turntable, etc) plugged into other receptacles.

It depends on the design and engineering in the power distributor. The power distributor I use has 4 sets X 2 (duplex) AC receptacles each, for a total of 8 receptacles. Each individual receptacle within the duplex will deliver the specified rated power of the distributor.

Once again: 14ga in a short chassis wiring run = 32A. Even 12ga 20A house wiring circuits are only rated for transmission at 9.3A.  It is the balance of resistance based power loss and heating that drive the ratings and capabilities.  A 1' long piece of 14ga wire has a resistance of 0.0025 ohms.  12ga - 0.0016 ohms.  That difference of 0.0009 ohms doesn't mean very much in application.

If you closely examine printed circuit boards in a lot of very expensive commercial power filtration products the power traces are much smaller than the hard wiring in some others.  It is all about what is necessary to carry the necessary current for the anticipated applications.  This is one of the reasons that many amplifier manufacturers recommend not using conditioners with their amps.

Good post, Cheytak. You're correct that many amp manufacturers recommend not using power conditioners for their amps because many of these use chokes, inductors, or coils to reduce noise from the AC mains. But, using power distributors/conditioners with these classes of components to reduce AC noise with amps more often than not will also reduce dynamic transient current delivery as well as well as making them sound dark, compressed, and lifeless without good transient response and immediacy. When using a system with these types of line conditioners, I'd agree it's best practice to go straight to the wall for amps. 

I'll  add, though, there are high-end power distributors that can reduce noise components on the AC mains without utilizing chokes, inductors, or coils (you can probably surmise whom I'm referring to here) and thus are fully capable of delivering the necessary current for their respective applications, including amplifers and NOT have them sound dark, compressed, lifeless, and lacking in dynamics, transient response, and immediacy.
Cheers, mate.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: rtate on 30 Jul 2021, 09:13 pm
I'm not so sure about the "instantaneous current " demand statements .
The current demand by any device would be limited by the smallest wire gauge in the line. i.e. the 14 gauge wire from the breaker panel to the receptacle.
If all contact points are good meaning the receptacles then all the power cord can do is filter, or reduce noise in the AC.
Back to the water analogy if you have a 6 inch supply hose and a 1/2 inch nozzle at the end you can only get what the 1/2 inch nozzle can supply. Conversely is you have a 14 gauge wire supplying a 10 gauge power cord you are limited to what current the 14 gauge wire can supply. That's just physics.
Having said this I do believe power cords make a difference by reducing noise, not by supplying more current.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 09:22 pm
Galen Gareis, retired Belden engineer, designed the best possible signal conductor (speaker cables) based 100% on science.  Accuracy of signal transmission, nothing added - nothing removed, was the primary goal. The math, science, and physics involved are undeniable proof that signal transmission in wire is not simple nor identical between different configurations or material.     

Yep, Galen is a solid engineer and his cable designs are based on sound engineering principles. He's published a series of white papers on important aspects of cable design and the information in these is accurate and informative.

Something that his speaker cables don't address, though, is the impact of "reflections" of the EM wave that propogates along the cable which carries the signal.

I'll just digress for a moment here. Many folks think that in a signal cable, e.g. a speaker cable, that current is carried by electrons in the conductor material much like water flowing through a hose or marbles rolling in a tube, etc. This is not the case at all. The signal is carried by a hypotrochoid EM wave that propogates along the conductor. This Vp, propogation velocity is different for different frequencies. This means that signals at different frequencies, which is what we have in audio applications for reproducing music, will propogate at different velocities at and will arrive at the end of the cable...at different times. Moreover, these EM waves can reflect back along the conductor and interact with the EM wave coming "downstream", and much like water waves in a pool, cause summations (a higher peak wave) and cancellations (a null, or lower-peak  wave) of the EM wave which will impact the both the timing and the quality of signal from the source. These EM wave "reflections" are measurable using a time-domain reflectometer, and, importantly, the effect of them is audible, including their impact on timing.

Note: If folks want to read Galen's white papers, send me a PM and I will send a link to them. I don't want to derail the discussion by posting active links to other manufacturers in this thread.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Jul 2021, 09:24 pm
I'm not so sure about the "instantaneous current " demand statements .
The current demand by any device would be limited by the smallest wire gauge in the line. i.e. the 14 gauge wire from the breaker panel to the receptacle.
If all contact points are good meaning the receptacles then all the power cord can do is filter, or reduce noise in the AC.
Back to the water analogy if you have a 6 inch supply hose and a 1/2 inch nozzle at the end you can only get what the 1/2 inch nozzle can supply. Conversely is you have a 14 gauge wire supplying a 10 gauge power cord you are limited to what current the 14 gauge wire can supply. That's just physics.
Having said this I do believe power cords make a difference by reducing noise, not by supplying more current.

No, sorry, it is not like water flowing through a hose. It is an EM wave that propogates along the conductor.

While both capabilities, current delivery and noise reduction are important, the ability of a power cord to deliver current is the more important functional attribute, more so than reducing noise. Power cables that deliver noise reduction at the expense of dynamic transient current delivery can be "quiet", but they sound dull and lifeless in listening tests compared to power cords that provide maximal dynamic transient current delivery. Moreover, dynamic transient current delivery is measurable; if you would like a reference documenting this, send me a PM, and I will provide you with a link to a white paper with data.

Moreover, the geometry of the conductors in the cable construction also have a very significant impact on the ability of the power cable to deliver dynamic transient current.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: jbl on 30 Jul 2021, 10:21 pm
Does this mean a shorter power cord could offer better sound since the resistance to instantaneous current would be less traveling a shorter distance?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: corndog71 on 30 Jul 2021, 10:39 pm
I don’t remember the various sources I got this from but basically to reduce reflections just use a longer cable.  For example some recommend minimum 8’ for speaker cables.  Coax digital cables should be min 1.5m.  Etc.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 30 Jul 2021, 11:08 pm
No, sorry, it is not like water flowing through a hose. It is an EM wave that propogates along the conductor.

While both capabilities, current delivery and noise reduction are important, the ability of a power cord to deliver current is the more important functional attribute, more so than reducing noise. Power cables that deliver noise reduction at the expense of dynamic transient current delivery can be "quiet", but they sound dull and lifeless in listening tests compared to power cords that provide maximal dynamic transient current delivery. Moreover, dynamic transient current delivery is measurable; if you would like a reference documenting this, send me a PM, and I will provide you with a link to a white paper with data.

Moreover, the geometry of the conductors in the cable construction also have a very significant impact on the ability of the power cable to deliver dynamic transient current.

Yes, it IS like water flowing through a pipe. This is not some off the cuff analogy - this is an analogy used by many educational institutions to teach basic electronics in an effort to help visualize and understand the flow of electricity. Like any analogy, it of course has its limitations - but it IS very similar.

Frankly, I'm really tired of you. I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from responding to any of my posts and I'll certainly refrain from engaging with you any further. Have a good day.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 31 Jul 2021, 12:22 am
Yes, it IS like water flowing through a pipe. This is not some off the cuff analogy - this is an analogy used by many educational institutions to teach basic electronics in an effort to help visualize and understand the flow of electricity. Like any analogy, it of course has its limitations - but it IS very similar.

Frankly, I'm really tired of you. I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from responding to any of my posts and I'll certainly refrain from engaging with you any further. Have a good day.
That analogy is used to make a general statement.  The electron flow concept of current was disproven many years ago.  It is actually an electromagnetic wave that does the work.  Electrons do not "flow" like water, but actually are nudged into each other.  This is called electron drift.  Drift velocity, the average speed at which electrons travel in a conductor when subjected to an electric field, is about 1mm per second.  It’s the electromagnetic wave rippling through the electrons that propagates at close to the speed of light.  The dimensions of the wire and electrical properties like its inductance affect the exact propagation speed, but usually it will be around 90 per cent of the speed of light – about 270,000 km/s.  The speed at which 120 VAC 60 Hz current flows is actually quite slow:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/electron-drift-velocity-problem.707975/
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 31 Jul 2021, 12:23 am
Duplicate post... my bad!
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 31 Jul 2021, 12:57 am
That analogy is used to make a general statement.  The electron flow concept of current was disproven many years ago.  It is actually an electromagnetic wave that does the work.  Electrons do not "flow" like water, but actually are nudged into each other.  This is called electron drift.  Drift velocity, the average speed at which electrons travel in a conductor when subjected to an electric field, is about 1mm per second.  It’s the electromagnetic wave rippling through the electrons that propagates at close to the speed of light.  The dimensions of the wire and electrical properties like its inductance affect the exact propagation speed, but usually it will be around 90 per cent of the speed of light – about 270,000 km/s.  The speed at which 120 VAC 60 Hz current flows is actually quite slow:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/electron-drift-velocity-problem.707975/

Cheytak- I fully accept that the analogy doesn't hold up when looking at the intricacies of electron transmission. It is however commonly used to illustrate the general idea of electrical flow, going so far as to include concepts like amperage, voltage, resistance, etc. You clearly have an understanding of electronics beyond my own knowledge and I appreciate the insight you can bring. I am however, tired of snarky and patronizing posts claiming to *know* exactly why and how cables impart different sonic characteristics. The fact is that we don't know for sure - there are experts in electrical transmission who say that differences in speaker cables do not matter so long as the resistance, capacitance and inductance measurements are the same or similar. Real world listening reveals that simply isn't the case. You have been respectful and knowledgeable and I thank you for your input. Also, by the way, the 408 is probably my favorite round of all time - despite the fact I've never fired a single round myself.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 31 Jul 2021, 02:48 am
Cheytak- I fully accept that the analogy doesn't hold up when looking at the intricacies of electron transmission. It is however commonly used to illustrate the general idea of electrical flow, going so far as to include concepts like amperage, voltage, resistance, etc. You clearly have an understanding of electronics beyond my own knowledge and I appreciate the insight you can bring. I am however, tired of snarky and patronizing posts claiming to *know* exactly why and how cables impart different sonic characteristics. The fact is that we don't know for sure - there are experts in electrical transmission who say that differences in speaker cables do not matter so long as the resistance, capacitance and inductance measurements are the same or similar. Real world listening reveals that simply isn't the case. You have been respectful and knowledgeable and I thank you for your input. Also, by the way, the 408 is probably my favorite round of all time - despite the fact I've never fired a single round myself.
Thanks.  I do appreciate it that you understand my positioning in this thread.  I'm just trying to keep it on the rails here within reason.

The sound of cabling is much more complex than the old "R, L, C explains everything" argument.  There are about a dozen different parameters that determine the basics of cable sonics.  That includes the elusive FM (freaking magic) aspect.   I've been in the technical field of cable characteristics for many years and I'll be the first to admit that occasionally results simply defy final estimates, especially in the GHz realm, but we are getting closer to understanding the quantum realities that effect wire, cable, metallurgy, geometry and dielectrics in use.

The .408 is an astonishing performer.  But, it is insanely expensive to shoot and the recoil is punishing because the rifle is so light compared to a Barrett BMG.  A 6.5 Creedmore is a lot more fun to shoot.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: corndog71 on 31 Jul 2021, 03:22 am
In Galen’s speaker cable designs he offers 3 different copper options but uses the same geometry.  Even he can’t explain why each copper type sounds different but apparently they do.  He doesn’t explain sound differences and thankfully doesn’t try to.  But he does explain the choices made for each aspect of his design.  Every part of his cable has been meticulously tested, measured, listened to and optimized.  And yet so much of the design is also limited by what can be manufactured.  So far I’ve only experienced his lower cost BAV line of interconnects and found them to exceed the performance of my longtime favorites.  The man knows his stuff.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 31 Jul 2021, 03:28 am
Thanks.  I do appreciate it that you understand my positioning in this thread.  I'm just trying to keep it on the rails here within reason.

The sound of cabling is much more complex than the old "R, L, C explains everything" argument.  There are about a dozen different parameters that determine the basics of cable sonics.  That includes the elusive FM (freaking magic) aspect.   I've been in the technical field of cable characteristics for many years and I'll be the first to admit that occasionally results simply defy final estimates, especially in the GHz realm, but we are getting closer to understanding the quantum realities that effect wire, cable, metallurgy, geometry and dielectrics in use.

The .408 is an astonishing performer.  But, it is insanely expensive to shoot and the recoil is punishing because the rifle is so light compared to a Barrett BMG.  A 6.5 Creedmore is a lot more fun to shoot.

I certainly don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong - particularly in areas which I don't have expertise. I'll fully admit that my understanding of electronics is just enough to be dangerous. If you need help with woodworking or god forbid, heart surgery - I'm your man. For electronics, I'll defer to people like you. I just prefer it when people present their knowledge in a kind, informative and respectful way as you have done.

Interesting that you should mention the 6.5 Creedmoor - of all my precision rifles the 6.5 is by far my favorite. It's not a competition rig but I have a slightly tricked out Ruger Precision Rifle with a Silencerco Omega on it that I absolutely love.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 31 Jul 2021, 04:00 am
[quote author=subsonic1050 link=topic=177473.msg1868150#msg1868150 date=1627702136
Interesting that you should mention the 6.5 Creedmoor - of all my precision rifles the 6.5 is by far my favorite. It's not a competition rig but I have a slightly tricked out Ruger Precision Rifle with a Silencerco Omega on it that I absolutely love.
[/quote] Hopefully I won't need you professional services!

Bergara B14/Silencerco (great minds)  Suppressed is a must... along with NRR32 plugs AND electronic muffs.  We are stereo geeks after all.

Back on topic from here on...
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 31 Jul 2021, 05:03 am
In Galen’s speaker cable designs he offers 3 different copper options but uses the same geometry.  Even he can’t explain why each copper type sounds different but apparently they do.  He doesn’t explain sound differences and thankfully doesn’t try to.  But he does explain the choices made for each aspect of his design.  Every part of his cable has been meticulously tested, measured, listened to and optimized.  And yet so much of the design is also limited by what can be manufactured.  So far I’ve only experienced his lower cost BAV line of interconnects and found them to exceed the performance of my longtime favorites.  The man knows his stuff.

Yes, Galen is knowledgeable and his white papers explaining this are excellent.

With respect to different copper types, a couple of the reasons that they can sound different is due contamination by oxygen, which can lead to oxidation of the copper and impact it's sonic performance. The other factor that is also important is the crystalline structure of the copper. Monocrystal copper sounds better than lower-grades of copper, but it quite a bit more expensive to manufacture as it is more susceptible to defects during the casting and drawing process. And, as Carlos has mentioned, in addition to the metallurgy, the cable geometry and dielectrics utilized have a notable influence on sound quality.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 31 Jul 2021, 05:25 am
Yes, Galen is knowledgeable and his white papers explaining this are excellent.

With respect to different copper types, a couple of the reasons that they can sound different is due contamination by oxygen, which can lead to oxidation of the copper and impact it's sonic performance. The other factor that is also important is the crystalline structure of the copper. Monocrystal copper sounds better than lower-grades of copper, but it quite a bit more expensive to manufacture as it is more susceptible to defects during the casting and drawing process. And, as Cheytak has mentioned, in addition to the metallurgy, the cable geometry and dielectrics utilized have a notable influence on sound quality.
BTW:  my name is Carlos   :D
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 31 Jul 2021, 05:30 am
Here is a quote from Galen Garies on his white paper on audio cables, entitled Time; shown in blue font.

"3.0 VELOCITY OF PROPAGATION ISSUES
The issue – VP varies the arrival time of signals moving down a cable. Signals
should ideally leave and arrive at the same time and shape as they are sent at all
frequencies. Audio is in an electromagnetic transition band. This is the elephant in the room.

It prevents the cable from EVER being perfectly accurate when moving low frequency electromagnetic
waves.

The propagation constant, the speed at which the electromagnetic wave / signal
moves down the wire’s outer circumference, and not IN the wire, is determined by the
dielectric material that the electromagnetic wave is predominantly traveling through. We can
measure this effect directly and indirectly.

At RF, where life is way more consistent for cables, we can calculate the velocity from the
DELAY equation.  For Ethernet cables the following equation is used;
Delay EQUATION at RF:

                                                              (534+36/√f)

The delay equation uses FREQUENCY. This is a TIME based value so it tells us that we
have an arrival time issues as the frequency changes
, and less so at RF, and WAY more so at audio frequencies.

The table illustrates the slow erosion of speed as we reduce the RF frequency. A little change is evident but at audio frequencies see much more change.

(https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/stereopix/websize/EM%20Graphs.jpg)

Actual data shows what audio cables do; the impedance RISES as we go LOWER in
frequency, by a lot. This is because the DELAY / VP factor drops, and adds TIMING issues
to signal delivery."

(https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/stereopix/websize/EM%20table.jpg)


Galen adds this comment:

"Look at the low-frequency range. Isn’t cable supposed to be the same at all frequencies or the
same TIME base? The velocity constant at a frequency is TIME, so the fact that we see a difference indicates a non-linearity across the usable audio band. The problem is that thing called propagation velocity (VP) or the speed that information travels at differing frequencies in the cable."

Timing issues are just one of the reasons why we can hear differences in audio cables. Our brains are exquisitely sensitive to timing in music reproduction, which is why high-end audio digital devices e.g., DACs, streamers, Ethernet switches, reclockers, etc., for example, use femto clocks.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 31 Jul 2021, 05:31 am
BTW:  my name is Carlos   :D

Thanks, Carlos. Cheers.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 31 Jul 2021, 06:01 am
I don’t remember the various sources I got this from but basically to reduce reflections just use a longer cable.  For example some recommend minimum 8’ for speaker cables.  Coax digital cables should be min 1.5m.  Etc.

Yup, right on the money; a good way to minimize the impact of reflections is to just use a longer cable. And you're correct that digital cables, including USB and Ethernet in addition to coax digital, should be at least 1.5 M long, minimum. This is because digital cables operate at higher bandwidth than analog cables and thus are even more susceptible to reflections.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 31 Jul 2021, 06:55 am
Stephen -
 :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 31 Jul 2021, 07:02 am
Here is a quote from Galen Garies on his white paper on audio cables, entitled Time; shown in blue font.

"3.0 VELOCITY OF PROPAGATION ISSUES
The issue – VP varies the arrival time of signals moving down a cable. Signals
should ideally leave and arrive at the same time and shape as they are sent at all
frequencies. Audio is in an electromagnetic transition band. This is the elephant in the room.

It prevents the cable from EVER being perfectly accurate when moving low frequency electromagnetic
waves.

The propagation constant, the speed at which the electromagnetic wave / signal
moves down the wire’s outer circumference, and not IN the wire, is determined by the
dielectric material that the electromagnetic wave is predominantly traveling through. We can
measure this effect directly and indirectly.

At RF, where life is way more consistent for cables, we can calculate the velocity from the
DELAY equation.  For Ethernet cables the following equation is used;
Delay EQUATION at RF:

                                                              (534+36/√f)

The delay equation uses FREQUENCY. This is a TIME based value so it tells us that we
have an arrival time issues as the frequency changes
, and less so at RF, and WAY more so at audio frequencies.

The table illustrates the slow erosion of speed as we reduce the RF frequency. A little change is evident but at audio frequencies see much more change.

(https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/stereopix/websize/EM%20Graphs.jpg)

Actual data shows what audio cables do; the impedance RISES as we go LOWER in
frequency, by a lot. This is because the DELAY / VP factor drops, and adds TIMING issues
to signal delivery."

(https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/stereopix/websize/EM%20table.jpg)


Galen adds this comment:

"Look at the low-frequency range. Isn’t cable supposed to be the same at all frequencies or the
same TIME base? The velocity constant at a frequency is TIME, so the fact that we see a difference indicates a non-linearity across the usable audio band. The problem is that thing called propagation velocity (VP) or the speed that information travels at differing frequencies in the cable."

Timing issues are just one of the reasons why we can hear differences in audio cables. Our brains are exquisitely sensitive to timing in music reproduction, which is why high-end audio digital devices e.g., DACs, streamers, Ethernet switches, reclockers, etc., for example, use femto clocks.
I remember the "jitter wars" many years ago when Ed Meitner proved that timing problems, no matter how small, completely robbed digital playback of any sense of reality. The brain's error correction capabilities are staggering.  Even more so us the brain's discrimination of real vs reproduction.

Is it live or is it Memorex.   :rotflmao:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 31 Jul 2021, 09:45 am
I remember the "jitter wars" many years ago when Ed Meitner proved that timing problems, no matter how small, completely robbed digital playback of any sense of reality. The brain's error correction capabilities are staggering.  Even more so us the brain's discrimination of real vs reproduction.

Is it live or is it Memorex.   :rotflmao:

Oh, yeah, Ed is a “pioneer” with respect to understanding this domain. One of the greats. He’s on the level of Nelson with respect to domain expertise and knowledge. And, no doubt, just one reason why his digital audio gear is so amazing.  :thumb:

Andreas Hoffman of Playback Design is also very, very knowledgeable, too.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 9 Aug 2021, 01:37 am
Finally got around to doing some AB testing.
I only swapped out the power cord used on the Holo Spring DAC.

Rest of the kit is as follows:
Source: Surface Pro 3 (Mine)
USB: Anticables USB
Interconnects: 1.5' & 3' Electra cables
Pre: Tsakiridis Alexander
Amp: Tsakiridis Apollon "Ultra"
Pre & Amp Power: Audio Art Cable
Speakers: JBL Studio Monitor 4309
Sub: Dual servo stands (Mine)
(Most items I'm borrowing from Ron to help burn things in)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=227999&size=large)

Started off with the B-24 getting some reference points in some songs I'm familiar with.

Yes- South Side of the Sky
Out of the Grey- Write My Life & Wishes '91
Alison Krauss- It Doesn't Matter
Metroid Prime- Tallon Overworld Theme 2
The Doors- Riders On the Storm
Rush- YYZ

B-24: Crisp, detailed with great definition, wide soundstage spatial cues, but natural with rich mids with and a very fluid quality i expect from tube based pre/amps. It's easy to get lost in the music.

Generic cable: VERY forward treble (on the edge of harsh) veiled mids, constrained/narrow soundstage, decent spatial cues, but imaging less well defined. Bass is muddy, esp upper/mid bass as details seem to smear into one another.
I honestly got a headache after about 4-5 songs.. lol

I know it's not a perfect or scientific A/B test, but I was honestly amazed how much more forward the treble on a generic cable was and how quickly it affected my desire to keep listening..

I'm kinda curious to see if "burning in" the generic cable for a few days helps any..  :scratch:

I also want to try swapping the B-24 with the AudioArt power cables in the future that are running the Pre amp.

I also need to build a rack to put things on, and start looking into buying some furniture/room treatment, cuz its definitely a lively bare room still that needs some attention.. lol
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 9 Aug 2021, 07:57 am
Finally got around to doing some AB testing.
I only swapped out the power cord used on the Holo Spring DAC.

Rest of the kit is as follows:
Source: Surface Pro 3 (Mine)
USB: Anticables USB
Interconnects: 1.5' & 3' Electra cables
Pre: Tsakiridis Alexander
Amp: Tsakiridis Apollon "Ultra"
Pre & Amp Power: Audio Art Cable
Speakers: JBL Studio Monitor 4309
Sub: Dual servo stands (Mine)
(Most items I'm borrowing from Ron to help burn things in)
<snip>
B-24: Crisp, detailed with great definition, wide soundstage spatial cues, but natural with rich mids with and a very fluid quality i expect from tube based pre/amps. It's easy to get lost in the music.

Generic cable: VERY forward treble (on the edge of harsh) veiled mids, constrained/narrow soundstage, decent spatial cues, but imaging less well defined. Bass is muddy, esp upper/mid bass as details seem to smear into one another.
I honestly got a headache after about 4-5 songs.. lol

I know it's not a perfect or scientific A/B test, but I was honestly amazed how much more forward the treble on a generic cable was and how quickly it affected my desire to keep listening...
Not at all surprised the B24 sounded better, and in the ways you have described. Good on ya for doing the evaluation.

Quote
I'm kinda curious to see if "burning in" the generic cable for a few days helps any..  :scratch:

Nah...they're always going to sound like sh*t. They also carry RF and EMI, and...allow noise from the component's (e.g. amps and preamps) internal full-wave bridge rectifier power supply to come back out and contaminate the quality of the power of your other components, in particular, your source components, and do all sorts of nasty stuff. It's AC...alternating current. That means it goes...in both directions. You know, alternates.  Not just into the component, but also back out of the component; but now with added noise from the component's power supply. 

I also need to build a rack to put things on, and start looking into buying some furniture/room treatment, cuz its definitely a lively bare room still that needs some attention.. lol

Yeah, a rack will really help. Putting components directly on carpet on the floor is just about the worst thing one can do. It really makes components sound thick (or...thin), dark, and compressed and adds "blur and slur".  Believe it or not, even a rack with shelves made of particle board for shelves can work really well; it turns out that painted or epoxy-coated particle board is an excellent material for damping vibration (and, I've done the vibration tests using Vibsensor, and measured as imparted power, RMS, to know).  All components are sensitive to vibration, but DACs, network bridges, streamers, etc. are particularly sensitive to it (it messes with their crystal oscillators).  The Audio Advisor Pangea racks would be a good start. https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGVULRK (https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGVULRK)

Even putting an amp on a nice maple board on solid wooden footers is a big improvement, as shown in this photo of the Conrad-Johnson ART 150 amp I have in for review, shown resting at lower left on the floor. The key here is to get good mechanical grounding between the component and support. This is why even a hard rock maple board resting on wooden blocks on carpet can work really well.

Since this photo was taken with the ART resting on its stock footers, I've subsequently put the amp on HRS Nimbus couplers and spacers, between the amp and the maple board. Those work really well; highly recommended. Those HRS guys really know what they are doing. If there are budget consraints for the HRS, get the Herbie's Audio Labs Tenderfoot. I've also measured those for attenuating imparted vibration using VibSensor, and they quite work well, also. https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/component-isolation/products/tenderfoot?variant=12643255353399 (https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/component-isolation/products/tenderfoot?variant=12643255353399)

Oh, another tip, if you use a power distributor, get it off the carpet, as well. You can see my Shunyata Everest to the right of the main rack, on it's own rock maple board resting on Diversitech anti-vibration pads.

(https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/stereopix/websize/DFFSS-and-ART.jpg)

Cheers, have fun, and keep us updated. You will likely find that Danny's power cord will sound better over the course of 48 hours as it settles.

Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: newzooreview on 9 Aug 2021, 02:52 pm
Is the B24 now available?

I don't see it on the GR Research website.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 9 Aug 2021, 05:16 pm
It should be on the site this week.
Was supposed to be last week, but IT was out of town for a few days.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: newzooreview on 9 Aug 2021, 10:17 pm
It should be on the site this week.
Was supposed to be last week, but IT was out of town for a few days.

Cool, thanks. In one of Danny's videos he said the B24 would have "quite a few other things done to it" compared to the B16. Is that something you could elaborate on, or will it just be in the product description when they make it onto the website.

Many thanks!
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 10 Aug 2021, 12:10 am
Danny should be making a video talking about them here soon.
But I dont really know all the different tweaks yet, tbh.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: newzooreview on 10 Aug 2021, 12:13 am
Thanks again. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Aug 2021, 12:26 pm
I shot a video on the B24 last night. It will be up later this week.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: newzooreview on 10 Aug 2021, 08:40 pm
Awesome. Looking forward to it.  :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 10 Aug 2021, 10:00 pm
The page should be up now :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: 77SunsetStrip on 10 Aug 2021, 11:33 pm
Been through the speaker crossover mods using high quality R, L, and C.  No doubt quality makes a difference, so on board that a power cord of quality materials and construction should perform better than generic 14 or 16 AWG cord.  However, none of my equipment has power receptacles.  The power cords are wired directly to internal switches, filters, transformers, etc.  Suppose a receptacle could be added externally, but would that defeat or dilute the benefits of quality power cable?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 11 Aug 2021, 05:09 am
Been through the speaker crossover mods using high quality R, L, and C.  No doubt quality makes a difference, so on board that a power cord of quality materials and construction should perform better than generic 14 or 16 AWG cord.  However, none of my equipment has power receptacles.  The power cords are wired directly to internal switches, filters, transformers, etc.  Suppose a receptacle could be added externally, but would that defeat or dilute the benefits of quality power cable?
You can have high quality (Furutech, etc) IEC power inlets installed on your gear.  That will open up the zany, but worthwhile world of power cabling for you.  The Furutech FI-06(G) and FI-06(R)NCF are extremely good ones.  The NCF is really, really good... AFTER it breaks in.  It is rhodium, after all.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: 77SunsetStrip on 11 Aug 2021, 04:03 pm
You can have high quality (Furutech, etc) IEC power inlets installed on your gear.  That will open up the zany, but worthwhile world of power cabling for you.  The Furutech FI-06(G) and FI-06(R)NCF are extremely good ones.  The NCF is really, really good... AFTER it breaks in.  It is rhodium, after all.

Unfortunately, my SS Amp and Preamp have no space for an internally mounted IEC receptacle.  Both are "vintage" with build quality of a tank.  Tube amp might have space for an IEC receptacle. 
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 11 Aug 2021, 09:06 pm
Unfortunately, my SS Amp and Preamp have no space for an internally mounted IEC receptacle.  Both are "vintage" with build quality of a tank.  Tube amp might have space for an IEC receptacle.
OK.  I get this.  Too bad, though.  Having an IEC is one of those advantages of modern gear.  That and newer electrolytics :)! 
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: 77SunsetStrip on 11 Aug 2021, 11:20 pm
OK.  I get this.  Too bad, though.  Having an IEC is one of those advantages of modern gear.  That and newer electrolytics :)!

All the electrolytics have been replaced, good for another 20 years.  Modern electronics don't offer any better performance specs.  If it ain't broke, . . . .
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 12 Aug 2021, 02:13 am
All the electrolytics have been replaced, good for another 20 years.  Modern electronics don't offer any better performance specs.  If it ain't broke, . . . .
Yeah, it is all about not being old here.

Perhaps I missed it, but what gear are you using?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: 77SunsetStrip on 12 Aug 2021, 01:09 pm
Yeah, it is all about not being old here.

Perhaps I missed it, but what gear are you using?

Onkyo M505 Amp, Pioneer C-21 Preamp.  Switch off from time to time to a Dynaco ST 70 rebuilt with VTA Octal board.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 12 Aug 2021, 08:03 pm
Onkyo M505 Amp, Pioneer C-21 Preamp.  Switch off from time to time to a Dynaco ST 70 rebuilt with VTA Octal board.
Gotcha.  You could easily have a tech install an IEC on the Onkyo and the Pioneer.  The Stereo70 is a chore to install one on.  I, too have a Stereo70 (loosely, the only thing left of the original is the chassis which is much modified and the A470's).  I use the VTA biard with 12BH7A's and KT77 output tubes in mine.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: maxima95 on 12 Aug 2021, 09:43 pm
This thread is about the GR Research Power Cords. 

The last 8 posts, between the same 2 individuals, have been about older equipment, IEC inlets and capacitors.

Perhaps you can start your own thread on these items.

Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 13 Aug 2021, 01:05 am
Took a little more time to compare power cables this evening.
This time around I swapped out the B-24 with the Audio Art cable that was used being on the preamp and put the B24 on the preamp.

(See my post on the previous page for my opinion of the B24 & components & songs used)

Audio Art cable:
It's a middle ground between the generic power cord and the B24.
Vocals and treble are are little more forward, tho also kind of "congested." like it doesn't have much space to breathe/move.. lol

Mids are fairly clean & well balanced, tho they sometimes lack detail, esp in the lower mid range.
Bass simply lacks the control and texture I've gotten used to, tho not quite "muddy," like the generic cable until sub bass.

Soundstage is solid tho not quite as wide as the B24.
Imaging is pretty good too, very precise, tho it lack the layering, and feels more 2 dimensional, that said, it can project forward just as well.

Gunna be out of town for a couple days, but when I come back I definitely want to try swapping it out with my "B4" prototype cable next. :thumb:

*side note*
Talking with Danny & Ron about my experience so far, they agreed that the B24 is best suited for DAC/source components.

Danny personally likes the B16 on the power amps saying they sound more relaxed compared to the B24s, but they did notice that the B24 offered a slight bump in overall volume output, but once volume is adjusted, it's a really close race.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 13 Aug 2021, 03:19 am
This thread is about the GR Research Power Cords. 

The last 8 posts, between the same 2 individuals, have been about older equipment, IEC inlets and capacitors.

Perhaps you can start your own thread on these items.
Sorry that it offended you.  It was about being able to use IEC power cables on older gear.  Bottom line is being able to use better cables on gear for improved performance.  Didn't mean to bring out the thread police.  I'm done with ancillary discussions.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: zlib on 13 Aug 2021, 07:16 am
Hobbs, which model of Audio Art cable did you use?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: 77SunsetStrip on 13 Aug 2021, 01:27 pm
This thread is about the GR Research Power Cords. 

The last 8 posts, between the same 2 individuals, have been about older equipment, IEC inlets and capacitors.

Perhaps you can start your own thread on these items.

Sorry you were unable to understand the interest in finding a way to use the GR Research cables in those posts.  Thought this was a friendly place to discuss and learn?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: maxima95 on 13 Aug 2021, 01:53 pm
Hobbsmeerkat - Thanks for taking the time for these comparisons.

Like zlib, I am also curious which Audio Art power cable was used - as there are several iterations.

Good info on the B16 and the B24.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 13 Aug 2021, 02:42 pm
It's this one:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228158)

I have been using them on both the preamps & power amps.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 13 Aug 2021, 04:39 pm
Sorry you were unable to understand the interest in finding a way to use the GR Research cables in those posts.  Thought this was a friendly place to discuss and learn?
+1
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: mlundy57 on 13 Aug 2021, 10:33 pm
This thread is about the GR Research Power Cords. 

The last 8 posts, between the same 2 individuals, have been about older equipment, IEC inlets and capacitors.

Perhaps you can start your own thread on these items.

It's not uncommon for threads to take tangents from time to time. The longer the thread, the more likely it is. A discussion or comment triggers a related (or sometimes totally unrelated) thought or question. Then after a short side trip the thread gets back on track. Sometimes the side discussion takes on a life of it's own at which time a new thread is often started. I'm guilty of it. No disrespect or offense is ever intended, nor is it taken when it happen in threads I've started.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 14 Aug 2021, 04:55 pm
+1

+2
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 14 Aug 2021, 04:56 pm
It's not uncommon for threads to take tangents from time to time. The longer the thread, the more likely it is. A discussion or comment triggers a related (or sometimes totally unrelated) thought or question. Then after a short side trip the thread gets back on track. Sometimes the side discussion takes on a life of it's own at which time a new thread is often started. I'm guilty of it. No disrespect or offense is ever intended, nor is it taken when it happen in threads I've started.

Good post. +1
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 16 Aug 2021, 12:35 am
Comparison round 3:
B24 v "B6" prototype.
(I thought it was a B4 but has a braid of 6 wires around the ground wire after closer inspection)

Same songs as ghe last 2 times

This was by far the closest in terms of overall sound quality.

The treble seems to be slightly rolled off or "veiled" on the B6, unlike the generic  cable and AAC cable in the last round, where they tended towards the forward side, or greatly so in the generic cable.

Mids & vocals on the other hand, are actually this cable's forte, the mids are slightly forward, but offer great clarity and layering/seperation within the soundstage.

Bass, like the B24, is nice and tight, tho maybe even more detailed thanks to the more forward mids.

The B6 has fantastic imaging within the soundstage, more precise than the AAC cable, and only lacking against the B24 in terms of soundstage width, but only slightly. Layering is still excellent.

Overall, aside from the rolled-off highs, this thing does really well.
I would wager its about 80-90% of the way there. The more forward mids however give it a less relaxed tone that makes it a little less easy to get lost in, but it's by no means "harsh" or "aggressive", and had I never heard the B24 I'd definitely still be a happy camper, and in a way, I still am, as most of this gear is obviously "on loan".. :p
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Speaker Challenged on 16 Aug 2021, 08:19 am
Comparison round 3:
B24 v "B6" prototype.
(I thought it was a B4 but has a braid of 6 wires around the ground wire after closer inspection)

Same songs as ghe last 2 times

This was by far the closest in terms of overall sound quality.

The treble seems to be slightly rolled off or "veiled" on the B6, unlike the generic  cable and AAC cable in the last round, where they tended towards the forward side, or greatly so in the generic cable.

Mids & vocals on the other hand, are actually this cable's forte, the mids are slightly forward, but offer great clarity and layering/seperation within the soundstage.

Bass, like the B24, is nice and tight, tho maybe even more detailed thanks to the more forward mids.

The B6 has fantastic imaging within the soundstage, more precise than the AAC cable, and only lacking against the B24 in terms of soundstage width, but only slightly. Layering is still excellent.

Overall, aside from the rolled-off highs, this thing does really well.
I would wager its about 80-90% of the way there. The more forward mids however give it a less relaxed tone that makes it a little less easy to get lost in, but it's by no means "harsh" or "aggressive", and had I never heard the B24 I'd definitely still be a happy camper, and in a way, I still am, as most of this gear is obviously "on loan".. :p

Now Hobbs I know the earth is round and I am not starting a flame ware (post police) but you must have a better class of system on loan there to hear the difference as Danny says in his video today as I can't see a lot of people hearing a major difference. I like the idea of the GR research audio jewelry for the multi-strand speaker cables that I want to buy and could justify but I will need to upgrade my gear to then justify purchasing better power cables or am I missing something?

Thoughts? What level of components, room treatment and the associated noise floor will the difference kick in.

Flat, flat, flat no round, round, round.  :lol: :lol: :lol: :popcorn: :popcorn: :thumb:

SC
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 16 Aug 2021, 01:57 pm
Normally I just use my PS Audio sprout 100, but the full list of components I'm using are on the previous page. Its definitely a big step up from what I normally listen to, its basically $650 vs $10,000-ish. (Not including the cost of speakers)

I would definitely like to do the same tests again but with my Sprout to see what difference is made on more entry to mid level integrated hardware. Maybe I can do that sometime this week.

It made a bigger difference than I was expecting, but a lot of the differences tend to be when listening to parts of songs i know have wide soundstage or have effects that are easy to distinguish between hardware/speakers.

In most cases, the changes were obvious, the last test was a lot closer, aside from the extra punch in the midrange and veiled treble.
The generic cable was a harsh experience, and the AudioArt cable was definitely a step up from that, being more balanced overall but still falling short of the B6 Prototype and B24

That said, you are largely correct. There are a lot of factors that will go into what you can/can't hear; speaker placement/design, gear, source, etc. On top of also knowing what to listen for, esp when it comes soundstage, imaging, layering, clarity in songs your familiar with.

I wouldn't say you need to spend tons on hardware to get similar benefits, but its likely that those changes are definitely going be more noticeable the better the quality of your hardware.

Funnily enough, my living room is completely untreated, and is still unfurnished, its just a bunch of mostly empty boxes sitting in a couple corners, and for me im not even sure I'm noticing a difference in noise floor, mostly cuz my test music isnt really good enough for that.. lol
It's not an ideal setup, but the differences are certainly noticable.

It's not about if the world us flat or round, but is a difference observable. I noticed it when I installed tube connectors on my XLS, I noticed it when I upgraded to the 16-strand cable kit. It was a lot less noticeable on the B6 power cable, but it was also down to the song if I noticed it or not, cuz much of my music isn't well recorded/mixed  and often played over Bluetooth... lol

But I'll definitely look into swapping back to my Sprout for a few days and report back my findings  :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: GerryD on 16 Aug 2021, 08:26 pm
Would the B16 or the B24 be the preferred choice for use from the wall outlet to an Audioquest Niagara 1200?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 16 Aug 2021, 11:48 pm
Would the B16 or the B24 be the preferred choice for use from the wall outlet to an Audioquest Niagara 1200?

In terms of power draw, the B24 will be the most effective thanks to it's lower gague.
But for fun, I'm rather curious how it will sound on the front end, and then how it sounds going from the Niagara to your source/DAC using the standard cable on the front end?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 17 Aug 2021, 02:15 am
PS AUDIO SPROUT 100 B24 vs Generic

Okay, now I'm looking at a $400 cable on a $650 integrated dac/pre/amp.

Coming from 3 weeks of my current setup. This is very different experience. As a whole, it's a bit more dry and clinical, definitely not as "musical" as I've gotten accustomed to.
It also draws a lot more attention to the speakers. They don't disappear like they do on the separates which feels much more fluid & organic..

The B24 really gives a fantastic balance to the Sprout, fantastic detail, very tight, controlled bass, but it also feels a little too clinical, tho not "cold" just not as relaxed or free.
Soundstage is decently wide, somewhere between the Audio Art Cable, & B24 on the high-end system.

The generic cable, meanwhile hides a lot of that clinical nature, but as the cost of veiled treble and rather muddy bass. The soundstage colapsed, tho not as severely/dramatically as it does on the high end system. It also doesn't sound quite as natural as it could, some tracks feel dull, others feel a bit warm, but sluggish and somewhat smeared. It's definitely not as dramatic of a difference than it is on a higher end solution.

While it works well, the B24 IMO isn't a great combo with the Sprout, esp considering the cost, the B16 would likely be a better option, or another decent cable in the $50-100 range.

With a $4-5K system a B24 would be a great match with a good quality DAC, then decent quality cables with the rest of the system.
Then with systems over $10K+, a combo of B24 for the source/DAC & B16s for the amp(s) will be a really tough combo to beat.

Hope that gives some perspective for more budget/entry oriented systems.  :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: jbl on 21 Aug 2021, 04:13 am
Just received my B24 cords today.  Replaced the B16 on the DAC, streamer and Digibuss line conditioner.  First impressions are deeper tighter bass, wider sound stage, greater dynamics, much better detail and space around the voices.  There is a slight amount of edginess to the sound but could be due to lack of break in(less than 2 hours).  Overall very impressed.  A significant step up from the B16 which handily surpassed the Anticable level 3 power cords I was using prior.

Will provide a follow up in 2 weeks.

System:

Lumin U1 streamer-Tidal streaming
Lumin X1 PSU
Berkeley Alpha DAC Reference 3
Emotiva XPA DR1 mono amps
DigiBuss
UberBuss
Magnepan 3.7i
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: WarmColors on 23 Aug 2021, 02:13 am
Question,

Does anybody who has bought the B16 or the new power cord being offered, does it completely insert into your equipment? I have the B16 and no matter what equipment I try to hook up, it does not feel like a secure connection.
Yes the power cord does provide power, but my concern still is that its just not a secure connection.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 23 Aug 2021, 02:21 am
I've experienced the same thing with multiple IEC plugs. I don't have one of Danny's cables, but I have been disassembling the plug and crimping the copper insert to get a better connection and a firmer "grab". If you loosen the screws that are visible (the 2 that clamp onto the cable - and the 2 from the front of the plug that hold the plug together) you can slide the back half off. Then loosen all 3 lugs and remove the wire from the plug. Then you should have a very small screw in the center of the back of the plug - remove that and you can separate the plastic back of the plug. Using a needle nose pliers pull out the 3 contact lugs. You'll see where it needs to be pinched in order to get a better grip. If this doesn't make sense I can disassemble one of mine and upload pictures.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: newzooreview on 23 Aug 2021, 02:32 am
Question,

Does anybody who has bought the B16 or the new power cord being offered, does it completely insert into your equipment? I have the B16 and no matter what equipment I try to hook up, it does not feel like a secure connection.
Yes the power cord does provide power, but my concern still is that its just not a secure connection.

I've purchased three B16 cables over the last few weeks. I've had no trouble getting them to seat confidently in the IEC receptacles on amp, DAC, or preamp. I always give it a good press-in while holding the front side of the device. I've certainly experienced other power cables that were a bit uncertain seating into the IEC connector, but the B16s have been good in that regard.

Because the B16s (and, as I understand, the B24s) are a braided design with a cotton core, they are much more flexible than other power cords of similar gauge. This is a big advantage.

They are still breaking in, but I'm very happy with them.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 23 Aug 2021, 02:52 am
Question,

Does anybody who has bought the B16 or the new power cord being offered, does it completely insert into your equipment? I have the B16 and no matter what equipment I try to hook up, it does not feel like a secure connection.
Yes the power cord does provide power, but my concern still is that its just not a secure connection.
Many IEC C13 connectors have a longer body than the well depth of the C14 inlet.  It gives the appearance of an Ill fit, but they are designed that way to seat the face of the C13 squarely against the bottom of the C14 inlet well.

It ain't broke.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 23 Aug 2021, 04:25 am
Many IEC C13 connectors have a longer body than the well depth of the C14 inlet.  It gives the appearance of an Ill fit, but they are designed that way to seat the face of the C13 squarely against the bottom of the C14 inlet well.

It ain't broke.

Totally agree Cheytak - however I believe that in addition to the plug not appearing seated all the way, he is also having the issue that the plug doesn't seem to be grabbing very well - if I'm interpreting correctly. I've had this issue many times with IEC plugs - even high end ones. I've had some high end plugs that grabbed so little that they seemed not to be seated at all - despite being pushed in all the way and powering the electronics. That weak "grab" always bothers me (it makes me wonder how good the connection is), so that's why I tweak mine as I outlined above.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: WarmColors on 23 Aug 2021, 05:03 am
Totally agree Cheytak - however I believe that in addition to the plug not appearing seated all the way, he is also having the issue that the plug doesn't seem to be grabbing very well - if I'm interpreting correctly. I've had this issue many times with IEC plugs - even high end ones. I've had some high end plugs that grabbed so little that they seemed not to be seated at all - despite being pushed in all the way and powering the electronics. That weak "grab" always bothers me (it makes me wonder how good the connection is), so that's why I tweak mine as I outlined above.

Yes, that is one of my main concerns that its not a tight grip. A gentle breeze may come into my house and disconnect it.
That is my only disappoinment with the cables. Maybe i just got a bad first batch?
If you have time, i would really appreciate a step by step with pictures.

Thank you,
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 23 Aug 2021, 05:06 am
I cant say I've heard of this being an issue. Save for some difficulty inserting the ground pin into some outlets.

But I'll pass info this on to our cable guy to make adjustments with IEC-end tightness going forward.  :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 23 Aug 2021, 07:31 am
I spent some time putting this together for you. Hopefully this makes it clear. It's quite easy to do.

First thing is to remove the 2 screws that hold the two halves of the plug together and to loosen the 2 screws that clamp onto the cord enough that it can be slid back onto the cord:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228752)

Then slide the housing of the plug back:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228753)

Loosen the 3 screws that hold the wires into the plug and remove the end of the plug. Looking at the back of the IEC plug you need to remove the small center screw that holds the back plate on:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228754)

Then, grasp each of the lugs and pull them out one by one with a pliers. I pull one out at a time, crimp it, and reinsert it before moving to the next one so I don't accidentally get them mixed up.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228755)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228756)

This is what each lug looks like (obviously, there are 3 of them). The gap between the 2 contacts helps determine how much the plug will grab. I use a needle nose pliers to simply pinch the contacts together. I actually pinch it completely shut at the location I marked. Don't pinch the flared tip as that is what allows the contacts to spread.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228757)

Then, simply reinsert all 3 lugs, screw the back plate back on, reattach all 3 leads (making sure you have them in the right terminals), slide the plug housing back up, screw the housing to the plug, then tighten the 2 clamping screws on the cable. Done!



Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: WarmColors on 23 Aug 2021, 10:54 am
Thank you so much!!!

I will try it out if not today, hopefully by Wednesday.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 23 Aug 2021, 05:47 pm
Thank you so much!!!

I will try it out if not today, hopefully by Wednesday.

No problem - let us know how it worked for you.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Cheytak.408 on 23 Aug 2021, 05:59 pm
Totally agree Cheytak - however I believe that in addition to the plug not appearing seated all the way, he is also having the issue that the plug doesn't seem to be grabbing very well - if I'm interpreting correctly. I've had this issue many times with IEC plugs - even high end ones. I've had some high end plugs that grabbed so little that they seemed not to be seated at all - despite being pushed in all the way and powering the electronics. That weak "grab" always bothers me (it makes me wonder how good the connection is), so that's why I tweak mine as I outlined above.
Got it.

Nice tutorial BTW  :thumb:
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: jbl on 25 Aug 2021, 07:23 am
I too noticed the B16 power cord does not sit in the iec socket as snugly as it could.  Have noticed this with other brands of power cords I have used.  My solution was to wrap some scotch tape around the end of the iec plug.  about 6-8 layers seems to be ideal.  This will take the play out of the connection and keep the plug in the iec socket snug.  Depending on the width of the tape you may need to trim 1/8" of the end of the tape to keep it flush with the plug.  Have done this with all the power cords.  I figure this could potentially decrease electrical noise as well since it will keep the plugs from moving around and arcing during louder passages of music with heavy bass.  Overall, all the plugs stay nice and snug with no worries of falling out or moving around and arcing.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Aug 2021, 10:42 pm
There is (or was) an issue with the first batch of plug ends being too long and not letting the clamps reach in deep enough to get a really good bite.

We have resolved it with shorter ends.

We modified the existing ends by cutting the tips off of them. It didn't look as pretty but worked great.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228982)

Anyone that has the old ends can send them into us and we will replace them with the new ends.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: EdwardT on 28 Aug 2021, 12:01 pm
My solution was to wrap some scotch tape around the end of the iec plug.  about 6-8 layers seems to be ideal.  This will take the play out of the connection and keep the plug in the iec socket snug.  Depending on the width of the tape you may need to trim 1/8" of the end of the tape to keep it flush with the plug.  Have done this with all the power cords.
This is a tried and true solution for IEC cables used in touring equipment especially in hard to reach areas in fx, in-ear and amp racks, also for stage gear where the vibration from the amps and subs could potentially disconnect a critical piece at the most inopportune time. I used electrical tape instead of consumer scotch, thicker and a tiny bit more temperature resistant.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 28 Aug 2021, 03:27 pm
There is (or was) an issue with the first batch of plug ends being too long and not letting the clamps reach in deep enough to get a really good bite.



We have resolved it with shorter ends.

We modified the existing ends by cutting the tips off of them. It didn't look as pretty but worked great.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228982)

Anyone that has the old ends can send them into us and we will replace them with the new ends.

That is a simple and elegant solution!
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: jbl on 28 Aug 2021, 06:57 pm
Follow up on my experience with the B24s after 1 week.  Overall a significant step up from the B16 in bass, detail, air, dynamics and soundstage.  However, I am finding a puzzling issue with the B24's that perhaps someone could provide some insight on.  When I have the B24 connected from the DAC and streamer into the DigiBuss and Digibuss into the outlet, the sound has too much glare to it.  Listening fatigue sets in quickly.  The initial impressions with this combination is great.  Bass is deeper and everything has much more detail and air.  It sounds incredible for about 2 minutes then  the mids and high become fatiguing.  Using a B16 from the outlet to the DigiBuss removes the glare and everything becomes very listenable but with the loss of the added bass and detail and air.  Just not nearly as exciting, interesting and engaging. 

The current configuration that sounds best is the B24s on the DAC and streamer, using the 3rd B24 from the outlet to the UberBuss which powers my Emotiva mono blocks via B16's.  I have tried using the B24 on the amps and UberBuss but that also added too much glare and didn't sound quite as good as the DAC, streamer, DigiBuss combo.

I wonder if my Emotiva amps may be the weak link in the system and are being exposed by the B24s when used in series on the front end of the system. They have been great amps and have done an excellent jobs driving my Maggies so far but given the quality level of the rest of the system perhaps it is time to upgrade them.

I wonder if using B24's in series from the outlet may be amplifying the deficiencies of my system too much? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. 

System:

Lumin U1 streamer-SR Mig Tidal MQA and HiFI
Lumin X1 PSU-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha DAC Reference Series 3-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Pi Audio DigiBuss->streamer, DAC, B16
Pi Audio UberBuss->amps, B24
Emotiva XPA-DR1 monoblocks-B16
Magnepan 3.7i with upgraded crossover parts-Sonicaps capacitors, Jantzen foil/wax inductors, Mye Sound custom stands
Iconoclast AES/EBU digital cable, speaker cables(dual run), XLR cables



Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Tyson on 28 Aug 2021, 07:03 pm
How many hours of burn in do you have on the cables?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: jbl on 28 Aug 2021, 07:12 pm
168 hours
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Tyson on 28 Aug 2021, 08:51 pm
Yes I think you may be right, the Emotiva's are good for the $$ but aren't really at the level of the rest of your system.  If you really like digital amps and want to stick with a digital power amp, I think the DAC Maraschino's are a good option.  Otherwise I'd look for used Pass Labs or something similar.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: WarmColors on 28 Aug 2021, 09:32 pm
There is (or was) an issue with the first batch of plug ends being too long and not letting the clamps reach in deep enough to get a really good bite.

We have resolved it with shorter ends.

We modified the existing ends by cutting the tips off of them. It didn't look as pretty but worked great.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228982)

Anyone that has the old ends can send them into us and we will replace them with the new ends.

I take it we have to pay for shipping back and forth to get them "fixed"
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: jbl on 28 Aug 2021, 09:38 pm
Open to any style of amplification.  Currently considering McIntosh, Bryston, and Hegel.  Hoping it is the ampliflier causing the glare.  The B24s in series really do sound amazing but may be revealing any flaws in the system too much.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: RonP on 28 Aug 2021, 10:22 pm
Follow up on my experience with the B24s after 1 week.  Overall a significant step up from the B16 in bass, detail, air, dynamics and soundstage.  However, I am finding a puzzling issue with the B24's that perhaps someone could provide some insight on.  When I have the B24 connected from the DAC and streamer into the DigiBuss and Digibuss into the outlet, the sound has too much glare to it.  Listening fatigue sets in quickly.  The initial impressions with this combination is great.  Bass is deeper and everything has much more detail and air.  It sounds incredible for about 2 minutes then  the mids and high become fatiguing.  Using a B16 from the outlet to the DigiBuss removes the glare and everything becomes very listenable but with the loss of the added bass and detail and air.  Just not nearly as exciting, interesting and engaging. 

The current configuration that sounds best is the B24s on the DAC and streamer, using the 3rd B24 from the outlet to the UberBuss which powers my Emotiva mono blocks via B16's.  I have tried using the B24 on the amps and UberBuss but that also added too much glare and didn't sound quite as good as the DAC, streamer, DigiBuss combo.

I wonder if my Emotiva amps may be the weak link in the system and are being exposed by the B24s when used in series on the front end of the system. They have been great amps and have done an excellent jobs driving my Maggies so far but given the quality level of the rest of the system perhaps it is time to upgrade them.

I wonder if using B24's in series from the outlet may be amplifying the deficiencies of my system too much? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. 

System:

Lumin U1 streamer-SR Mig Tidal MQA and HiFI
Lumin X1 PSU-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha DAC Reference Series 3-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Pi Audio DigiBuss->streamer, DAC, B16
Pi Audio UberBuss->amps, B24
Emotiva XPA-DR1 monoblocks-B16
Magnepan 3.7i with upgraded crossover parts-Sonicaps capacitors, Jantzen foil/wax inductors, Mye Sound custom stands
Iconoclast AES/EBU digital cable, speaker cables(dual run), XLR cables

jbl,

what sounds levels are you listening at? When I when to demo some speakers about 2 years back the dealer made a comment to me about Emotiva Amps (that he was using in one of his rooms). He said you really need to turn them up a bit before they sound good. Maybe you can workup a temporary solution by adding some sort of db pad to knock off a few db somewhere in the signal path and play the amps "louder".

just an idea.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: WarmColors on 28 Aug 2021, 10:30 pm
Sigh....

I am working on this right now and as I am finishing the copper clip at the bottom falls off. Where or how exactly should it be facing and what should it be touching?

Lol I guess I will be burning my house down tonight.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=229034)


Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: WarmColors on 28 Aug 2021, 10:38 pm
I am guessing it's inserted like this?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=229035)
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 29 Aug 2021, 12:32 am
Correct
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Jaytor on 29 Aug 2021, 12:41 am
Open to any style of amplification.  Currently considering McIntosh, Bryston, and Hegel.  Hoping it is the ampliflier causing the glare.  The B24s in series really do sound amazing but may be revealing any flaws in the system too much.

If you are open to buying used, there is a Krell FPB300 on Audiogon and an FPB600 on US AudioMart, both recently serviced by Krell to replace caps, etc. These amps are very smooth and slightly on the warm side and do great with the Magnepans. I had an FPB300 with MG3.6 speakers and they sounded fabulous.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: subsonic1050 on 29 Aug 2021, 01:49 am
I am guessing it's inserted like this?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=229035)

That looks right
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: maxima95 on 29 Aug 2021, 02:19 am
jbl

Can you possibly try some other amps to see if that is the problem?  Easier said than done, but I would want to know for sure before I bought new amps because of some power cord changes (unless you were heading in that direction before the changes).
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: jbl on 29 Aug 2021, 05:21 am
Yes.  My local Hegel/Bryston dealer is going to loan me some amps to try out.  Will report on the results in a few weeks.  Hopefully figure out this B24 puzzle. 

JBL 
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 29 Aug 2021, 04:12 pm
Follow up on my experience with the B24s after 1 week.  Overall a significant step up from the B16 in bass, detail, air, dynamics and soundstage.  However, I am finding a puzzling issue with the B24's that perhaps someone could provide some insight on.  When I have the B24 connected from the DAC and streamer into the DigiBuss and Digibuss into the outlet, the sound has too much glare to it.  Listening fatigue sets in quickly.  The initial impressions with this combination is great.  Bass is deeper and everything has much more detail and air.  It sounds incredible for about 2 minutes then  the mids and high become fatiguing.  Using a B16 from the outlet to the DigiBuss removes the glare and everything becomes very listenable but with the loss of the added bass and detail and air.  Just not nearly as exciting, interesting and engaging. 

The current configuration that sounds best is the B24s on the DAC and streamer, using the 3rd B24 from the outlet to the UberBuss which powers my Emotiva mono blocks via B16's.  I have tried using the B24 on the amps and UberBuss but that also added too much glare and didn't sound quite as good as the DAC, streamer, DigiBuss combo.

I wonder if my Emotiva amps may be the weak link in the system and are being exposed by the B24s when used in series on the front end of the system. They have been great amps and have done an excellent jobs driving my Maggies so far but given the quality level of the rest of the system perhaps it is time to upgrade them.

I wonder if using B24's in series from the outlet may be amplifying the deficiencies of my system too much? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. 

System:

Lumin U1 streamer-SR Mig Tidal MQA and HiFI
Lumin X1 PSU-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha DAC Reference Series 3-SR Orange Fuse, SR Mig, B24
Pi Audio DigiBuss->streamer, DAC, B16
Pi Audio UberBuss->amps, B24
Emotiva XPA-DR1 monoblocks-B16
Magnepan 3.7i with upgraded crossover parts-Sonicaps capacitors, Jantzen foil/wax inductors, Mye Sound custom stands
Iconoclast AES/EBU digital cable, speaker cables(dual run), XLR cables

I would swap out the UberBuss and Digibuss and see what it sounds like. A good way to try this is to power your amps directly from the wall, if possible.

Also, I wouldn't be operating all those components in a power distributor that has no surge protection. My recommendation would the new Shunyata Venom V16 power distributor. It costs more, but it has more 4 more outlets, all with surge protection, vibration damping, a ground-plane noise reduction system, and 24 dB noise reduction in 2 separate zones. Just my 2¢....
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Sep 2021, 01:52 pm
I take it we have to pay for shipping back and forth to get them "fixed"

If you send yours in, I will cover the return shipping.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: jbl on 8 Sep 2021, 11:23 pm
Follow up on the B24 power cords after 3 weeks.  Most of the edginess in the system is gone.  The B24's appear to need a fairly long break in period.  They sound great when new and outperform the B16 by a LARGE margin but with a pronounced edginess especially when connected in series through a line conditioner.  That is almost gone now and I think in another week or two will be a non issue. 

I also brought them over to test on a friend's system consisting of Lumin T2, Modwright tube preamp, and Modwright SS amp with Dynaudio speakers.  Existing power cords(3) were all B16's.  We switched them out to the B24.  BIG improvment.  Bigger sound stage, deeper cleaner bass, increased clarity and separation of instruments. and vocals.  You could hear each distinct note of the instruments and the breathiness in the vocals.  It was a step change in sound.  My friend immediately ordered several to replace all his B16's. 

I highly recommend.  One of the most significant improvements for the least cost I have done.


jbl
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Sep 2021, 10:52 pm
Follow up on the B24 power cords after 3 weeks.  Most of the edginess in the system is gone.  The B24's appear to need a fairly long break in period.  They sound great when new and outperform the B16 by a LARGE margin but with a pronounced edginess especially when connected in series through a line conditioner.  That is almost gone now and I think in another week or two will be a non issue. 

I also brought them over to test on a friend's system consisting of Lumin T2, Modwright tube preamp, and Modwright SS amp with Dynaudio speakers.  Existing power cords(3) were all B16's.  We switched them out to the B24.  BIG improvment.  Bigger sound stage, deeper cleaner bass, increased clarity and separation of instruments. and vocals.  You could hear each distinct note of the instruments and the breathiness in the vocals.  It was a step change in sound.  My friend immediately ordered several to replace all his B16's. 

I highly recommend.  One of the most significant improvements for the least cost I have done.


jbl

Thanks for posting that feedback.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: rtate on 14 Sep 2021, 02:00 pm
So here's a question.
If the power cords are AC filters in a way, if my gear is "off the grid" i.e. battery powered what are the benefits to be had or could I use zip cord with good connectors and achieve the same results ?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 14 Sep 2021, 03:01 pm
So here's a question.
If the power cords are AC filters in a way, if my gear is "off the grid" i.e. battery powered what are the benefits to be had or could I use zip cord with good connectors and achieve the same results ?

You still need protection from EMI/RFI which pervades your room and is independent of battery power, so shielding is important. Likewise, higher quality connectors, better wire, geometry, metallurgy, etc. of power cords affect sound quality, regardless of being off the grid. 
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 18 Sep 2021, 07:03 pm
Okay, B24 v B16 time!
Sorry for the delay getting to this one, been busy lately with travel, work and other projects.

But first, there have been some changes to my setup.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=229885&size=large)

Current setup us as follows:
Source: Surface Pro 3
DAC: Holo Spring
Pre: Tsakridis Alexander tube preamp
Amp: GR Research GK-10 Battery chip amp
Speakers: GR-Reseach N-3
Subs: 2x Dual 8" servo stands.

Songs are the same as in previous comparisons, but I'll list them here for the comparison.

The test was done by swapping their positions.
B24 started in the DAC, then was swapped with the B16 for the comparison.

Out of the Grey, "Write my life"
The B-16 brings a narrowed soundstage, almost to the point of feeling constraind or vaguely claustrophobic? It's still a big window, but it still feels like a window compared to the B24.  At the end of the song, when her voice moves around the room, it's a smaller circle than the B24 brings to the table.

Out of the Grey, "Wishes '91"
With the B-16, it still has the narrowed ssoundstage, but man the snare in this song was really forward, and not in a good way. It was on my face in a way that I've never heard it before. It was more distracting than anything. (Swapping back later, it was still present, but more subdued.) Upper mids feel more forward, but only the snare cuts through.

Metroid Prime "Tallon Overworld 2"
This soundtrack has a lot of ambiance and scale, and small changes are very noticeable.
You really get the sense of scale with the B24 that feels lacking on the B-16 there's one tone that with the B24 feels like a wave that spills out across the floor. With the B16, that same effect feels blurred and looses it's scale, especially in the decay.  Overall, not as spacious a withs the B24.

Allison Krauss "It Doesn't Matter"
This one is a lot less layered than the previous songs, and it sounds fantastic with either cable, nothing really stood out to me in one way or another. It's more inline with what I expected from this comparison. While fhe others went against that.

Honestly, comparing these two cables was a lot easier than I expected. The smaller soundstage is definitely something i wasn't really expecting, same goes for the really forward snare drums on the 2nd track, and the claustrophobic feel really caught me off guard.

So far, my opinion still stands that the B-24 is best suited for the source/DAC with the B-16 for the rest.

But don't misunstand, the B16 is still a fantastic cable, and would easily beat out with the $300 Audio Art cables and especially the $5 generic power cable I've tested prior.
Both of which had a much smaller sounstage, and in the case of the generic cables, a really forward upper mid/treble that gave me an actual headache. lol

Hope that helps those of you still curious about the comparison between our two powe cord options.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: routlaw on 27 Sep 2021, 10:13 pm
I've read through this entire thread and while I don't own any GR-Research gear at all I have used for 20 or more years other after market power chords etc. Currently using all PS Audio from previous generations.

There are few post within that do not make sense to me, smaller AWG power chord for Amps, while using larger for DAC's. This is at bare minimum counter intuitive. I have always installed heavier AWG power chords on amps compared to source gear. However I do have 4 dedicated circuits in my room all wired with 6 AWG stranded copper wire with the exception of the source gear which is 10 AWG solid core romex. Suffice it to say working with 6 or 8 AWG wiring is PITA.

Regarding cable reflections: Very true for digital cables and each cable has its own impedance, ie 110 ohm for AES/EBU, Coax @ 75 ohm, and USB @ 90 ohm. If a manufacturer does NOT meet these specs and many do not, reflections regardless of the length will become an issue but the longer the cable within reason those reflections will be minimized if not eliminated. However this is the first I've heard of reflections within speaker cables or power chords but the explanations seem legitimate though this is not the same as digital cable reflections and thus the cable length I am inclined to think is irrelevant other than lower resistance for shorter vs longer runs. Seems like as an apples to oranges technicality.

As a final note from all I can determine the same braided wiring used in the GR-Research speaker cables is the same used in their power chords with an addition of the ground wire buried within. Am I wrong about this? In many ways this makes sense given that both speaker cables and power chords operate in an alternating current state.

Thanks
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Sep 2021, 01:25 pm
I've read through this entire thread and while I don't own any GR-Research gear at all I have used for 20 or more years other after market power chords etc. Currently using all PS Audio from previous generations.

There are few post within that do not make sense to me, smaller AWG power chord for Amps, while using larger for DAC's. This is at bare minimum counter intuitive. I have always installed heavier AWG power chords on amps compared to source gear. However I do have 4 dedicated circuits in my room all wired with 6 AWG stranded copper wire with the exception of the source gear which is 10 AWG solid core romex. Suffice it to say working with 6 or 8 AWG wiring is PITA.

Regarding cable reflections: Very true for digital cables and each cable has its own impedance, ie 110 ohm for AES/EBU, Coax @ 75 ohm, and USB @ 90 ohm. If a manufacturer does NOT meet these specs and many do not, reflections regardless of the length will become an issue but the longer the cable within reason those reflections will be minimized if not eliminated. However this is the first I've heard of reflections within speaker cables or power chords but the explanations seem legitimate though this is not the same as digital cable reflections and thus the cable length I am inclined to think is irrelevant other than lower resistance for shorter vs longer runs. Seems like as an apples to oranges technicality.

As a final note from all I can determine the same braided wiring used in the GR-Research speaker cables is the same used in their power chords with an addition of the ground wire buried within. Am I wrong about this? In many ways this makes sense given that both speaker cables and power chords operate in an alternating current state.

Thanks

The B24 has higher noise rejection and will make a bigger difference on front end gear like DAC's.

And the longer the cable the more of a filter it is. So there is greater benefit in having a 6 foot cable verses a 2 or 3 foot cable. The same applies for digital cables.

And the wire used in the power cables is the same wire we use in speaker cables.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 30 Sep 2021, 04:17 pm
Okay, B24 v B16 time!
Sorry for the delay getting to this one, been busy lately with travel, work and other projects.

But first, there have been some changes to my setup.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=229885&size=large)

Current setup us as follows:
Source: Surface Pro 3
DAC: Holo Spring
Pre: Tsakridis Alexander tube preamp
Amp: GR Research GK-10 Battery chip amp
Speakers: GR-Reseach N-3
Subs: 2x Dual 8" servo stands.

Songs are the same as in previous comparisons, but I'll list them here for the comparison.

The test was done by swapping their positions.
B24 started in the DAC, then was swapped with the B16 for the comparison.

Out of the Grey, "Write my life"
The B-16 brings a narrowed soundstage, almost to the point of feeling constraind or vaguely claustrophobic? It's still a big window, but it still feels like a window compared to the B24.  At the end of the song, when her voice moves around the room, it's a smaller circle than the B24 brings to the table.

Out of the Grey, "Wishes '91"
With the B-16, it still has the narrowed ssoundstage, but man the snare in this song was really forward, and not in a good way. It was on my face in a way that I've never heard it before. It was more distracting than anything. (Swapping back later, it was still present, but more subdued.) Upper mids feel more forward, but only the snare cuts through.

Metroid Prime "Tallon Overworld 2"
This soundtrack has a lot of ambiance and scale, and small changes are very noticeable.
You really get the sense of scale with the B24 that feels lacking on the B-16 there's one tone that with the B24 feels like a wave that spills out across the floor. With the B16, that same effect feels blurred and looses it's scale, especially in the decay.  Overall, not as spacious a withs the B24.

Allison Krauss "It Doesn't Matter"
This one is a lot less layered than the previous songs, and it sounds fantastic with either cable, nothing really stood out to me in one way or another. It's more inline with what I expected from this comparison. While fhe others went against that.

Honestly, comparing these two cables was a lot easier than I expected. The smaller soundstage is definitely something i wasn't really expecting, same goes for the really forward snare drums on the 2nd track, and the claustrophobic feel really caught me off guard.

So far, my opinion still stands that the B-24 is best suited for the source/DAC with the B-16 for the rest.

But don't misunstand, the B16 is still a fantastic cable, and would easily beat out with the $300 Audio Art cables and especially the $5 generic power cable I've tested prior.
Both of which had a much smaller sounstage, and in the case of the generic cables, a really forward upper mid/treble that gave me an actual headache. lol

Hope that helps those of you still curious about the comparison between our two powe cord options.

Just a tip for you...get a good rack and get that gear off the floor. The vibration that the speakers are putting into the floor from pressurizing the room have a notable impact on sound quality. Vibration causes the presentation to sound unclear, unfocused and blurred and slurred. And carpet is the worst material to put electronic amplification gear on, adding fuzziness and grain. Even an affordable stand from Pangea made of MDF will make a big difference.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 30 Sep 2021, 06:31 pm
Just a tip for you...get a good rack and get that gear off the floor. The vibration that the speakers are putting into the floor from pressurizing the room have a notable impact on sound quality. Vibration causes the presentation to sound unclear, unfocused and blurred and slurred. And carpet is the worst material to put electronic amplification gear on, adding fuzziness and grain. Even an affordable stand from Pangea made of MDF will make a big difference.

Oh I know, I'm working on a proper rack for everything.

Aside from the moniblocks amps, I wasn't using in this test, everything is off of the carpet. There is a box underneath the DAC, then foam blocks for the tube preamp. And just using the rubber feet included with the chip amp.

So not perfect, but it is somewhat isolated from the floor
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Vince in TX on 30 Sep 2021, 06:48 pm
Just a tip for you...get a good rack and get that gear off the floor. The vibration that the speakers are putting into the floor from pressurizing the room have a notable impact on sound quality. Vibration causes the presentation to sound unclear, unfocused and blurred and slurred. And carpet is the worst material to put electronic amplification gear on, adding fuzziness and grain. Even an affordable stand from Pangea made of MDF will make a big difference.

Simply adding the feet to my subs and my X-Static speakers made a big difference in clarity.   I was surprised.   I didn't expect that getting them up off the carpet would make that big of a difference.   Now I'm going to look for a base for my Rythmik servo amps.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 30 Sep 2021, 07:12 pm
Now I'm going to look for a base for my Rythmik servo amps.

Build them. Attach outriggers to wood slabs...

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230329)
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Vince in TX on 30 Sep 2021, 07:14 pm
Build them. Attach outriggers to wood slabs...

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230329)

Oooh.   Where did you get your outriggers?
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Early B. on 30 Sep 2021, 11:12 pm
Oooh.   Where did you get your outriggers?

https://soundocity.com/shop/outriggers/corner-outrigger/
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: corndog71 on 1 Oct 2021, 01:28 am
I got these for my X-Statiks.  They worked well with the Isoacoustics Gaia III.

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-OA-4-Outrigger-Speaker-Spike-Set-with-Steel-Base-4-Pcs-240-771 (https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-OA-4-Outrigger-Speaker-Spike-Set-with-Steel-Base-4-Pcs-240-771)
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Stephen Scharf on 2 Oct 2021, 08:06 pm
Simply adding the feet to my subs and my X-Static speakers made a big difference in clarity.   I was surprised.   I didn't expect that getting them up off the carpet would make that big of a difference.   Now I'm going to look for a base for my Rythmik servo amps.

Yes, it's impressive the improvement it can make. I put some of Norm Varney of A/V Roomservice EVPs under my REL sub, and it made a significant improvement to the system because it kept vibration the sub from coupling mechanically to the floor, which then couples mechanically to the drywall, and then drywall resonates at...70 Hz. Adding the EVPs brought one of the most notable improvements I've made because it made the room...quieter.
Title: Re: GR Research Power Cords
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 7 Oct 2021, 01:24 am
Had a little fun this evening.
Spent a bit of the evening playing with a couple power cables on the Tsakiridis tube preamp.

Gear:
Surface Pro 3
Holo Spring DAC with B24
Tsakiridis Alexander tube preamp
GK10 battery chip amp.
NX-Studio + servo sub stands.

I tested the B16 to start vs a generic power cord & an Audio Art cable, same as the ones I tested in previous posts on the DAC.

Generic cable:
It was like looking thru a fogged and smudged window. Everything sounded unfocused and vague.. if not a little muddy in more layered tracks.
The depth of the soundstage collapsed quite a lot. There is still plenty of width, but there's no depth.

Audio Art Cable:
Much cleaner overall compared to the generic cord, no fogginess, but still rather "unfocused" compared to the B16.
I can start picking out some of the depth and details better. But it lacks the crispness. Things that sound like a spiral on the B16, instead sound like a zig-zag, so definitely getting closer, but still not quite there.

B-16:
Clean and crisp with plenty of depth and layering within the soundstage. I can't complain about it.. yet...  :lol:
Its easy so visualize what's happening in the song and "see" the imagry it paints.

I wouldn't mind testing a B24 in the future as well, but I only have one at the moment on the DAC.
I think we may have a burned-in unit I can borrow & compare it to..
Maybe that's something I can do this weekend.