AudioCircle
Music and Media => The Music Circle => Topic started by: speltz on 16 Jul 2021, 04:56 pm
-
I have Madonna's Immaculate Collection among my CDs. It's not the sort of music I usually listen to but it has one outstanding reason to commend it: the literally unbelievable soundstage it casts.
The opening track, Holiday, has percussion that is so far beyond the speakers that the sound appears to be coming from almost exactly beside me on the right. The same thing happens on the left later in the track, when the steel drum sound kicks in.
I don't want to give the wrong impression -- the whole soundstage is full of sound: left to right, certainly between the speakers but also beyond them on both sides.
I've never experienced anything like it with any other source (digital or analog). That's why I say it's literally unbelievable: I don't understand why it's just this one CD that casts such an extraordinary soundstage. And I've listened in two very different rooms, so it isn't a peculiarity of the room characteristics.
Presumably others would find the same thing, which makes it a good CD to test a system's soundstage capabilities.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=227028)
-
It is recorded in Q Sound
-
Here's some info (including list of some albums - not sure if it is all) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound
-
Well that's interesting, I just pulled up Holiday on Qobuz and that is an impressive soundstage! Thx for heads up speltz!
Phil A , i learned something new today from you! I will check out those albums as well
-
I have Madonna's Immaculate Collection among my CDs. It's not the sort of music I usually listen to but it has one outstanding reason to commend it: the literally unbelievable soundstage it casts.
The opening track, Holiday, has percussion that is so far beyond the speakers that the sound appears to be coming from almost exactly beside me on the right. The same thing happens on the left later in the track, when the steel drum sound kicks in.
I don't want to give the wrong impression -- the whole soundstage is full of sound: left to right, certainly between the speakers but also beyond them on both sides.
I've never experienced anything like it with any other source (digital or analog). That's why I say it's literally unbelievable: I don't understand why it's just this one CD that casts such an extraordinary soundstage. And I've listened in two very different rooms, so it isn't a peculiarity of the room characteristics.
Presumably others would find the same thing, which makes it a good CD to test a system's soundstage capabilities.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=227028)
I really enjoy this album. The QSound mix really gives it an incredible soundstage. 👍
-
Here's some info (including list of some albums - not sure if it is all) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound
Thanks for that link. I always wondered what other albums were recorded/mixed using QSound. I’ll have to try some of the other titles on Qobuz to see if they are using the same QSound mixes.
-
Thanks, Phil! Not only is the link useful, but you’ve addressed the thing that was puzzling me: what makes this CD different? Glad to have an answer to the riddle.
-
The album description on Qobuz clarifies the situation:
“The songs that are included are frequently altered. Everything on the collection is remastered in Q-sound, which gives an exaggerated sense of stereo separation that often distorts the original intent of the recordings.”
You can also buy devices that add reverb to everything to get a similarly fake audio spectacle.
Real soundstage is a matter of excellent stereo recording, mixing, and mastering.
-
Listen to Sting's 'The Soul Cages' - absolutely awesome too.
Best,
Anand.
-
Newzooreview: I did notice a certain artificiality to the sound; I perceived a certain degree of tinniness, and some unnatural gaps in the soundstage.
It’s still a highly entertaining listen, though. A very different experience than any other CD in my collection.
-
I'm 100% file playback but do have disc players (mainly for video) and when someone brings a disc over on rare occasion they can listen. On one secondary system, I have one of these http://www.magneticmadness.com/2017/02/carver-c-9-sonic-hologram-generator.html hooked to a spare transport and once a year or so I'll play with the C-9 (I use to have two but gave one to a friend). Depending on how something was recorded, it will give one a similar effect as Q-Sound. I've had that for many years and in fact ended up buying the current C-9 I have used after owning one when it was a current model.
Many moons ago (over 40 years back - when I was 4 years old of course :green:), when I had my first separates, they were Phase Linear (which of course at one point was owned by Bob Carver) and it had the Sonic Hologram built into preamps. It is fun to watch someone's reaction to hearing sounds come from a spot where there is no speaker.
Polk Audio made these way back when - https://polksda.com/ where one could obtain a similar effect. Polk Audio introduced these about 2 years back - https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/product/floor-standing-towers/l800 Now they are not cheap and while I have a bunch of secondary systems, none are what I'd term super high end and I really don't have a room where I could set them up the way they should be.
Here is one take on a vintage C-9 - https://www.highfidelityreview.com/carver-c9.html At one point someone on Audiogon had ads to mod C-9 units (have not looked much or have noticed them in recent years). I did think about sending it off to get better RCA jacks (although I could do that myself) and other upgraded parts.
-
Listen to Sting's 'The Soul Cages' - absolutely awesome too.
Best,
Anand.
Yes - have that one too
-
As Mr. Spock would say … fascinating.
-
Thanks for that link. I always wondered what other albums were recorded/mixed using QSound. I’ll have to try some of the other titles on Qobuz to see if they are using the same QSound mixes.
Listening to my CD, QSound mixed release of Immaculate Collection and the streaming version on Qobuz, it appears the version on Qobuz is not the QSound mix. This makes me think the other QSound mixes listed on the Wiki may not be the same mixes on Qobuz (anyone here know?). ☹️
EDIT: Oops, not exactly correct… see correction in post #34. :oops:
-
Fates Warning- Parallels and Europe- Prisoners in paradise are excellent!
-
Listen to Sting's 'The Soul Cages' - absolutely awesome too.
Best,
Anand.
Yes, that's the one I have as well. Some sounds come from 90° left or right while not messing up the normal soundstage. Q sound never seemed to catch on though.
-
Yes, that's the one I have as well. Some sounds come from 90° left or right while not messing up the normal soundstage. Q sound never seemed to catch on though.
Agreed! Downright spooky! Roger Waters' Amused to Death is also another example of that.
Tonally, the Sting album is also recorded well. One of my favorites.
Best,
Anand.
-
Interesting, I had never heard of Q Sound before.
I have that Madonna – Immaculate Collection album on LP and I have always liked the sound staging, but never really thought about how the recording was made.
-
I think the Q sound only applies to the CD. It's a function of the mastering process, not the recording process. It would be interesting to have both in order to compare them.
Note Saturn94's comment, that the version streaming on Qobuz doesn't have the same sonic characteristics as the CD.
-
Whether it only applies to the CD or not, I don’t know. You should have a listen to the LP version, as it sounds just like what you are describing coming from your CD version.
-
I think the Q sound only applies to the CD. It's a function of the mastering process, not the recording process. It would be interesting to have both in order to compare them.
Note Saturn94's comment, that the version streaming on Qobuz doesn't have the same sonic characteristics as the CD.
I stream from Tidal and QSound works perfectly.
-
The album description on Qobuz clarifies the situation:
You can also buy devices that add reverb to everything to get a similarly fake audio spectacle.
Real soundstage is a matter of excellent stereo recording, mixing, and mastering.
Real life already bad enough, the absolute sound is personal choice of each listener, real music may have good sound live or no.
Since the 1980s I was fooled by the moto The Absolute Sound is Live Music and thinked it true and was the way to go :duh:
-
Listening to my CD, QSound mixed release of Immaculate Collection and the streaming version on Qobuz, it appears the version on Qobuz is not the QSound mix. This makes me think the other QSound mixes listed on the Wiki may not be the same mixes on Qobuz (anyone here know?). ☹️
Hi, Chris. I don’t stream Qobuz myself. I was expressly referring to something Saturn94 wrote earlier in the thread — see above.
Fullrangeman: No one is claiming that the Immaculate Collection has “Absolute Sound.” We’re just saying that it has an extraordinary stereo effect. Since the effect is achieved through electronic trickery — Q Sound — I would conclude that it is definitely NOT absolute, or even audiophile-calibre, sound.
But it’s certainly an interesting listening experience for those who care to check it out.
-
I've heard QSound on well recorded and not so well recorded albums/songs. On the not so well recorded, it's entertaining. On the well recorded, I could listen all day. Love the effect, I don't care that it isn't "the absolute sound".
-
I guess that explains why I liked the CD Pulse so much last time I blasted it.
I'll have to give it another listen.
-
I've heard QSound on well recorded and not so well recorded albums/songs. On the not so well recorded, it's entertaining. On the well recorded, I could listen all day. Love the effect, I don't care that it isn't "the absolute sound".
:thumb:
-
A few years a go a AC member had in to Q Sound, they were selling a Q Sound processor for home audio on its site, the demo on the site was impressive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound
https://www.qsound.com/
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/qsound/
Seems the hi-fi audio product for us are the QXpander.
QXpander®:
QSound’s proprietary 3D spatial processing literally adds new dimension to music playback, expanding the sound stage beyond the physical limitations of speaker locations, and expanding the acoustic image outside the listener’s head when listening with headphones.
QXpander employs purpose-specific algorithms for maximum spatial impact on headphones or speakers. Audio enhancement is achieved using normal stereo signals and standard audio playback equipment, creating a stereo image with depth in three dimensions from ordinary left and right input channels.
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound
https://www.qsound.com/
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/qsound/
Seems the hi-fi audio product for us are the QXpander.
QXpander®:
QSound’s proprietary 3D spatial processing literally adds new dimension to music playback, expanding the sound stage beyond the physical limitations of speaker locations, and expanding the acoustic image outside the listener’s head when listening with headphones.
Thanks for the additional links, Fullrangeman. The statement (in the PS Audio link), “It was kind of like listening to a cross between headphones and speakers” describes my experience of the Madonna tracks very well.
I also appreciated the following opinion: “If your speakers or your room setup produce a less than amazing soundstage on QSound recordings, some important things are going very wrong — and I’ve heard some expensive systems get it wrong.”
That speaks to a question that was raised in my mind by the QSound information. I stated, earlier, that the Madonna CD was a good source to demonstrate your stereo system’s capacity to project a vivid soundstage. But I wondered if that were true after learning that QSound is reliant upon electronic manipulation.
The guy quoted above says he has heard systems that don’t present an adequate soundstage even with QSound material. Interesting.
-
But I wondered if that were true after learning that QSound is reliant upon electronic manipulation.
My opinion is that Q Sound is not suitable for evaluating speakers because Q embellishes the music beyond the usual.
The guy quoted above says he has heard systems that don’t present an adequate soundstage even with QSound material. Interesting.
I think this is due to the xover of the speakers, the fact that he didnt say the reason is already suspect.
Q Sound is a great technology to built in a DAC or pre-amp.
-
…That speaks to a question that was raised in my mind by the QSound information. I stated, earlier, that the Madonna CD was a good source to demonstrate your stereo system’s capacity to project a vivid soundstage. But I wondered if that were true after learning that QSound is reliant upon electronic manipulation.
The guy quoted above says he has heard systems that don’t present an adequate soundstage even with QSound material. Interesting.
Given that at least part of QSound involves phase manipulation, it makes sense that speakers would need to be phase accurate to faithfully produce the QSound effect. In my experience, speakers that can faithfully produce the soundstage effects of processing like QSound also do an excellent job with traditional stereo recordings (assuming proper setup and listening position of course).
-
While there’s no mention of QSound, Peter Gabriel’s “Growing Up” track on the “Up” CD has some impressive way outside the speakers/surround like effects.
PS - The multichannel SACD version (I have the CD and Mch SACD) is great as well! :thumb:
-
I just came across this in an old post on AVS;
“… But I've recently found that Dolby PLIIx Music does a fantastic***, stand-up job of decoding QSound, sending the requisite sounds to exactly the same places that I hear them on a good and simple stereo system. This opens up existing QSound recordings to be listened to by the masses, with random listener placement, just like Quad was supposed to do...”
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/qsound-list-of-material.1988490/
Interesting. I’ll have to give it a try.
-
Prefab Sprout made an album in the late 90's called "Andromeda Heights". It used a process called Sensaura, which was similar to Q Sound, but to my ears was way more effective at placing sounds throughout the room. In a good listening room the effects are pretty incredible.
Amazon Link (https://www.amazon.com/Andromeda-Heights-Prefab-Sprout/dp/B073J3CMCH/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=andromeda+heights&qid=1626714856&sr=8-1)
-
My favorite solo outing by Pink Floyd alumni is Richard Wrights Breaking China with guest Sinead O'Connor. It's a lights out selection with 3 fingers of Black Bush over ice. Trippy to say the least in Q sound..
-
Listening to my CD, QSound mixed release of Immaculate Collection and the streaming version on Qobuz, it appears the version on Qobuz is not the QSound mix. This makes me think the other QSound mixes listed on the Wiki may not be the same mixes on Qobuz (anyone here know?). ☹️
Correction…… :oops:
Upon comparing more tracks on this CD to the Qobuz version, it does appear QSound is used on some, if not most tracks. Before I was using the track “Lucky Star” for comparison since it’s obvious at the intro if QSound is used. I noticed some of the tracks on the Qobuz release are labeled “remix”, including “Lucky Star”, so it may be these remixed tracks lack QSound whereas the others maintain the QSound processing.
-
I just came across this in an old post on AVS;
“… But I've recently found that Dolby PLIIx Music does a fantastic***, stand-up job of decoding QSound, sending the requisite sounds to exactly the same places that I hear them on a good and simple stereo system. This opens up existing QSound recordings to be listened to by the masses, with random listener placement, just like Quad was supposed to do...”
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/qsound-list-of-material.1988490/
Interesting. I’ll have to give it a try.
Update…
Dolby PLIIx Music does indeed “decode” QSound very well. :thumb:
-
I have Shawn Colvin's A Few Small Repairs on both vinyl and CD. I noticed that this is another album that was mixed in QSound. But when I compared the vinyl to the CD, it was immediately apparent that the remastered vinyl isn't in QSound.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=227613)
The QSound version is a much more pleasurable listen. It doesn't present the extreme soundstage of Madonna's Immaculate Collection -- no sounds coming from directly beside the listener. Nonetheless the soundstage is impressively wide, extending beyond both speakers. The sound is coherent, dynamic and engaging. One of the best-sounding CDs in my collection.
I generally prefer vinyl but this case is a clear exception. The LP presents a much narrower soundstage, and it is a much less engaging listen.
I know the thread is getting a little stale but I thought it was worth adding an instance where I was able to make a direct comparison.
-
I didn't realize the Shawn Colvin CD was Q-Sound (pretty sure I have it and a bunch of others - I buy too much music, mostly downloads in recent years unless I like the music and there's no choice). Here's a bigger list:
http://www.qsound.com/spotlight/users/recording-artists.htm
I probably have 8 or 9 things on the list
-
I have Shawn Colvin's A Few Small Repairs on both vinyl and CD. I noticed that this is another album that was mixed in QSound. But when I compared the vinyl to the CD, it was immediately apparent that the remastered vinyl isn't in QSound.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=227613)
The QSound version is a much more pleasurable listen. It doesn't present the extreme soundstage of Madonna's Immaculate Collection -- no sounds coming from directly beside the listener. Nonetheless the soundstage is impressively wide, extending beyond both speakers. The sound is coherent, dynamic and engaging. One of the best-sounding CDs in my collection.
I generally prefer vinyl but this case is a clear exception. The LP presents a much narrower soundstage, and it is a much less engaging listen.
I know the thread is getting a little stale but I thought it was worth adding an instance where I was able to make a direct comparison.
I’ll check that out. :thumb:
-
I didn't realize the Shawn Colvin CD was Q-Sound (pretty sure I have it and a bunch of others - I buy too much music, mostly downloads in recent years unless I like the music and there's no choice). Here's a bigger list:
http://www.qsound.com/spotlight/users/recording-artists.htm
I probably have 8 or 9 things on the list
I’m looking forward to checking out some of those albums. :thumb:
-
You should have a listen to the LP version, as it sounds just like what you are describing coming from your CD version.
That’s what I did. I listened to the CD, then put the LP on — and the soundstage was about half of what it had been in the case of the CD. That was the point of the post.
It’s entirely possible that an earlier pressing of the LP was mastered in QSound, in which case it would presumably sound the same as the CD. My LP is the 2017 Anniversary Edition, remastered by Vic Anseni.
-
There may be some more info here: - https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/albums-recorded-in-qsound.721979/ or here: - https://www.avsforum.com/threads/qsound-list-of-material.1988490/ or here: - https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/whatever-happend-to-q-sound.381660/ (especially like the comment "See the documentary "The fate of Q Sound", available on Beta videocassette exclusively.)" and there's actually an old thead here: - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=35316.0 and I'm sure there are lots of others. With the hardware I mentioned earlier (Carver C-9), I'm pretty sure one could run the output to a CD recorder (I used to own one but gave it way with some other stuff before I moved just over 7.5 years ago but never tried it) while having the output of a CD player going into the input on a C-9 unit and have in effect an a Sonic Hologram CD produced. It was one of many things that I never got around to play around with.
-
You’re a font of intriguing information, Phil.
-
It’s entirely possible that an earlier pressing of the LP was mastered in QSound, in which case it would presumably sound the same as the CD. My LP is the 2017 Anniversary Edition, remastered by Vic Anseni.
My LP is the original 1990 release. It would be interesting to compare the 1990 release against the 2017 re-issue.
-
You’re a font of intriguing information, Phil.
THX :green:
I've owned many things (too many and still do) over the years. I remember having surround sound before Dolby was available and also having a house pre-wired during construction for rear surrounds and getting asked what is it for. Way back in the day, I owned one of these - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV49RPUCkWo
-
I don't remember the Flame Linear but I had two of the one that came after that, the Carver C-4000. Looks to be the same basic thing.
It was a fun piece play around with.
The things sports fans say to referees, tsk tsk!
I asked over on thecarversite if anyone has done a CD-R with a C9 unit so I'll post if there are any replies.
-
I don't remember the Flame Linear but I had two of the one that came after that, the Carver C-4000. Looks to be the same basic thing.
It was a fun piece play around with.
The things sports fans say to referees, tsk tsk!
I asked over on thecarversite if anyone has done a CD-R with a C9 unit so I'll post if there are any replies.
The Carver unit was about the same and of course came after Phase Linear. I owned lots of their equipment. Had a C-9 unit years after that but sold it and probably re-bought a couple about 15 years back.
Steve, do you know if someone is still upgrading the Carver C-9 units? I had a couple of units and a friend who helped me pack up the good audio stuff (when I moved the end of 2013) always wanted one so I gave him the other. There was someone advertising on Audiogon about 5 years back or so but I never got around to it. I believe besides the inner parts they changed the RCA jacks with the upgrade being offered. I meant to get to it but then since I don't use it tons, I hesitated and never saw the ads again. Thx
-
I'll find out for you, there's quite a Carver gear contingent going.
I keep hearing really good things about his tube amps, by the way.
Kinda wish I would have grabbed the pair that were on here a few months back.
-
I'll find out for you, there's quite a Carver gear contingent going.
I keep hearing really good things about his tube amps, by the way.
Kinda wish I would have grabbed the pair that were on here a few months back.
They are really nice. Heard them (along with his speakers) at the Florida Audio Expo. Here's a shot of the Crimson 275 from the 2019 Florida Audio Expo.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190372)
-
Phil,
I sent you a PM with the email for the fellow who does the C9 upgrades and
Oh yes, it was discussed back in the day about making holographic cassette tapes. I think that it might be discussed in the C-9 manual, but don't quote me on it. Anyway, Bob was saying that indeed the holographic process could be transferred to cassette, read most likely any audio recording device. If I remember one suggestion was about the possibility of listening to these tapes on car radio. Of course results would wildly vary but who doesn't like to have some fun with stereo?
-
Oh yes, it was discussed back in the day about making holographic cassette tapes.
What's a holographic cassette?
-
Doing a recording with a Carver C9 sonic hologram generator engaged.
That bit with the casettes isn't from me, it's from the fellow who is doing the upgrades on the C9.
I no longer have a unit here to play around with to see what it does with a CD-R.
-
Steve - thanks - got the PM and will eventually get the upgrade. Yes - the manual is at the Carver site (https://thecarversite.com/). The manual indicates that the implied license is to play cassettes and not to make recordings using the unit. As I noted earlier, the effect is based on (besides speaker positioning in the room, etc.) how the recording was made (explained in the manual). Several years back I dragged out some CDs to make a CD-R of some demo stuff to use with the unit (I have so much music, I just did it in a short period of time, otherwise I could be there for months). I have favorites I used to demo the unit from many years back. One of them from memory is Ray Charles "Hit the Road Jack." I remember years back at my old house having a friend over and playing the cut and watching the jaw dropping look on his face when the back-up singers voices were coming from several feet to the right of the right channel (he kept looking for the speaker that wasn't there). I did the demo where I live now for another friend as well and got a similar perplexed look. I have my unit in a back-up system that is mainly used for home theater and UHD (though it is quite decent for music). When I play music in the main system it is via a music server. I do have an old modded Oppo 83 in the system but it is connected to my DAC via a coax digital and is more or less there if someone comes over with a disc.
-
Got the upgrade to the Carver C-9 done and got it back yesterday. All I can say is wow! Since I don't do disc playback, I'm going to be moving it in the near future to a secondary system where I have an Oppo 103D (just a 2-channel system and the Oppo is there if someone brings a disc over but it is hooked to the network and I can access my music library on my NAS) and will hook it hook between the Oppo and my NuPrime IDA-8 Integrated/DAC. Definitely well worth the upgrade.
-
I was wondering if you had that done.
Glad it worked out.