AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: WireNut on 10 Apr 2018, 07:54 pm
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There’s a new updated Felix power line conditioner pcb in town call the “FO-Felix”.
It’s designed by a different person from the original Felix featured here on AC a few years back.
Since the original Felix was an AC project I thought this would be the best place to get opinions from builders of the original vs this new pcb.
The new updated pcb will now except 15-16 amp coils. I’m considering getting in the group buy at DIYaudio as I already have four 15 amp coils setting here ideal.
The designer states the new version does not have capacitors after the choke. Also, the caps before the choke are not varied in size as in the original Felix.
He’s using four 0.47uf caps on this pcb rather then 6 caps of varying sizes. Bypass resistors for the chokes are also added to the pcb as well as a convenient fuse holder.
Any opinions on this new version vs the original are appreciated.
More info and GB link below.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/321223-gb-fo-felix-emi-filter-ac-mains-120-230v-folsom.html#post5399670
Attached is a photo of the FO-Felix pcb.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178617)
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Folsom is an AC member so hopefully he will chime in.
Also I'll jump in before Anand and ask if there are any measurements...
And Folsom: Is there a more in-depth reason why your layout is more effective? I thought smaller cap values were important for different frequencies? Same with choke size. Can these be stacked one after the other like the original for improved performance?
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The first thing about why the Fo-Felix is more effective is the resistors that bypass the coils. Independent people have confirmed that they are a sonic improvement, on top of the objective reason which is to stop electrical resonances with the CMC, from the diversity on the AC lines.
As stated in the other thread, the problem with using multiple capacitor values is they can start talking to each other, and when they resonate with each other it's hard to predict just how far those effects may be audible; but they could go from nearly benign to fatigue. The negative consequence does not out weigh the (small) benefits of varying sizes.
They can be arranged any way you want. But if you mean ran in series, it is possible. But I'm not condoning that because it isn't an ideal circuit. It creates the same circumstance of having capacitors following the CMC, which does not appear to be optimal in results.
The reasons why I've done the different changes is from years of development working with CMCs. When you really start digging you find out very quickly that trying to squeeze the numbers for the highest/ideal attenuation is pointless when you ruin the sound at the same time. It looks like you're making a compromise, but when you hear what a filter sounds like without simultaneously butchering the complex impedance, you quickly know that it's way better. You're really getting the benefit of my R&D, that has been on going for some time now.
I'm trying to think of a good analogy... The goals are to create a stable improvement that doesn't have negative consequences, as opposed to stacking improvements on one side of a teeter-totter while the problems shoot up on the other. It's important to understand that the AC mains are very complex electrically, so what you think you know may not be true. The reality of the original Felix is that it was merely OK. Some of the results may have been negative from an engineering perspective, but were significant enough sonically that people enjoyed the difference in sound.
I'll post a graph or such in a bit.
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Folsom is an AC member so hopefully he will chime in.
Also I'll jump in before Anand and ask if there are any measurements...
And Folsom: Is there a more in-depth reason why your layout is more effective? I thought smaller cap values were important for different frequencies? Same with choke size. Can these be stacked one after the other like the original for improved performance?
:lol:
Love it!
Best,
Anand.
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Here is the difference in settling times.
(https://image.ibb.co/cad7mc/Fo_felix_vs_felix.png)
And a comparison between resonances.
(https://image.ibb.co/gztMwc/Fo_felix_vs_felix_resonance.png)
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So how many amps can they handle?
So could you put one or more of these in line before a power strip with all the audio gear plugged in? Just trying to figure out how people use these.
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The amperes depends on the choke used (PCB pours & parts exceed or match capability of available ampere from breaker). I'm recommending for amplifiers to use one 4x the ampere rating of your amplifiers ampere rating. In fact I think I may increase the sizes available after some review.
The plan is to include the comoco no matter what, which can do 3/5/10A, and then the other holes are for much larger like 17A or 20A.
These can be used inline but with the shape and connecting terminals on them can easily be put into a power distribution box. With fuses you can make sure you never overload the wrong CMC by plugging something into the wrong socket.
I'm looking at possibly larger CMCs to go on them, because for amplifiers 4x the size is a good way to make very sure you never get any saturation.
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Are you saying that if my amp is rated at 10 amps (10 amp fuse) that I would want to use a 40 amp coil?
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Are you saying that if my amp is rated at 10 amps that I would want to use a 40 amp coil?
That depends on a few factors. Is it 10a ClassA?
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No, AB. I'm using 2 Adcom GFA 555's early 1986-87 mark 1's. Fuse is 10 amp.
BTW. I currently have four Coilcraft CMT4's. Two 9-amp coils and two 15 amp coils.
I wonder if anyone on AC has experience with the CMT4's compared to the Bournes and smaller chokes by Coilcraft.
Attached are a few pics of my CMT4's. They are much larger then the coils used in the original Felix.
Due to the larger size the pin spacing is 1.500 by 0.900 and may not fit your board.
However, It would be interesting to see how many folks would be interested in trying the CMT4's with your new board.
Maybe if there's enough interest in the 4's it would be worth modifying your pcb if needed.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178638)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178639)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178640)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178641)
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No, AB. I'm using 2 Adcom GFA 555's early 1986-87 mark 1's. Fuse is 10 amp.
ha, no. It's more like a 20A CMC. The fuse might be 10A, but the amplifier doesn't use that.
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The advantage of using the CMT4 is that it won't saturate quiet as easily. But at 15A is is still somewhat limited. I'm looking into Wurth right now because they go even higher by using a nanocrystaline core that doesn't have to be so big.
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Folsom, did you try cap values higher than 2uf and if so what were the results?
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There are benefits but it gets more complicated. As you increase the capacitance you have to start compensating with increased size, different kinds of resistors, limitations due to heat, etc. It quickly devolves out of DIY, and into something most forum owners/mods don't want to see because the necessity of self deployed safety aspects rapidly encroach. Where as this iteration is at a heightened safety compared to the original, and will remain so even if you stuffed a box full of them.
The last time I helped someone build a larger power conditioner, well, it basically was erased from DIYaudio. It was safe, but the forum itself wasn't having it... and yet people are still building 400/600v tube amps on there...
Anyways, I hope that suffices as an answer. Basically due to safety and complicity, this is a great amount of capacitance. (in CFC no less)
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Got it. Thanks.
I have a bajillion Bourns 8118 (9.3A 7.3mH) lying around from the original Felix. Can these be used instead of the 8120?
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You could probably force the pins with very little effort. But I am going to say I do not condone it as it circumvents Folsom's built in safety for ampere concerns, so at your own risk knowing there is no fuse, and it does not match a 15A socket. So as long as you are not trying to use too much current, it would work.
The original Felix was often inline (of the power cord), so it was cord specific to equipment that would not exceed the rating.
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It would be great if we could source good boxes etc. as well. I found that to be the hardest and most time consuming part of building my Felixs. I ended up having cord in / cord out with a steel box in between, like a snake that just swallowed a box. I think it would be safer to have built them with IEC in socket out.
I have 4* Dodd 120w tube monoblocks and I use one for each amp.
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Boxes with cut outs or? Polycase has nice boxes for in line or distribution for a few. They offer services for cut outs but are not so practical for orders under around 10.
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Maybe if someone makes a power bar that is hackable and has enough room inside.
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Maybe if someone makes a power bar that is hackable and has enough room inside.
There should be plenty of options on ebay:
https://goo.gl/17vait (https://goo.gl/17vait)
https://goo.gl/a3X93A (https://goo.gl/a3X93A)
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What's delivery look like on the boards to the US?
Thanks.
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USPS priority means next week.
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Hi Flosom,
Not sure if this was covered in another thread but a few questions
- I built your Folsom Chip Amp, would the Felix work well inline inside this amp.
- does this board come with a recommended parts list like you chip amp so I can just order off mouser.
- Approximately how much for parts and board
Thanks in advance
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It can be used with the amp no problem. I do include a parts list. Digikey is easier for a one stop shop because mouser sold out of a few things, at least for the moment. So yes you can do a one stop shop. Parts on top of the $13 for the board+terminals is $14-16 depending on X cap selection.
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Incase anyone missed round #1, round #2 is up (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/322882-gb-round-2-fo-felix-emi-filter-ac-mains-120-230v-folsom.html#post5438561)
(https://image.ibb.co/mVzX6T/IMG_1974_1_22.jpg)
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GB# 3 is going on. (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/324916-gb-round-3-fo-felix-gb-1-ac-receptacle-enclosure.html#post5486931)
There's an enclosure included that will make it MUCH easier for most people.
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GB# 3 is going on. (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/324916-gb-round-3-fo-felix-gb-1-ac-receptacle-enclosure.html#post5486931)
There's an enclosure included that will make it MUCH easier for most people.
:thumb:
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I've had a little difficulty finding information about this Fo-Felix Power Line Conditioner, there are lots of micro-technical details shared here but nothing that tells me what this thing looks like or how it is used.
You mention that it is a board with an enclosure... would it be considered a stand-alone conditioner (like, for example, the PS Audio Uberbuss) that has outlets that one can plug audio components into? I'm looking for a good quality conditioner to plug my DAC, preamp and amp into and would be interested in knowing if the Fo-Felix would be a good solution. Thanks for any "big picture" info you can share.
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It is a DIY project.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/322882-gb-round-2-fo-felix-emi-filter-ac-mains-120-230v-folsom.html
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Yes, unfortunately I have three left thumbs :lol:!
Just curious if selling assembled units is allowed. There are a lot of audiophiles like me who have zero DIY skills.
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You can PM me about that.
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Example pictures of what can be made:
(https://i.ibb.co/yPpZg1L/fofofront1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qjCcmfb)
(https://i.ibb.co/QY6Ht3j/fofoinside4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9yq4Sk3)
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Just a heads up. Group buy #4 for the Fo-Felix pcb's is on at DIYaudio.
Link:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/335200-gb-round-4-fo-felix-gb-1-ac-receptacle-enclosure.html
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192486)
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Example pictures of what can be made:
(https://i.ibb.co/yPpZg1L/fofofront1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qjCcmfb)
(https://i.ibb.co/QY6Ht3j/fofoinside4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9yq4Sk3)
How much for the case in the photo? I have three boards from a previous GB.
Thanks
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Check the link. The problem is the GB has never happened.
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Hi All, Its me , the DIY guy who knows nothing about electronics :lol:. I bought 4 Fo Felix boards and Folsom sent me the parts list. It kind of looks like another language to me so I need some translation.
CMC - Common Mode Choke ( I figure that one out)
What is a Comoco and Bourn? are these brand names?
I will hopefully be making this power conditioner for the following
Folsoms Chip amp,
a bottlehead Reduction Phono Preamp,
My laptop
a record player.
I have a passive preamp / TVC
and a small 6N11 tube preamp
I will have 4 boards, So should I pick a CMC for the amp and also CMC for my sources / preamp?
I assume all of these do not draw much current but I do not know what CMC to use, but I want to be sure. Am I correct in choosing the P3717-A - 3A 90W/180W.
Audio Circle is always very helpful and with a little help I can get through this. If I can do this without burning my house down...anyone can.
Thanks in advance
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I would greatly appreciate a PM instead of posting those values...
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I would greatly appreciate a PM instead of posting those values...
Deleted, truly sorry about that
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PM sent, don't be afraid to ask all the questions you need.
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Hi Jeremy,
I just happened to run across a picture of your Fo-Felix and enclosure showing how you stacked 6 boards to 3 outlets + an unfiltered outlet.
I love this. Stacking the Fo-Felix is a great idea if an enclosure is tall enough.
I may have missed the photo on other threads, or may have just over looked it, but I love the idea.
Damn, I might have to modify or build a new enclosure for my Fo-Felix.
The photo I've uploaded is the only photo I know of that shows a good image of how you stacked your Fo-Felix in a single enclosure :D.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193966)
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What is going on with the Green wire from the Power socket input in the above photo. Is it attached to a ground screw to the chassis then to the plug ground?
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Yes. We call it safety ground.
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I'd like to add a small 120 volt LED or Neon indicator light to my Fo-Felix front panel but I'm not sure what to buy.
Any Ideas or links would be helpful. Thanks.
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When I want that I usually look for a switch with an LED on it. Like this. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DPST-Blue-LED-Lit-Square-Rocker-Switch-6-Pin-On-Off-Snap-In-15A-240V-20A-120V-AC/182700875132?hash=item2a89d21d7c:g:YnwAAOSwh21aZMOg)
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When I want that I usually look for a switch with an LED on it. Like this. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DPST-Blue-LED-Lit-Square-Rocker-Switch-6-Pin-On-Off-Snap-In-15A-240V-20A-120V-AC/182700875132?hash=item2a89d21d7c:g:YnwAAOSwh21aZMOg)
Thanks Jeremy.
My power switch is almost identical to that one but without the LED.
I'll look for my same switch but with an LED hopefully using the same size panel cutout.
I wasted one of my front panels already due to a component change, so I've been looking into just adding an LED if possible.
Don't want to ask my old employer for a new piece of aluminum :deadhorse:.
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Honestly I think adding an LED is sort of a pain. You can do with some diodes and capacitors.... I'm not sure why it's such a pain.
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I'll find one that fits. I have this one now.
Mouser# 691-RGSCA901RB-B-E
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Between busy season with work and family life I worked little by little and finally finished my Fo Felix. I put it in line last night right after I completed it and my jaw immediately hit the floor. I was shocked at the improvement this power conditioner made in my system.
My wife really had no idea what I was building in the workroom, all she knew is that it was “some sort of power cleaner”. I went upstairs and asked her to come down to the man cave for listen. She also immediately noticed how good it sounded as I played familiar songs from the digital portion of my system. I added my previous garage sale Furman power condition in line to show her the difference, within seconds we could hear unpleasant sound compared to the FoFelix. It was flat, harsh and fatiguing compared to the Fo Felix. My wife and I both notice how the Digital FLAC files sound more analogue, like when I play my records. I kept on mentioning how smooth it now sounds. The instruments and reverbs popped and everything is more dynamic and detailed, the Bass deepened, the sound stage deepened. I am really blown away how important a good power conditioner really is. It kind of sounds a little crazy that a quality power conditioner can do this, but it seems to be true. This DIY Project took my system to a level I was not expecting. Thank Jeremy, another super fun and rewarding build. (Looks like I have to trim the Back panel to straighten it a bit)
Digital setup is:
Laptop / Foobar 2000 running All FLAC Files > USB to ifi DAC2 with ifi USB Purifier 1 > Promitheus Audio Dual Mono TVC > Folsom Amp > Spatial M3 Turbo S Speakers
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194883)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194884)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194885)
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:thumb:
BTW you don't need fuses on the larger Bourn inductor. It doesn't do anything unless the resistor is tied to it (something on the earlier board that protects the resistor, the later boards didn't need it, I'm not sure which revision you have).
Did you plug the laptop in, too?
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.... I was shocked at the improvement this power conditioner made in my system.
.....
Hey!
Nice work there. Now try them with your TV too :wink:
Buddy
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Are you planning another build? What quantity to you need to justify it? I might be able to get enough friends together locally to justify it. Thanks.
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:thumb:
Did you plug the laptop in, too?
I did not yet, My Laptop sits about 10 feet from the ifi DAC 2 Input VIA USB cable. I only made 4 outlets for the Fo Felix, all are full. I wouls have to pop a power bar or slitter inline so I can break out to my Laptop for power. Maybe I will try that.
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Finally assembled my Fo-Felix. 19” x 10” x 3” box. Still have to apply finish to the wood sides.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205408)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205409)
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Looking real nice!
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Hi @Folsom, any new GB planned?
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Hey, I'd be interested as well. I'm far from being an expert, but i know which side of the soldering iron is the hot side and can deal with a basic wiring diagram.
Can anyone tell me if this would be something i could handle?
Folsom, If i understand correctly you provide a parts list as well?
Tony
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I am just wondering... what is the benefit of this particular design against to a decent off-the-self-design, e.g. Schaffner 2090 (two stage EMI filter)?
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Hi ZAKski288,
That's a really neat build
Please can you share the link to the parts including where I can get the board and the schematic of your assembly. Also does it support 230V 50Hz AC main power.
Thanks
Ramesh
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Is it frivolous to put a fuse right after the AC input & before the FO-Felix conditioners. I've never seen anyone use one in their builds. Thanks! Pete