[Aether Audio]

Hello World!

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone involved in making this circle possible!  From those that have posted on previous threads to those that have only viewed them and especially to the great folks that run this site - THANKS A MILLION - you're all great and very important to us!

I thought it important to sort of set up some guidlines for this circle so that it can be as much fun and as helpful to everyone as possible.  People don't plan to fail - they fail to plan.  I don't want failure to be associated with this circle or AC in any way.

To start off, let me say that you may find SP Technology Loudspeakers to be a little different from other companies out there.  If you read the "Thanks to" and "Mission" pages on our website you'll find this out on your own.  Rather than beat around the bush, I might just as well announce it up front so as to get on with things.  

In order to avoid turning this into a religious post I'll try to be brief in the following. We have no hesitations in stating that we are a Christian company.  We are non-denominational and believe that there's only one true church.  That church is composed of true believers worldwide and from every earthly denomination that profess that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, that he died to redeem mankind and that he rose again from the dead.  There is obviously much more but that much should suffice.  Some may argue that this is marketing suicide to do this but we ain't scared.  If we're supposed to sell speakers then we'll sell them.  If not then there's something else waiting for us to do.  In the end, we make no profession of being in charge.  Rather, just trying to follow the instructions we've been given the best we can.

Please don't take the above statement to mean that we think we're "better" or more "holy" than anybody else.  We are just as human and fail as much as anybody else. - maybe more.  If it weren't for the forgiveness of God we'd have no hope.  We feel that we are called to live by standards that reflect God's love for everyone.  In that, we also believe that we are more accountable for our actions than maybe others of different persuasion.  It is our greatest hope that we interact with and treat others in a way that reflects that standard.  But please be forwarned, at times I am certain we will fall short.  If you can find it in yourselves to extend patience to us in those moments, we will do all we can, with God's help, to make it right.

In light of all this I would like to share what we believe to be a format for the reasonable exchange of ideas.  Since this is our circle, I believe we have a certain right to do so.  All I would ask is for everyone to try your best to be civil to us and each other.  Common sense should prevail here.  Slurs, profane and defaming language is to be avoided.   Also, direct and unprovoked attacks of a personal nature or "bullish" challanges are probably not the best route to achieve a pleasant experience for all.

On a personal note, I'm no prude and can take a jab now and then with the best of you.  The problem is, I can also dish it out - real good too.  That is not the side of my nature that I want to develop any further.  In fact, that side of myself has not been my best friend in the past and has caused me a lot of grief.  The word "repentance" comes into mind here - I've had to do a lot of it.

I don't want to turn this circle into a gathering of the faithful sitting around singing "cum-bye-ya" either.   Everyone should feel free to speak his mind.  All I can say is that if you want to get in my face - be prepared. 'Cause I'm likely to jump right back in yours and I'm not without my resources.  The problem is that if we go there then someone's feelings will get hurt and it'll be all ugly, then in the end, I'll have to do the repentance thing again and eat crow.  I have yet to develop a taste for it.  So.. if everybody tries real hard to be cool, uh - that would be cool!

You see, we really do believe that you folks are what's important.  Not speakers or audio or whatever.  Those things are just a reason to get together.  No idea or concept is more important than the people it comes from or is conveyed to.  God tells us to love everyone, whether or not we like them.  Every single person represents eternal value and deserves to be treated with love, dignity and respect.  Not because of what they've done to earn it or lack thereof, but because of His Divine image in which they are made.

We don't ever want a single person to leave this circle without having picked up a sense of all this.  It's not just rhetoric, we mean it and if you stay tuned you'll see it in action. I have no intentions of loosing a single poster because of they way they've been treated here - not on my watch.

So on that note, I'll give it a rest.  I have another post to make where you'll see this principle in action.  Another serving of crow is waiting for me. Mr "byteme" has no way of knowing this but the meal is being served in his honor.  It might be a day or two, but keep watching.  And oh yeah, someone give him a yell.  I'm sure he'll be interested.  God works in mysterious ways!

Have fun and God bless everybody,
 - Bob

[DavidDG]

Ok. I'll be the first to post a response.

As a Christian myself I admire Bob for stating his convictions and letting his business success lay in the Lord's hands.


BUT....

I pretty much read your post as I feel others did (My opinion). In that I felt that you were a little upset that the review didn't turn out the way you wanted and consequetly the speakers were returned. I got the impression that you felt the reason was lack of power which resluted in your mandate on the return policy.

My 2 cents worth

Dave

[Double Ugly]

My first though after reading your post was “Huh?!?”  Initially you were on topic, but you lost me after “BUT…”  

I don’t understand what your response (basically a recap of your perception of Bob’s reaction to Jerry’s review) has to do with guidelines and etiquette.  Furthermore, I don't understand how you arrived at your conclusion.

BUT....

I pretty much read your post as I feel others did (My opinion). In that I felt that you were a little upset that the review didn't turn out the way you wanted and consequetly the speakers were returned.

The review of the speakers was glowing, and Jerry’s comments have continued to be very positive about the speakers and their capabilities, even after returning them.  They simply didn’t match his wants/desires/needs/room...how ever you want to look at it.  I think the review was exactly what Bob expected, but I don’t think he ever seriously entertained the notion that Jerry might actually return the speakers.  I believe it caught him off guard and opened his eyes to things he hadn’t considered before.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but the review was anything but negative, and to imply otherwise is inaccurate.

I got the impression that you felt the reason was lack of power which resluted in your mandate on the return policy.

And?  

I apologize if I’m being dense, but I don’t understand your point.

To expand on an earlier comment and reiterate those from a different post, I think Bob realized he hadn’t considered everything he should’ve before offering free 2-way shipping and made changes to protect his company.  Considering his return policy with caveats is better than any manufacturer I’m aware of, I can’t understand why anyone would consider this an issue.

DU

[Aether Audio]

DavidDG

Thanks for writing.  If you feel that way then I'm sure others do too.  I need to re-address this issue as often as it takes until it is no longer and issue.

Double-Ugly is correct in his summarization of why we changed the deal.  You may not remember, but the offer only began in August.  We only had a couple sales before Jerry's that were sold with that offer in place and they were local to us.  They weren't returned either.  I had not thought things through as well as I should have before we started this program.  The decision to change it was not made alone and was partially do to some advice we had gotten from an audiophile friend.

We had not considered it a serious threat that some less than scrupulous individuals "might" want to just have a free pair of speakers for a month, without ever intending to purchase. Jerry's return of the Timepieces made us realize that, although he is a straight up guy, everybody and his brother with a system would be wanting to try them out - maybe just for the heck of it. Many of these folks might have far less than adequate power to begin with (less than 100 W/Ch) as well as be looking for a speaker that will "showcase" the inherent sound of their tube power amp.

If you read my essay on Tubes and Solid-State, you will see that we believe that a lower efficiency speaker is not a good match for tube amps because they will not reproduce the tube sound well.  This is because the tube sound resides down at the lower power levels near that "magic" first watt.  A lower efficiency speaker such as the Timepiece will force the user to push his amp harder, even at moderate listening levels.  This is the very basis of the "SET" concept.  Single Ended Triode amplifiers only offer a few watts at most.  A person absolutely "must" use an efficient speker with them and that's how the entire genre evolved.

It works like this: If the "average" speaker efficiency is 90dB @1Watt @1meter, then you have to "make up" the 5db difference of the Timepiece's 85db sensitivity by putting out 5dB more power.  That amounts to 3.16 watts to reach the same 90 db SPL - and that's if you're sitting only 1 meter away.  If you translate that to the more common 3 meter distance, the amplifier would be forced to output 14.26 watts per channel (stereo) to achieve a 90 dB SPL at the listening position. That's 11.54 dB away from the magic 1 watt level and therefore effectively reduces the "tube sound" by 11.54dB. If the same tube amp is not clipped, it would tend to sound more like a solid-state unit, being driven that hard.

This would generally not be perceived by the person auditioning the speakers as a good thing.  The speakers would still sound very good but the quality that tube advocates are in search of would be lost.  Then they would send the speakers back. Then this would be repeated by the majority of tube owners and we'd be going broke.  Since I am not a tube amp owner I had never really thought this all through before - but I do understand the electro-acoustic principles involved in the process.

So that was the motivation.  We have to be pretty certain the Timepieces will be given every opportunity to excel if we are to run the risk of paying round trip shipping and incur the loss of value in them by their becoming used merchandise.

I hope this makes sense and remember, as Double-Ugly said, we'll still give you the free 30-day audition and pay shipping one way.  I think that's a pretty fair deal to begin with.

God bless,  
 -Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Bob/SP Pres,

I love the straightforward and direct beginning.

If you can handle a courteous, unpretentious near-heathen on your circle....I'm glad to be a part of your future here.

Hey, maybe we can even trade...you need 200 portable chairs for a pair of Timepieces?

[DavidDG]

Double Ugly,

Now that I re-read my post I can see how you would say Huh!. The second part of my post was looking back on Jerry's review thread.

Bob,

I understand that you are trying to keep people from taking advantage of your trial offer.


Dave

[Aether Audio]

TheChairGuy

Thanks so much for your kind words of support!  Glad to have you "pull up a chair" and join us.

As far as "heathens" go, the more the merrier.  You guys make me look good.   Just kidding.  I don't want to start preaching but did you know that Jesus was a system bucking zealot and rebel that had a reputation for hanging out with party-animals and whores?  He also was accused of being an excessive drinker too (wine bibber in the original text).  The power mongers of his day hated him so much for slamming their hypocrisy and corrupt, self-serving system, that they had him nailed to a cross.  Makes you wonder why some of today's established churches would even want to be associated with his name.

Maybe I'll take you up on the chair offer.  Someday, when I can get more than two people to listen to me at the same time, I'll hold a seminar.  Then I'll need at least 3 chairs!

God bless and welcome - hope to hear more from you "heathens."  You're my type.

 -Bob

[doug s.]

...We have no hesitations in stating that we are a Christian company. We are non-denominational and believe that there's only one true church. That church is composed of true believers worldwide and from every earthly denomination that profess that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, that he died to redeem mankind and that he rose again from the dead....

bob,

thanks so much for being forthright in yer belief system.  now, i know i can safely remove your company's products from my consideration, even if it is objectively proven beyond a reasonable doubt, that your loudspeakers are the best loudspeakers ever made.

most wars take place because people believe, like you, that *their* way to salvation is the *only* correct way.  have you picked up a newspaper lately?

regards,

doug s., who believes that arguing about religion is like arguing about who has the best imaginary friend.

[jkarhan1]

doug S.
Everyone has a right to both opinion and belief.  I even like the fact that there are contrary opinions.
To vilify one person’s beliefs while at the same time making a decision of exclusion based some religious beliefs is rather ironic.  You represent yourself as being both hypocritical and prejudice at the same time.

Please PM to keep the flame fest to a minimun.
Joe

[nathanm]

Oooh! Now it's getting interesting!  Do continue!

[doug s.]

doug S.
Everyone has a right to both opinion and belief.  I even like the fact that there are contrary opinions.
To vilify one person’s beliefs while at the same time making a decision of exclusion based some religious beliefs is rather ironic.  You represent yourself as being both hypocritical and prejudice at the same time.

Please PM to keep the flame fest to a minimun.
Joe

if ya wanted me to pm, then ya shoulda pm'd me.  two other folk did - in my support.  anyone whose belief system is so strong as to exclude all others is the prejudicial one, imo.  bob states he believes there is only one true church.  this yust *mite* be a tad offensive to others of other "churches".  i see nothing hypocritical about my point of view.  unless, of course, i am a hypocrite to be prejudiced against prejudiced people!

doug s.

[Aether Audio]

doug s.

I have a question for you.  What am I supposed to believe.  Based on an initial interpretation of your comments, if a person chooses to believe in one belief system over any other, then he is prejudiced and a contributor to war and world conflict.

Would you suggest that I combine all faiths together into one?  This means I would have to simultaneosly worship the Jewish/Christian God Yahweh, his polar opposite Satan, Buddha, Mohammed, the American Indian Great Spirit and a host of others I've never even heard of.  It could become a life long research project just making sure I didn't miss any.  I can hardly imagine the prayers and rituals, let alone the year round holidays!

This is absurd and I only point it out to make my point.  All I ever said is that we at SP Technology Loudspeakers believe that Jesus Christ is who the scriptures say he is.  I didn't pick out any particular Christian denomination and slam them nor any other religion for that matter.  

Pardon me if we have chosen for ourselves a belief system that doesn't agree with yours.  It's a free country (so far).  Go forth my man and believe as you will.  If you have a particular belief system, then by all means, feel free to say so and post it here.  Any Satan worshippers out there?  Let's hear from you.

It seems some people automatically take offense when someone comes forward and makes a stand about something - anything for that matter.  I also believe that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.  Does anybody hear the chimes of political correctness in doug's comments?  If anything is destroying our world, it's the fact that few people really believe anything anymore.  I would prefer a world full of materialists that really understand what they believe and why they believe it - to a world that has succumbed to popular opinion and situational ethics.  If there is a God, what the hell do you think he gave you a backbone for?!!!

If a person can't make up their mind about exactly what they believe, then they should say so.  It's not WRONG to be a little confused or not sure.  That's the first step in finding any truth.  You have to be able to admit that you don't know something first.  We all believe in science don't we (or at least we enjoy its products)?  How do you think any scientist discovered anything?  He asked "how" first.  You don't do that if you already know.

I believe that's the same process that we find out about anything - including the things that science can't prove or dis-prove...like religion and God AND which religion is the truth.  I submit that if God's really there and you REALLY want to know if he is or not, AND want to know what religion is the truth - that He's powerful and loving enough to show you the way.  I also think he'll do that even when there's no one else around to help show you the way (i.e.,Abraham). Then again, I also believe He uses other people to help point the way sometimes.  That's what churches, religion and the scriptures are for.  Sometimes, that's what stupid little "know it alls" like me are for too.  I believe God is very thrifty and will use whomever he can lay His hands on that will obey - even if they're imperfect. (I knew I qualified somehow!)

But doug, it sounds like he can't use me to help you.  I'm not sure who's choice that is but I know it's not mine.  Wish He could though.  Just think of me as a flag blowing in the wind - another fool in the crowd.  As I'm sure you will.  As far as the speakers go - oh well, we weighed the cost before you made your decision.  Like the old Marlboro (or was it Camel?) commercial says, "We aren't for everbody, but then we don't try to be."

Whatever... if I'm wrong about God, Jesus,amplifiers, loudspeakers, politics - it doesn't matter.  It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings (no offense gravitationally challanged women).   We"re all going to find out someday anyway.  And if you all have a different belief system - don't let us stop you.  We're more than willing to wait until the last chapter is played out (probably won't be long, either).  Just don't accuse us of cheating because we read THE BOOK.

God bless (or whoever),
   -Bob

[jkarhan1]

Thanks for the punt.
PM message: What fun would there be in that
After this we should move to sex, politics and spam(the pink stuff)!
For me its not an issue of religion.  None of the 3500 religions on this earth "offend" me.  Free exchange of ideas, baby! And I do not make decisions on products based on such a thing.  
However.  It was the inconsistancy that got me.
     "anyone whose belief system is so strong as to exclude all others is the prejudicial one, imo.- doug S."
It looked like you were announcing: "Because this guy has announced _____.  And because I feel  ________  is exclusive.  Then Ill be exclusive too.  
Doug. To me it looks like you are excluding him (his product) because of your belief system.

Also. Making a judgement on his product without even listening to them? I dont get it.  Seems narrow minded IMHO.
And that kind of thinking is what most likely leads to those wars you mentioned.  And oil       And causes further divide. Tit for tat.  Mommy......jonny's hitting me!!!

Prejudice= making a decision about someone/something with out even knowing that person/thing.
hypocrisy= saying you have issue with an action and then doing it yourself.  

Bob (whatever his beliefs) appeared rather accepting and warm to people who might dissagree with him.  Almost eager to exchange with those who have differing views.  I appreaciate that.  
What I dont appreciate is the fact someone would not accept/review/appreciate something based on a judgement they have made to/on another persons Belief/values/whatever.

Thats all.
Can we go play now?!
Joe

[doug s.]

... All I ever said is that we at SP Technology Loudspeakers believe that Jesus Christ is who the scriptures say he is...

funny, i thought ya said this:

"...We are non-denominational and believe that there's only one true church. That church is composed of true believers worldwide and from every earthly denomination that profess that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, that he died to redeem mankind and that he rose again from the dead...."


yure certainly free to feel any way ya want.  if the above is what the scriptures say, then it's obvious that they were written by men, not by god.  

i am free to boycott anyone who professes to believe there is only one true church.  *WHATEVER* church that happens to be.  fortunately, there is still freedom enuff in this country for me to be able to express my beliefs.  and, anyone else is free to believe/support/boycott whatever *they* wanna believe.  COMPRENDE?!?  

doug s.

[nathanm]

Doug, I tink yure  making a big mistake!  Since I have heard these speakers and you have not I believe I am qualified to say this:  These speakers are of Divine Origin.  They are a vessel from which the Voice of God mayest floweth unto earth.  It just so happens that when I heard them they were being driven by Unsaved amplifiers in a room touched by the Hand of the Devil (I am afraid I may have brought this upon it myself, unfortunately).  However, in that giant space of yours I think they will rock the house, and surely if you open your heart and mind the Timepieces will grant you everlasting audiophile bliss by the Grace of God.  Through thy holy waveguive the voices of the angels may even be heard!  Peace, brother.

[jkarhan1]

Doug S.
"i am free to boycott anyone who professes to believe there is only one true church. *WHATEVER* church that happens to be. fortunately, there is still freedom enuff in this country for me to be able to express my beliefs. and, anyone else is free to believe/support/boycott whatever *they* wanna believe. COMPRENDE?!?"

It looks like this was directed toward my post.  My appologies if it was not.  But did you actually read the post before you wrote?  What the heck are you talking about?? Boycott all you want buddy.  Id fight right beside you to defend that right.  But that was not my point.  COMPRENDE?!?
Joe

[doug s.]

nate, tanks, perhaps i will yet see the error of my ways...  

joe, no my post was directed more towards bob than anyone else.  the thing that irritates me is that he believes there is only one true church.  nothing more, nothing less.   (and, actually, i could live w/this if he kept it to himself, except whilst in church.)    if i suffer cuz i won't audition his merchandise, so be it.  but at least i am knowingly making this choice, so i don't tink i'm being close-minded about it.  it's my free will...  'nuff said.

doug s.

[jfreeman373]

nate, tanks, perhaps i will yet see the error of my ways...  

joe, no my post was directed more towards bob than anyone else.  the thing that irritates me is that he believes there is only one true church.  nothing more, nothing less.   (and, actually, i could live w/this if he kept it to himself, except whilst in church.)    
doug s.

I don't think you have a clue about what bob is saying, if you do then you must get angry when you hear any other *theories* that are thrown around in our schools that are touted as fact.  If you think he is talking about one individual building called a church, your wrong.  If you think he is talking about one individual denomination like catholocism, your wrong.  The same as there is only one race of men in this world (i.e. no elves, dwarves, or hobbits), there is also only church that can be the truth.
That church  exists in the fellowship between men with like spirit.  It is happening now, whether you want to admit it or not. YOU are participating in it this very moment whether you believe in this one true church or not.  The fellowship of men seeking the truth is all that there is.   You have already began playing the game, why bother trying to resist it by boycotting the speakers?  It makes no difference whatsoever.  But ... if it makes you feel good thinking that it does... go right ahead.  You're only deluding yourself.

[doug s.]

I don't think you have a clue about what bob is saying, if you do then you must get angry when you hear any other *theories* that are thrown around in our schools that are touted as fact.  If you think he is talking about one individual building called a church, your wrong.  If you think he is talking about one individual denomination like catholocism, your wrong.  The same as there is only one race of men in this world (i.e. no elves, dwarves, or hobbits), there is also only church that can be the truth.
 ...

no, i tink he was talking about one man being the saviour of all - jay-cee.  if i am mistaken, then please forgive me...  if you really believe *anyone* knows *which* church, or prophet,  is the "truth", well i hope god forgives *you*.

doug s.

edited  - changed "profit" to "prophet" - phreudian slip?  

[nathanm]

A fellowship of men seeking the truth!?  We're certainly not referring to religious people then!  Religious people already have the great mysteries and riddles figured out, right?  They've already got all the answers.