AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: jsalk on 14 Mar 2008, 12:24 pm

Title: The $2000 challenge
Post by: jsalk on 14 Mar 2008, 12:24 pm
This started as an email to a guy who goes by the name of funkmonkey on AVS Forum.  He emailed me about his desire for a great speaker that has bass extension to 30Hz.  His budget was $2000.  When he posted that he recieved an email from me, someone asked if I would post the email on his thread.  Later, someone suggested a re-post it here as well.  So here it is...

funkmonkey -

You asked me to post the contents of an email I sent you a few weeks ago. Sorry it took so long. I took the liberty of editing it somewhat for purposes of clarity. Let's call it...

THE $2000 CHALLENGE

funkmonkey wants a great speaker with bass extension down to a solid 30Hz and has a budget of $2000. This is a real challenge for a speaker designer.

It is possible to design a great speaker that plays to 30Hz. The problem is, it will exceed funkmonkey's budget. Here is why:

Speaker design is the art of balancing trade-offs. The speaker world is controlled by the laws of physics. You can't violate them. So you have to deal with the trade-offs involved.

Before we get going, let me say that there are many "good" $2000 speakers on the market today. But there are no "great" speakers that will play to 30Hz in this group.

First, it is important to realize that 80% of information is found in the midrange. If you don't get this right, you may have a speaker some will find acceptable, but certainly not what we will refer to as a "great" speaker. Herein lies the first trade-off.

Every driver excels in a certain frequency range and no driver can produce great midrange (accurate and detailed) and also produce deep, extended bass to 30Hz.

In a 2-way design, you can select a driver that plays deeper, but you will generally have to give up performance higher up in order to get more extended bass response.

Let's examine how this choice impacted our SongTower design as an example.

One major reason the SongTowers have been so well received, is that they reproduce an exceptionally accurate and detailed midrange and, at the same time, exhibit superb imaging (very deep and wide sound stage). All of these are the result of using a smaller (5") high-quality midwoofer with the extremely good dispersion characteristics a smaller driver can provide. (Most companies will publish FR plots 15-degrees off axis. We have published one at 60-degrees off axis.)

The trade-off is that a 5" driver will not play exceptionally deep. That is an issue we had to deal with and is where the SongTower's transmission line cabinet comes into play.

Unlike a sealed or ported cabinet, the transmission line cabinet is actually part of the speaker rather than an inert box holding the drivers. The energy radiating from the back side of the midwoofer excites air in the transmission line and the "line" is tuned to extend the bass response below where it would be using the same driver with any other type of cabinet. TL cabinets are difficult to design and not all drivers work in them. But, in this case, it works out quite well and many people are surprised by the bass extension of the SongTowers.

But even with the TL cabinet, we can't get to funkmonkey's 30Hz. So what are the alternatives at our disposal?

Well, going with a larger midwoofer in a 2-way design will allow greater bass extension. But the trade-off will be less detail and accuracy in the midrange and far more limited dispersion, resulting in a narrower and shallower sound stage.

In speakers sold at retail, midrange quality is often sacrificed for bass extension. When listening in an audio showroom, people are generally impressed by two things: the amount and extension of the bass and the "air" in the tweeter section. Only after they purchase them and spend some time with them, do they realize that there is a notable lack of midrange quality and relatively poor imaging. You can often add one-note, boomy bass as well.

And that "air" in the tweeter section can also be a problem. Since the larger midwoofer utilized cannot play as high, a tweeter must be chosen that can cross relatively low. In many cases, the top end "air" may result in pushing this larger tweeter to levels of distortion that can contribute to listener fatigue.

There are other alternatives in a 2-way speaker design, but they all involve advanced technology and very expensive drivers. The Seas Excel W18 in our Veracity series speakers is a good example. It uses a very low mass and extremely stiff magnesium cone to generate a great deal of midrange detail. But it is a very expensive driver in comparison to the drivers in the speakers in your price range. And even then, 30Hz is generally not obtainable.

In short, it is highly unlikely that a 2-way design of any consequence could meet the 30 Hz criteria.

Another alternative is a 3- or more-way design. But it is extremely hard to to successfully integrate 3 or more drivers. Integrating drivers, even in a 2-way, is difficult. Only a very small number of 3- or more-way speakers in the world get this right and they are very expensive.

In this situation, finding a combination of 3 or more great drivers and, at the same time, keeping the finished cost under $2000 is basically impossible.

This is especially true if you are designing a speaker that will be sold at retail. An audio dealer needs a 40 - 50% margin in order to carry a product. So the manufacturer must deliver the $2000 speaker to the dealer for around $1000.

In order to do that, and also cover overhead, marketing, R&D, the cost of the cabinets and provide for a profit, the manufacturer can't spend more than about $150 on parts (drivers, crossovers, binding posts, etc.).

To put that into perspective, the Hiquphon tweeters in our SongTowers would already exceed that parts budget. And the woofers in our Veracity HT3's cost more than that each.

Great musical reproduction starts and ends in the midrange. If you don't get that right, you may have an acceptable speaker, but it will not be a "great" speaker. Again, 80% of what you hear is in the midrange. The "you are there" experience most experienced audiophiles look for can be found in the midrange.

That is why we concentrate so hard on midrange performance. It is the foundation of every great speaker design.

Beyond that, you should have detail in the tweeter section as well. The more detail you have here, the better the speaker will re-create the overtone structure of instruments (the level of which is down considerably in volume from the fundamental tones). The more detail you have in the top end, the more "real" instruments will sound. It takes a very good tweeter to provide this detail without causing listener fatigue.

While bass extension is important, if your intention is to design a truly great speaker, you should pursue this only after the midrange and top end are addressed. Because unless you have those two elements well in hand, you will not have a truly great speaker.

So the problem in creating a $2000 speaker with bass extension to 30Hz comes down to accepting some trade-offs that really aren't all that acceptable if you want the best in audio reproduction. You will have to give up a detail, accuracy and imaging, which are attributes that contribute to the "magic" most experienced audiophiles look for.

The bottom line is this: If you are looking for a "great" $2000 speaker with bass extension to 30Hz, your search will likely be in vain. It just doesn't exist.

Well, I could go on forever. But that is probably enough for now.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Tirade on 14 Mar 2008, 12:41 pm
Good post Jim. I rarely venture out of the PC forums here at AC but Ive been looking for this mythical creature you describe in your post and I've had no luck. Ive almost accepted my fate and realize to obtain my goal (very similar to funkmonkey's) I'm going to need a sub.

So as a follow up question(s) (and this can be answered via PM), what is the price range that is required to obtain a "great" 2-way if you don't need to go as low as 30hz?

Can it be done for ~$500?

What is the make/break point in frequency where you start to give up too much to make it happen? 40hz? 60hz?

Thanks,

Tim
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: BrianM on 14 Mar 2008, 01:45 pm
30 Hz is just a nice round number.  There's no necessary relationship between "30 Hz" and quality music reproduction.  (Many people in my experience wouldn't know 40 Hz if it bit them, let alone 30.)  The emailer is encouraged to buy the SongTowers and forget about arbitrary numbers.  And anyway I'm sure their in-room response is close enough to the magic 30 mark.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: JoshK on 14 Mar 2008, 02:38 pm
If I were him, I'd save till he could afford the V3 otherwise "settle" for the Songtowers or if still not satisfied with his choices he should turn to DIY (which isn't saving much if he has to buy all the tools).

Monitors + subs might be another option for him.  Especially if he is a basshead, which it sounds like if he is so hung up on the 30hz number.  I agree with Brian that most do not know the difference between bass and midbass.  What most people think is bass is 80-200hz.  Still 5"ers only can move so much air, constrained by physics if he has a big room, is a headbanger or listens to rap at 95+db. 
Title: We need a not for profit audio venture
Post by: saisunil on 14 Mar 2008, 02:43 pm
Seems like there is an opportunity not for a not for profit opportunity for the audio community...  :thumb:

Title: Re: We need a not for profit audio venture
Post by: JoshK on 14 Mar 2008, 02:45 pm
Seems like there is an opportunity not for a not for profit opportunity for the audio community...  :thumb:

There is already some DIY designs out there that probably fit the bill.  One doesn't have to look too hard, but discussion of those isn't appropriate on this thread, nor does it really benefit the requester, since it seems implied that he is asking for a commercial offering.

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: saisunil on 14 Mar 2008, 02:51 pm
Jokes aside ... I agree - a good 2 way plus sub would be the way to go.
As mentioned ... it is much harder to make a good three way than a two way let alone at $2k pricepoint.

It is even harder to integrate a three way in a small to mid sized room.

Take the budget to $3k and all of a sudden - you will find some good solutions that can go -3db @ 30 Hz
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 14 Mar 2008, 03:06 pm
saisunil, you have a PM
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Toka on 14 Mar 2008, 03:47 pm
Great, informative post Jim...thanks!  :thumb:

Possibly dumb question...would it be possible to extend the bass reach in a SongTower (or similar TL design) but using a larger cabinet? Either taller, or "deeper" (not necessarily wider, which seems it would affect imaging).
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: DMurphy on 14 Mar 2008, 04:16 pm
'fraid not.  The ST cabinet is pretty much optimal, period.  What you could do to get closer to the 32 Hz mark (I know he said 30 hz, but 32 Hz is the real break point in that it corresponds to one of the deepest tones produced by any instrument--a big pipe organ) is to substitute the Scan 5" revelator woofers for the Seas, and adjust the cabinet a bit.  I've tried the Scans in the ST cabinet, and they do go deeper and have other virtues as well.  But they also cost $300 more a pair--or $600 for two MTM's.  Just another example of why the $2000 mark is so hard to hit.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: WGH on 14 Mar 2008, 06:46 pm
What you could do to get closer to the 32 Hz mark (I know he said 30 hz, but 32 Hz is the real break point in that it corresponds to one of the deepest tones produced by any instrument--a big pipe organ) is to substitute the Scan 5" revelator woofers for the Seas, and adjust the cabinet a bit.  I've tried the Scans in the ST cabinet, and they do go deeper and have other virtues as well.  But they also cost $300 more a pair--or $600 for two MTM's.

Sounds like a "Songtower Plus"  8)
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Boybees on 14 Mar 2008, 08:29 pm
'fraid not.  The ST cabinet is pretty much optimal, period.  What you could do to get closer to the 32 Hz mark (I know he said 30 hz, but 32 Hz is the real break point in that it corresponds to one of the deepest tones produced by any instrument--a big pipe organ) is to substitute the Scan 5" revelator woofers for the Seas, and adjust the cabinet a bit.  I've tried the Scans in the ST cabinet, and they do go deeper and have other virtues as well.  But they also cost $300 more a pair--or $600 for two MTM's.  Just another example of why the $2000 mark is so hard to hit.

Just for sh*ts and giggles, what about the idea of putting three SEAS 5 inchers in the ST cabinet, as opposed to two (an MTMM design, as it were). That would move more air, no doubt.

BTW, I hosted funkmonkey to listen to my SongTowers, and he's a sophisticated guy (not at all the audio bumpkin that some of the replies in this thread make him out to be). But I essentially asked him the same question: why the focus on 30 hz (The way I put it was: "Do you listen to a lot of pipe organ music?"). I told him that what I feel as "bass" in the music I love (electric bass and kick drum) is well above 30 hz in tone. His response was that he feels there are essential elements of stand-up acoustic bass tone that dip down to 30 hz. That didn't seem right to me, but I didn't argue the point any further.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: DMurphy on 14 Mar 2008, 08:36 pm
3 instead of 2?  Well, it might move more air, but it wouldn't really go any lower.  And the crossover would be more complex, with some possible adverse repercussions in the lower midrange.  As for the Scan--it would be a Super ST, but that's sort of what the HT2 already is, and it has a ribbon tweet.  The major advantage the Scan ST would have is a smaller footprint, which I kind of doubt would be a major consideration. 
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Paul K. on 14 Mar 2008, 08:36 pm
Boybees:  If you put 3 drivers into a cabinet optimized for 2 drivers, the cabinet will be undersized and you'll actually end up with a higher F3, even though 3 drivers could move more air than 2 drivers.  This is true for any cabinet, be it sealed, ported, or a TL.  You could make the SongTowers cabinet larger for the two drivers, but it would take a lot more volume to get F3 even close to 30 Hz, if even possible, and there would likely be other tradeoffs you might not want to make.
Paul
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: randybessinger on 14 Mar 2008, 09:49 pm
'fraid not.  The ST cabinet is pretty much optimal, period.  What you could do to get closer to the 32 Hz mark (I know he said 30 hz, but 32 Hz is the real break point in that it corresponds to one of the deepest tones produced by any instrument--a big pipe organ) is to substitute the Scan 5" revelator woofers for the Seas, and adjust the cabinet a bit.  I've tried the Scans in the ST cabinet, and they do go deeper and have other virtues as well.  But they also cost $300 more a pair--or $600 for two MTM's.  Just another example of why the $2000 mark is so hard to hit.

Just for sh*ts and giggles, what about the idea of putting three SEAS 5 inchers in the ST cabinet, as opposed to two (an MTMM design, as it were). That would move more air, no doubt.

BTW, I hosted funkmonkey to listen to my SongTowers, and he's a sophisticated guy (not at all the audio bumpkin that some of the replies in this thread make him out to be). But I essentially asked him the same question: why the focus on 30 hz (The way I put it was: "Do you listen to a lot of pipe organ music?"). I told him that what I feel as "bass" in the music I love (electric bass and kick drum) is well above 30 hz in tone. His response was that he feels there are essential elements of stand-up acoustic bass tone that dip down to 30 hz. That didn't seem right to me, but I didn't argue the point any further.
Did you get any calls from Curtis Chang yet to listen?
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Boybees on 14 Mar 2008, 10:17 pm
Did you get any calls from Curtis Chang yet to listen?

Not yet, but did notice he was quite active in funkmonkey's AVS thread.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 14 Mar 2008, 10:49 pm
I think different people enjoy listening to music with different types of presentations. I think it is absurd to try to diminish or deny the incredible amount of information between 30 and 40 hz. It's simply there. 2 speakers side by side with comparable midranges and highs, one with an F3 of 30hz, the other with an F3 of 40hz, it's like night and day. Regardless of what instruments lowest notes are, you take away those 10hz and it even changes the character of the music. Does having that extra 10 hz of response bring along another set of challenges, absolutely. Room acoustics become more critical, you need more power, and of course, it costs a lot more. I heard the Songtowers at RMAF. A very nice speaker and with some attributes of speakers costing many times more, quite a bargain. I have HT3's. You know both speakers are in the same family. There are attributes they share. If someone asked me if the HT3's were 3-4 times better, based on the costs, I'd respond it's more than that. Yes the HT3's are more detailed and revealing, but it's those 10hz and the ones below 30 that make them 5+ times better. Yeah and the cabinets. For others, there's no way the HT3's are 3-4 times better than the Songtowers. As Jim said, the midrange has 80% of the material, gotta get that right. But that doesn't imply that the other 20% isn't important. And to these ears, the 80% is altered when the bass of the foundation upon which it rests is missing. For some people it doesn't matter, for others like myself, it has to be there. But to deny it's not there or part of the information................I don't see this like cables, or ss vs. tubes, or digital vs. vinyl, or I guess the "jitter" thread, just personal preferences. There is plenty of information down there, Jim put that big powerful expensive motor in the HT3's for that 10hz and the dynamics and impact that come with those frequencys. I'm done.  :|
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Boybees on 14 Mar 2008, 10:55 pm
I think different people enjoy listening to music with different types of presentations. I think it is absurd to try to diminish or deny the incredible amount of information between 30 and 40 hz. It's simply there. 2 speakers side by side with comparable midranges and highs, one with an F3 of 30hz, the other with an F3 of 40hz, it's like night and day. Regardless of what instruments lowest notes are, you take away those 10hz and it even changes the character of the music.

Do you think there is information between 30 and 40 hz on all recordings? Or only on certain ones?
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 14 Mar 2008, 11:24 pm
I've never measured anything. I also have almost no classical. I would imagine that yes, any recording I have, if you were able to have a dial that moved that response curve of the HT3's, F3 of 29hz-F10 of 22hz, up 10hz to 39 and 32, it would have quite an effect on the presentation. And the better the recording, the more dramatic the effect would be. I'm not basing this on those numbers because I have measured them, I'm using the speaker makers numbers and then comparing what I do or do not hear with the speakers.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 14 Mar 2008, 11:41 pm
I heard it at RMAF. One time we came in the room the Songtowers were playing. WONDERFUL sound, very nice. And the imagining to my ears might even be a little better than the HT3's, I didn't hear them for that long. But when Jim switched back to the HT3's it was obvious in the low end. My non audiophile wife commented on the bass right away. Fuller more complete sound. I had the Dahlquist DQ10's for many years, manufactures spec of F3 @ 37hz. I was never satisfied. But you have to pay a lot for it if you want to keep the kind of qualities the Songtower already has. For some folks it doesn't matter, for others it does. And until recently in would not have been in my budget.  :D
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Boybees on 14 Mar 2008, 11:48 pm
I've never measured anything. I also have almost no classical. I would imagine that yes, any recording I have, if you were able to have a dial that moved that response curve of the HT3's, F3 of 29hz-F10 of 22hz, up 10hz to 39 and 32, it would have quite an effect on the presentation. And the better the recording, the more dramatic the effect would be. I'm not basing this on those numbers because I have measured them, I'm using the speaker makers numbers and then comparing what I do or do not hear with the speakers.

I guess I have somewhat of a different view: that bass below 40 Hz is a factor on some but not all recordings. And knowing a bit about Funkmonkey's musical tastes, it seemed that most of the recordings he wanted to listen to were among those without much information below 40 Hz. And perhaps, then, that his emphasis on that 30-40 hz was leading him away from speakers that could ultimately be very satisfying for him, in search of an elusive capability that might not mean much for most of the music he likes to listen to.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: DMurphy on 14 Mar 2008, 11:49 pm
There are only 3 orchestral instruments that reach below 40 Hz--Double Bassoon (25 Hz), Piano (28 Hz), and organ (20 Hz).  See http://www.listenhear.co.uk/general_acoustics.htm

But my listening experience track's Martyo's. I listen mostly to classical, and the HT3's bass is definitely deeper on my recordings, most of which don't have any double bassoons or organs.   There's a lot going on here, and I don't claim to understand all of it.  There's a question of whether smaller drivers pressurize the room as much as larger ones, there's harmonic distortion, and probably a lot more.  
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Boybees on 14 Mar 2008, 11:53 pm
I heard it at RMAF. One time we came in the room the Songtowers were playing. WONDERFUL sound, very nice. And the imagining to my ears might even be a little better than the HT3's, I didn't hear them for that long. But when Jim switched back to the HT3's it was obvious in the low end. My non audiophile wife commented on the bass right away. Fuller more complete sound. I had the Dahlquist DQ10's for many years, manufactures spec of F3 @ 37hz. I was never satisfied. But you have to pay a lot for it if you want to keep the kind of qualities the Songtower already has. For some folks it doesn't matter, for others it does. And until recently in would not have been in my budget.  :D

Again, I would argue that there is a difference between whether one speaker can go lower than another, and whether one speaker can move more air and thus perform with more authority, power, and fullness throughout the bass range. The HT3s, with their much larger bass drivers, are simply moving more air than the STs, within the 40 hz plus range where both speakers put out sound. And that latter phenomenon could be responsible for the difference you heard, in addition to the fact that the HT3s go lower.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 15 Mar 2008, 12:11 am
Quote
Again, I would argue that there is a difference between whether one speaker can go lower than another, and whether one speaker can move more air and thus perform with more authority, power, and fullness throughout the bass range. The HT3s, with their much larger bass drivers, are simply moving more air than the STs, within the 40 hz plus range where both speakers put out sound. And that latter phenomenon could be responsible for the difference you heard, in addition to the fact that the HT3s go lower.
That makes sense to me, "in addition to the fact that the HT3's go lower". Those DQ10's I mentioned had 10" woofers too, but they certainly weren't the driver the TC Sounds is.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: cdorval1 on 15 Mar 2008, 12:42 am
Jim,

Thanks for sharing the e-mail.  It's a very clear and objective explanation, which is very hard to find in this field.  It's also publishable.  Do you think any magazine or newsletter would take it?

In any case, thanks a lot for taking the time.  You and Dennis not only build top-notch speakers, you pass along great information about the design process.  What a gift!

Craig
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 15 Mar 2008, 01:02 am
BTW, I hosted funkmonkey to listen to my SongTowers, and he's a sophisticated guy (not at all the audio bumpkin that some of the replies in this thread make him out to be). But I essentially asked him the same question: why the focus on 30 hz (The way I put it was: "Do you listen to a lot of pipe organ music?"). I told him that what I feel as "bass" in the music I love (electric bass and kick drum) is well above 30 hz in tone. His response was that he feels there are essential elements of stand-up acoustic bass tone that dip down to 30 hz. That didn't seem right to me, but I didn't argue the point any further.

I agree completely with funkeymonkey on this. There is a transient at the beginning of a plucked note, whether bass fiddle or electric bass that requires response down to 20 Hz to be properly reproduced.

I have a wide range system - SP Tech Timepiece 2.1s that are good down to 30 Hz plus stereo Hsu subs that take it further down to 18Hz at -3 dB, 13 Hz -6 dB. I also have the ability to shelf low frequencies with the dsp in my digital audio workstation, so I can create a high pass shelf and slide it from 20 Hz up to whatever and listen to the results. Those "pops" at the beginning of notes from any instrument that has a percussive component - and that includes bass fiddle, acoustic guitar when slapped, electric bass and kick drum - seem to need bandwidth down to 20 Hz to be properly reproduced.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: BrianM on 15 Mar 2008, 03:37 pm
I've owned speakers with an F10 of 20 Hz so I'm as acquainted as anyone with the difference between that and a less low-reaching 2 -way.  I have to disagree with Marty about the crucial nature of sub-40 Hz for music other than classical.  What I usually hear on rock & other amplified music using larger woofers is just MORE bass, not an added sense of realism.  I don't think there is very much information at all below 40 Hz on rock recordings -- barring of course some R&B and gangsta that's meant to rumble the entire neighborhood.  Bass guitars extend to about 41 Hz, and room gain can handle a lot of the rest of what one might want in the bass impact dept.  On classical i.e. acoustic recordings however there is some tradeoff using a not-as-low speaker, because some room ambience extends way below 40 Hz.  A big woofer can therefore add a sense of depth and space.  For many people, though, the tradeoff of ridding oneself of too much bas in an average sized room is worth it for the better tonal balance achieved in the frequency range that is responsible for 99% of the music.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: BrianM on 15 Mar 2008, 03:40 pm
BTW, I hosted funkmonkey to listen to my SongTowers, and he's a sophisticated guy (not at all the audio bumpkin that some of the replies in this thread make him out to be). But I essentially asked him the same question: why the focus on 30 hz (The way I put it was: "Do you listen to a lot of pipe organ music?"). I told him that what I feel as "bass" in the music I love (electric bass and kick drum) is well above 30 hz in tone. His response was that he feels there are essential elements of stand-up acoustic bass tone that dip down to 30 hz. That didn't seem right to me, but I didn't argue the point any further.

I agree completely with funkeymonkey on this. There is a transient at the beginning of a plucked note, whether bass fiddle or electric bass that requires response down to 20 Hz to be properly reproduced.

I have a wide range system - SP Tech Timepiece 2.1s that are good down to 30 Hz plus stereo Hsu subs that take it further down to 18Hz at -3 dB, 13 Hz -6 dB. I also have the ability to shelf low frequencies with the dsp in my digital audio workstation, so I can create a high pass shelf and slide it from 20 Hz up to whatever and listen to the results. Those "pops" at the beginning of notes from any instrument that has a percussive component - and that includes bass fiddle, acoustic guitar when slapped, electric bass and kick drum - seem to need bandwidth down to 20 Hz to be properly reproduced.

I'm sure that's true if one's goal is the ultimate in realism, but for most that's not obtainable in their rooms regardless of what speakers and subs are on hand.  A speaker reaching into the 30s will provide a more than satisfying reproduction of the bass guitar/ upright bass/kick drum IMO.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 15 Mar 2008, 05:35 pm
In reality I could probably live happily ever after with a speaker that was flat from 40Hz to 10kHz and rolled off at 6 dB per octave above and below those frequencies, so it was 6 dB down at 20 and 20k. The HF characteristic is easy, the LF part might be attainable from a sealed, equalized (?) box.

Note that, ideally, this applies not only to the axial response but to the room response.

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: avahifi on 16 Mar 2008, 03:33 pm
My years of experience at this tells me that far too many people are searching for deeper bass in their loudspeakers while overlooking the fact that the equipment ahead of the speakers simply is not reproducing the last two octaves down cleanly or transparently.  If you get everything ahead of the speakers really working well, almost always you will hear significantly cleaner and deeper bass than you did before from the same old speakers, assuming they were good ones in the first place and that the listening room is decent.

For example, a great speaker like the HT3 will not play clean musical bass if driven by an inadequate source system.  The Songtower will go deeper and cleaner than you would believe if the electronics give it a chance.

I invite you all to Jim and my shared display room at the upcoming AudioKarma show the weekend of May 3-4 and I will have something new to say about this that I suspect all will enjoy.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S. The AudioKarma show is in a much nicer venue this year, the Embassy Suites in Livonia, Michigan.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: spons on 16 Mar 2008, 04:32 pm
There are only 3 orchestral instruments that reach below 40 Hz--Double Bassoon (25 Hz), Piano (28 Hz), and organ (20 Hz).  See http://www.listenhear.co.uk/general_acoustics.htm

This assumes the standard four-string string bass is tuned in fourths (E-A-D-G) with E=41hz, but many jazz and classical string bass players tune in fifths (C-G-B-A), making the lowest string C=33hz.

Also, five-string basses add a lower string and are tuned in fourths (B-E-A-D-G), making the lowest string B=31hz.

There is alot of classical music that uses this lowest register, and I know jazz bassist Red Mitchell used it, too.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: BrianM on 16 Mar 2008, 07:04 pm
The point about alternate double bass tunings is good and valid.  To be clear, I don't think anyone ever suggested that bass in the 30s and beyond is not desirable or that nothing is being missed by a higher cutoff.  If you can get it, and get it clearly, obviously no reason not to.    I don't know about "a lot" of classical using sub-40 Hz, all depends on how you define a lot.  But Jim's point stands: $2000 probably won't cut it.  If funkmonkey knows exactly what he wants from those low bass transients Russell brought up, and won't stop till he gets it, he's going to have to shop used or save up.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Nick V on 17 Mar 2008, 04:04 am
The only speaker I can think of that might fit the bill is the AV123 Stata Mini with a claimed -3dB point of 27Hz @ $1995.00. I have not had the pleasure of listening to them, but by all accounts they might be a good fit.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: mdfoy on 17 Mar 2008, 01:22 pm
I second Nick V on the Strata Mini.  I have them and they are as advertised, and the bass can be tuned by frequency, and amplitude.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: BrianM on 17 Mar 2008, 01:48 pm
So we're recommending another mfr's speaker in the Salk Circle?  Not exactly cool...anyway based on what I've read about both of them I'd be surprised if the Stratas image as well as the Songtowers.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 17 Mar 2008, 01:58 pm
I agree its in bad taste to come onto someone else's forum and recommend another companies loudspeaker.   


I don't like to throw stones and I'd say most of Mark's products are good ones, but have you seen the measurements of the Strata Mini?

The response curve looks pretty ragged, as I'd expect with the drivers & layout but what is most troubling is that distortion measurement.   Yikes....

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/av123_strata_mini/
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 17 Mar 2008, 02:20 pm
Quote
So we're recommending another mfr's speaker in the Salk Circle?  Not exactly cool...anyway based on what I've read about both of them I'd be surprised if the Stratas image as well as the Songtowers.

Met some of the AV123 people and listened to the products they had at RMAF. Nice people and "good" products.  If you go back to Jim's original post where he talks about "good" and "great", here's a perfect example, you have to pay for "great". Only so much bang for the buck.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: mdfoy on 17 Mar 2008, 02:48 pm
My bad on the comment about the Strata Mini :duh:  My intention was not to "recommend" them in the Salk thread, but only to comment on the bass performance of a speaker in the price range.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: DMurphy on 17 Mar 2008, 02:51 pm
No problem.  I suspect Jim believes in the first amendment.  More information is generally better than less.  (We also got to see those measurements.)
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Mar 2008, 02:53 pm
Quote
I agree its in bad taste to come onto someone else's forum and recommend another companies loudspeaker.


Yea, but Jim did post this topic as if it were a challenge. So it was inevitable that someone eventually suggested a response to the challenge.

Quote
I don't like to throw stones and I'd say most of Mark's products are good ones, but have you seen the measurements of the Strata Mini?

The response curve looks pretty ragged, as I'd expect with the drivers & layout but what is most troubling is that distortion measurement.   Yikes....

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/av123_strata_mini/

FYI, on that one: If I remember correctly, that speaker was only sent up for photos. It was a single unit that was assembled at AV123 with whatever drivers were at hand. The tweeter was out of spec and was only used for mock up. It wasn't even a production unit.

Neither the prototype nor any of the many samples from production that I have measured ever looked like that.

Nine great reviews and three industry awards suggests it must not be too bad.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: ecramer on 17 Mar 2008, 02:59 pm
So we're recommending another mfr's speaker in the Salk Circle?  Not exactly cool...anyway based on what I've read about both of them I'd be surprised if the Stratas image as well as the Songtowers.

I have been reading this post from the start and i was wondering from the start what was the purpose of the first post from Jsalk. was? Was  the whole post just a long answer to he question of can you buy a speaker that goes down to 30hrz for less then$2000 or is Mr Salk going to let us determine that there is no speaker in the price range that will fit the bill then introduce a new speaker that will? To tell you the truth i thought maybe that Mr Salk was asking if anyone knew of a speaker that would fit the bill to help the guy get what he wanted in which case recommending other speakers is ok.

ED
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 17 Mar 2008, 03:02 pm
Quote
I agree its in bad taste to come onto someone else's forum and recommend another companies loudspeaker.


Yea, but Jim did post this topic as if it were a challenge. So it was inevitable that someone eventually suggested a response to the challenge.

Quote
I don't like to throw stones and I'd say most of Mark's products are good ones, but have you seen the measurements of the Strata Mini?

The response curve looks pretty ragged, as I'd expect with the drivers & layout but what is most troubling is that distortion measurement.   Yikes....

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/av123_strata_mini/

FYI, on that one: If I remember correctly, that speaker was only sent up for photos. It was a single unit that was assembled at AV123 with whatever drivers were at hand. The tweeter was out of spec and was only used for mock up. It wasn't even a production unit.

Neither the prototype nor any of the many samples from production that I have measured ever looked like that.

Nine great reviews and three industry awards suggests it must not be too bad.

Well... it shouldn't take anything more than an email to have them take that review down if that is the case.    Why in the world would they send a mock-up speaker to a reviewer and let them run a set of measurements in the NRC?   

In terms of Jim, hey.... its his forum.    I'm feeling like I shouldn't be posting on here now!   :)

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Mar 2008, 03:13 pm
Quote
Well... it shouldn't take anything more than an email to have them take that review down if that is the case.    Why in the world would they send a mock-up speaker to a reviewer and let them run a set of measurements in the NRC?
   

The review was made on a pre-production pair. I think it was the very first review. The review pair was fine. A separate single speaker was sent elsewhere for the photos and it was the one that was inadvertently sent to or used for the measurements. I think it was all covered somewhere on the AV123 forum and was old news.

Some complete measurements can be seen here: http://www.stereomojo.com/REVIEWS.htm#av123MINIPRELIM

Quote
In terms of Jim, hey.... its his forum.    I'm feeling like I shouldn't be posting on here now!
   

Yea, sorry guys. Just straightening out a little misunderstanding.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 17 Mar 2008, 03:23 pm
Ok.... I don't understand why it would be an issue to ask them to take it down if it wasn't representative of the speaker.  It would be easy to send them another pair and say hey.... this is the production unit.

Did you design that speaker Danny? 

If so, pointing to your own measurements is hardly convincing.   The point of a review is that it SHOULD be unbiased.    When your involved in evaluating your own product, even when its something objective like measurements, it destroys the credibility of the review.
 

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: randybessinger on 17 Mar 2008, 03:37 pm
Did you get any calls from Curtis Chang yet to listen?

Not yet, but did notice he was quite active in funkmonkey's AVS thread.
I got an email from him today that said he had tried to contact you as he was interested in listening to the Songtowers.  Not sure how he tried to contact you-probably PM on AVS forum.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Mar 2008, 03:40 pm
Quote
Ok.... I don't understand why it would be an issue to ask them to take it down if it wasn't representative of the speaker.  It would be easy to send them another pair and say hey.... this is the production unit.


That's not my department.

Quote
Did you design that speaker Danny?


Only the crossover.

Quote
If so, pointing to your own measurements is hardly convincing.   The point of a review is that it SHOULD be unbiased.    When your involved in evaluating your own product, even when its something objective like measurements, it destroys the credibility of the review.

I was not involved in the review. I only measured them. My measurements are objective. They do not lie or have bias.

You can take the measurements of the designer for whatever they are worth, but I really don't think that one on line reviewer adding the measured responses of the speaker to the review is going to detract from his, or anyone else's, subjective evaluation regardless of who took them. His review was not unlike the eight other glowing reviews and industry awards.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 17 Mar 2008, 04:05 pm
Quote
Ok.... I don't understand why it would be an issue to ask them to take it down if it wasn't representative of the speaker.  It would be easy to send them another pair and say hey.... this is the production unit.


That's not my department.

 :lol:

Quote
Did you design that speaker Danny?


Only the crossover.


So... you did the crossover design but didn't have any input into the drivers used?


Quote
If so, pointing to your own measurements is hardly convincing.   The point of a review is that it SHOULD be unbiased.    When your involved in evaluating your own product, even when its something objective like measurements, it destroys the credibility of the review.
Quote
I was not involved in the review. I only measured them. My measurements are objective. They do not lie or have bias.

You can take the measurements of the designer for whatever they are worth, but I really don't think that one on line reviewer adding the measured responses of the speaker to the review is going to detract from his, or anyone else's, subjective evaluation regardless of who took them. His review was not unlike the eight other glowing reviews and industry awards.

I would dispute that.  Would you trust a politician if he counted his own ballot boxes?   He/she could say "my counting is objective and doesn't LIE" and nobody would give him the time of day.   

For the same reason, being involved in taking your own measurements for your own review is not objective.   

Your measurements also have no distortion data.   That is what I was looking at and your telling me that the speaker in question was not representative of the actual product.    Why in the world would you sit around and let them publish something like that if it wasn't the speaker they reviewed?   

I'm not trying to be an A-hole.   The only reason I even saw the review is because one of my speakers was just reviewed by Soundstage and I was browsing through their measurements of other speaker designs for some comparisons.    If the data is bad you would have every right in the world to ask that they remove it.





Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Marbles on 17 Mar 2008, 04:33 pm
Kevin and Danny,hate to break up this(http://www.wildwoodrugby.com/knorpel.gif)
match, but I can't help but think that whatever Jim meant by his post, your exchange isn't what he had in mind..

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: HT cOz on 17 Mar 2008, 04:48 pm
So we're recommending another mfr's speaker in the Salk Circle?  Not exactly cool...anyway based on what I've read about both of them I'd be surprised if the Stratas image as well as the Songtowers.

I have been reading this post from the start and i was wondering from the start what was the purpose of the first post from Jsalk. was? Was  the whole post just a long answer to he question of can you buy a speaker that goes down to 30hrz for less then$2000 or is Mr Salk going to let us determine that there is no speaker in the price range that will fit the bill then introduce a new speaker that will? To tell you the truth i thought maybe that Mr Salk was asking if anyone knew of a speaker that would fit the bill to help the guy get what he wanted in which case recommending other speakers is ok.

ED

I agree.  What is the purpose of the challenge and what are the parameters?  Is it an academic exercise to determine if it is theoretically possible?  Is it an exercise to summarize the current market to determine if such a beast exists?  Does the speaker have to be a passive design?  Does it have to be a full range tower or can you have monitors with a subwoofer?  What kind of Amp will be available to power it?  Does it have to be pretty?  What kind of room is it going to be in and what is the seating arrangement.  Finally, if any challenger that is mentioned is determined to be good and not great then the whole exercise seems pretty ridiculous.

I feel the goal could be meet with a two way bookshelf and subwoofer, but I don’t know if that is an acceptable format.  I also feel that many people would think that a single driver design with a subwoofer could reach the goal.

Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Mar 2008, 04:50 pm
Quote
but I can't help but think that whatever Jim meant by his post, this isn't it.

I agree and if Jim or anyone else would like to split the thread and move part of it elsewhere then that is perfectly fine. As of right now I have no other place to respond.

Quote
So... you did the crossover design but didn't have any input into the drivers used?


Correct. This was Mark's baby.

Quote
For the same reason, being involved in taking your own measurements for your own review is not objective.


It wasn't my review for one. The review was on an AV123 product.

Measurements were provided by request of a pair of those speakers. Several sets were sent out for review and they were reviewed by four different reviewers for the same on line magazine. One of the pairs reviewed was the pair that was measured by me (I think).

Whether they decide to post any manufacturers measurements has no bearing the subjective evaluation of all of those reviewers. It is simply additional information.

Quote
Your measurements also have no distortion data.   That is what I was looking at and your telling me that the speaker in question was not representative of the actual product.    Why in the world would you sit around and let them publish something like that if it wasn't the speaker they reviewed?


Kevin, I agree, but none of that is within my control nor is it my place to intervene.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 17 Mar 2008, 04:53 pm
Kevin and Danny,hate to break up this(http://www.wildwoodrugby.com/knorpel.gif)
match, but I can't help but think that whatever Jim meant by his post, your exchange isn't what he had in mind..



I certainly didn't intend to create an issue.   Feel free to nuke my post if you or Jim feel its disruptive.   

Danny and I can argue about it in private.   


Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Marbles on 17 Mar 2008, 04:55 pm
Actually, I'm powerless here...I just wanted to post that gif  :lol:
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Cacophonix on 17 Mar 2008, 05:22 pm
Yup .. it's a good idea to split this thread, and throw this challenge to the wider AC community.

I'm sure there are several designers who will be willing to take a crack at this.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: jsalk on 17 Mar 2008, 05:24 pm
A few comments...

First, I do not mind posts on any topic since open discussions shed light on alternative points of view and can help people sort fact from fiction.

Second, the word "challenge" in the topic referred to the challenge any speaker designer would face meeting ALL of funkmonkey's criteria.  He originally emailed me asking for recommendations and I responded by saying I doubted he would find what he was looking for.  When he mentioned my email response on his thread, a request was made to post it, which I did.

Here is his thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=995082 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=995082)

When people read it, they recommended I share it here as well (which I also did).

As I indicated in the original post, there are many good speakers on the market for $2000, some of which may meet his requirement for bass extension to a solid 30Hz. At the same time, they may fall short in other areas.  I tried to explain why I thought this would be the case.

I have not heard the mini Stratas.   I'm sure Danny did his usual great job of crossover design and they may well be the speaker that funkmonkey was originally looking for (if so, I would be the first to admit I was wrong).  If so, they would certainly dominate the speaker world and put a lot of high end companies out of business.  But not having heard them, I can't comment further (and wouldn't anyway).

As to whether or not I posted the original thread as a lead-up to the introduction of a speaker that would meet funkmonkey's requirements, the answer is no.  As I indicated, I just do not believe it is possible.  A "great" speaker that does everything EXTREMELY well and covers the frequency range down to 30Hz requires, among other things, great drivers.  The cost of these drivers alone will prevent hitting the $2000 target price in a commercial product, especially one selling at retail.

If it were possible, there would be no point in designing a speaker that exceeds that price.  Yet there are a myriad of designs on the market at ten times that price and more.  Some of them may be a tad over-priced.  But many of them tout performance and quality that fully justifies their price.

In short, speaker design is all about balancing trade-offs.  In this case, the $2000 price point will impose trade-offs that I believe will prevent any talented speaker designer from meeting funkmonkey's total criteria.

In the end, after reading a new post on his thread this morning, it appears that funkmonkey may have found what he was looking for.  He just had to make a trade-off of his own and spend a little more than he originally wanted.  But all is well that ends well.

- Jim





Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: BrianM on 17 Mar 2008, 05:41 pm
Wow, that was a great response Jim.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Nick V on 17 Mar 2008, 06:14 pm
Well said, I didn't mean to start a war.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 17 Mar 2008, 06:35 pm
Good form Jim.

And Danny... I'm sorry for making a stink out of this.    I certainly disagree about some things I mentioned but I had no business bringing it into this forum.

In terms of the original post, I don't think there is any magic involved getting to 30Hz but I'll stay out of this.   I'm a numbers guy and would want a more tightly defined goal.   It would be more meaningful to say  30Hz, anechoic, with <5% THD @ 100dB/1M.     Otherwise we could be talking apples/oranges all day long.

 

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: buzzy on 17 Mar 2008, 08:38 pm
Pinning it down that way might open up a branch of discussion.

But for most, I'd suggest not losing track of the bigger picture elements in the original discussion; and remembering the context that created it.

To some degree it was meant as broad and practical advice for someone auditioning speakers, to broadly explain some tradeoffs and point out a few hazards.  For example, how it's all too easy to focus on the few things that are quantified, such as frequency response numbers, and lose track of the real but not quantified differences in the midrange. 
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: AliG on 17 Mar 2008, 08:46 pm
Indeed, I don't think there's any magic getting down to 30Hz, I can find a driver that cost $50 and go down to 30Hz, but it's a poor quality 30Hz we're talking about.. :lol: :lol:

Jim's words should not be taken as saying that "it is not possible to get down to 30Hz with $2000 budget".

Rather it's about can you get down to good quality 30Hz without sacrificing other parts of speaker design, and yet keep the budget to below $2000?

If there are such speakers, why on earth are we spending more than $2000 buying speakers? :lol:




In terms of the original post, I don't think there is any magic involved getting to 30Hz but I'll stay out of this.   
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 17 Mar 2008, 08:51 pm
Indeed, I don't think there's any magic getting down to 30Hz, I can find a driver that cost $50 and go down to 30Hz, but it's a poor quality 30Hz we're talking about.. :lol: :lol:

Jim's words should not be taken as saying that "it is not possible to get down to 30Hz with $2000 budget".

Rather it's about can you get down to good quality 30Hz without sacrificing other parts of speaker design, and yet keep the budget to below $2000?

If there are such speakers, why on earth are we spending more than $2000 buying speakers? :lol:




In terms of the original post, I don't think there is any magic involved getting to 30Hz but I'll stay out of this.   

Define good quality.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: AliG on 17 Mar 2008, 08:53 pm
You just wrote it! 30Hz, anechoic, with <5% THD @ 100dB/1M :thumb: :thumb:

Define good quality.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kevin Haskins on 18 Mar 2008, 02:34 am
The low-frequency side of that is fairly easy.   I'd wouldn't aim for 30Hz anechoic because you would end up a little hot in-room but go for something like 35-40hz F3, and 1.2-1.5 cubic feet with either PRs or a port and and OEM can get there for less than $100 in the actual cost of the drivers (in volume).    The tradeoff is with sensitivity because reaching that deep in that size enclosure will net you a driver that is about  85-86dB/1W/1M.   

THD numbers would be pretty tough to maintain at that level but its doable.   I pulled those numbers out of my butt anyway so I'm not sure keeping within them is necessary for "great sound quality". 





 

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Zero on 18 Mar 2008, 03:06 am
Given his impressions of the Hawk (a remarkable speaker when done right), I'd suspect the Totem Forest may be his huckleberry. It's way out of his price-range brand new, but used - he'll have some cash left over... along with a big smile on the face.

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: hotroady on 6 Apr 2008, 07:58 pm
My years of experience at this tells me that far too many people are searching for deeper bass in their loudspeakers while overlooking the fact that the equipment ahead of the speakers simply is not reproducing the last two octaves down cleanly or transparently.  If you get everything ahead of the speakers really working well, almost always you will hear significantly cleaner and deeper bass than you did before from the same old speakers, assuming they were good ones in the first place and that the listening room is decent.

For example, a great speaker like the HT3 will not play clean musical bass if driven by an inadequate source system.  The Songtower will go deeper and cleaner than you would believe if the electronics give it a chance.



Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine


I just auditioned an U70 amp at Frank's bussiness. I brought my smallish Klispsh RB-25's. I always intended to amp my Klipschs with tubes, I should of done it sooner. The bass was at least an octive lower, it was better bass, that seemed to pump out the sides of the bi-wired speakers. I said to Frank, " I never heard them make that much bass! He remarked, "if bass is made right, it sounds that way" refering to his U70 circuitry. Frank said, "very good little speaker, it was a good idea to bring them over..I get a chance to listen to what's new out there."  Actually the speaker's are about 5 years, old..but I know he meant new to him. Audition amps with your speaker, is the moral of this story.      Andy
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: BrianM on 6 Apr 2008, 08:45 pm
I would love to audition the U70 some time.  But Frank's FetValve amp is the best I've heard yet for anything approaching a rational price.  Before I bought one I asked Frank how much he thought I'd need to spend to better it, and he replied, "maybe add another zero to the price."  I thought he was being, you know, biased (well, he was!), but I've actually come to believe it.  Anyway I would confirm that your speakers can have unlocked bass potential.  My old F30s sure did.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: funkmonkey on 13 Apr 2008, 09:21 pm
Just thought I would chime in here, since I am the guy that Jim sent the original e-mail to.  I listened to a lot of speakers in the last few months and about a third of the way through, I gave up on finding what I wanted, for under $2,000.  Once I started listening to speakers that were more in the $4-5,000-ish range I started to hear what I was looking for.  With Jim's explanation I realized that my initial search may have been a little naive.  You guys can argue all you want about the practicality or necessity of what I was looking for, but the bottom line is: that is what I want. 

Thanks to all of you who stopped in over at AVS, and actually took the time to read my thread.  My solution to the $2000 challenge was to forget the initial budget and spend the money to get what I wanted, soundwise.  For me it was a pair of HT3's.  Jim set up an audition for me with a local owner because he thought that the HT3's were what I was looking for, and that hearing them would be a good reference point for me as I continued my search.  At no time did he try and "sell" me the HT3's, but after I had heard them I quickly realized that I would be happy with nothing less than a pair of my own.  I gave him my deposit about a week after I had heard them. :thumb: Now I am anxiously waiting for the their arrival  :drool:  Someone posted in the beginning of this thread about the DIY option, and it is my opinion that DIY would be the only way to get the sound I was looking for for under $2g's, even then that may be a stretch.  The SongTowers came very close, as did the Totem Hawks, but once I had heard the HT3's there really was no contest.  Game Over.  I win, my wallet lost.  :duh:

Thank you also for the continuing support and helpful insights of both Jim Salk, and Dennis Murphy that helped lead me to these fantastic speakers.  You guys are great.  I am proud to join the ranks of Salk Sound speaker owners.

Cheers,
Funk
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Kris on 13 Apr 2008, 10:04 pm
You mentioned DIY, but another great way to meet your 2k challenge is buying used. But i agree, if you have the money, diy and used hunting is too much work.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Nuance on 14 Apr 2008, 10:25 pm
So here's a question:  Given that the Song Tower, in my opinion, does everything "right" excluding bass extension to (or below) 30Hz, how close to the HT3's would they come when paired with capable subwoofer such as a SongSub, an Epik Caslte, an eD A5-350 or a MFW-15?  I know I'd be missing the real top end sparkle and smoothness of the ribbon tweeter, but I figured it was worth an ask. 

Oh, and I finally settled on a pair of Santos Rosewood Song Tower's.  I too have had a speaker thread over at AVS in which I was looking for the "perfect speaker" to my ears (see below).  Well, I did find those speakers, and the Song Tower's they are.   :thumb:  I chose to stick to my budget, however.  And while I do realize there is no perfect speaker in the $2000 or less price range, I am willing to accept the trade off of not having 20Hz bass extension.  After all, the ST's do everything else perfect for a speaker costing less than $2000.

Kudos to Jim and Dennis for engineering such an amazing product!  My $2000 challenge has indeed been met (well, maybe a little higher when factoring in the price of a subwoofer).   :lol:

Here's the link to that thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919069
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 15 Apr 2008, 01:17 pm
Quote
Just thought I would chime in here, since I am the guy that Jim sent the original e-mail to.  I listened to a lot of speakers in the last few months and about a third of the way through, I gave up on finding what I wanted, for under $2,000.  Once I started listening to speakers that were more in the $4-5,000-ish range I started to hear what I was looking for.  With Jim's explanation I realized that my initial search may have been a little naive.  You guys can argue all you want about the practicality or necessity of what I was looking for, but the bottom line is: that is what I want. 

Thanks to all of you who stopped in over at AVS, and actually took the time to read my thread.  My solution to the $2000 challenge was to forget the initial budget and spend the money to get what I wanted, soundwise.  For me it was a pair of HT3's.  Jim set up an audition for me with a local owner because he thought that the HT3's were what I was looking for, and that hearing them would be a good reference point for me as I continued my search.  At no time did he try and "sell" me the HT3's, but after I had heard them I quickly realized that I would be happy with nothing less than a pair of my own.  I gave him my deposit about a week after I had heard them. :thumb: Now I am anxiously waiting for the their arrival  :drool:  Someone posted in the beginning of this thread about the DIY option, and it is my opinion that DIY would be the only way to get the sound I was looking for for under $2g's, even then that may be a stretch.  The SongTowers came very close, as did the Totem Hawks, but once I had heard the HT3's there really was no contest.  Game Over.  I win, my wallet lost.  :duh:

Thank you also for the continuing support and helpful insights of both Jim Salk, and Dennis Murphy that helped lead me to these fantastic speakers.  You guys are great.  I am proud to join the ranks of Salk Sound speaker owners.

Cheers,
Funk

With the name of Marty FUNK I felt I should throw in a post:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14112)

so now there's more FUNK with them HT3's.   8)

(the HT3's are much clearer and revealing than my photo)
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: TomS on 15 Apr 2008, 01:33 pm
Marty,

That is still one of the most beautiful veneer jobs I've ever seen on a speaker (Tineo?).  It's also nice to see someone else still has one of those 250lb+ XBR's sitting around too (yes, I do).  Very nice looking system. 

Congrats to you too Funk!  You'll absolutely love them.

Tom
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 15 Apr 2008, 01:42 pm
Quote
Marty,

That is still one of the most beautiful veneer jobs I've ever seen on a speaker (Tineo?).  It's also nice to see someone else still has one of those 250lb+ XBR's sitting around too (yes, I do).  Very nice looking system. 

Congrats to you too Funk!  You'll absolutely love them.

Tom

With the new speakers etc. we had to move the TV a couple of feet,  :bawl:  WHEW!!! We'll keep this one until it take's a _____, but in addition to the improved video, will really appreciate getting all that space back with a wall mount.

And yes, that is Tineo, thanks.
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: DMurphy on 15 Apr 2008, 03:29 pm

"With the name of Marty FUNK I felt I should throw in a post:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14112)

so now there's more FUNK with them HT3's."

I know you won't give up the speakers, but could you ship me out the rug?   Really nice.    

Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: martyo on 15 Apr 2008, 03:48 pm
Quote
I know you won't give up the speakers, but could you ship me out the rug?   Really nice.

My wife flew back from Baton Rouge with it. $50 at an antique (junk) store. They lost her luggage but the rug made it.  :lol:
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: Nuance on 17 Apr 2008, 11:51 pm
Presumably you've heard the HT3s?  It's fair to say it would depend on your listening room.  Getting a subwoofer well-integrated is usually a challenge.  Obviously Jim wouldn't design a "SongSub" if he didn't think it could work, but he also designed the SongTowers as a good way around needing to use a sub (as are the HT3s).  The advantage of using a subwoofer (or woofers) is the ability to place the bass apart from the mains (imaging vs. bass response); the advantage of using a quarter-wave TL bass, like in the SongTowers, is getting smooth bass response with fewer fussy placement issues (not to mention phase issues).  And it could be that the SongSub is better integrated with sealed (non-ported) SongTowers (I feel like I've read that somewhere??).  Well, I do seem to remember reading that the Veracity QW (another TL design) wasn't ideally suited for subwoofer use, fwiw...

I feel that when your mains extend down to 40Hz or so you're definitely in subwoofer-optional territory.  Especially when you've got an unsealed, ported design (though ports can be plugged of course). And especially especially when the bass is as smooth as the STs' is reported to be.

No sir, I have not heard the HT3's.  I put out a request for an audition but I never heard back.  I have heard the Song Tower's, though - loved them! 

If it were me, if I wanted more bass I'd save for the HT3s, which would be a bona fide upgrade, instead going through the hassle of mating subwoofer to STs.  I've found that a lot of people go to the trouble of getting that sub, and then they leave it off most of the time because the mains do such a great job (for music listening as opposed to HT that is).  (Or maybe it's because the subwoofer does an imperfect job..) That's assuming the HT3s would work just as well in my listening room -- they produce a lot of bass and have very flat frequency response, so good room treatments are essential.

Well, the HT3's are a bit out of my price range at the moment.  Believe me, I wanted to get an audition and hopefully purchase a pair, but I couldn't.  The ST's will do very nicely, though.  I do, however, still want to mate them with a subwoofer.  I know it won't be easy, but I'll get there. 


Nice choice of wood.  :)

Thank you!  It was actually my wife who picked Rosewood and decided that the Santos was the way to go.  Jim helped me help her...if that makes sense.  :)
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: satfrat on 18 Apr 2008, 01:47 am




Well, the HT3's are a bit out of my price range at the moment.  Believe me, I wanted to get an audition and hopefully purchase a pair, but I couldn't.  The ST's will do very nicely, though.  I do, however, still want to mate them with a subwoofer.  I know it won't be easy, but I'll get there. 



You are not alone with your desire for a subwoofer. I recently hear a set of HT-3 and I plan on hearing them again real soon. Even tho they didn't lack for bass whatsoever, the guy did have a subwoofer placed in the rear of his room that just filled out the room better imo. What I walked away impressed with wasn't the bass as much has the volume capacity in relation to the dynamics of these loudspeakers. I was also totally blown away with Jim's center channel speaker in relation to the HT-3's. It was by far the most seamless integration of 3 front speakers in a multichannel system that I had ever heard.  :thumb:

Cheers,
Robin
Title: Re: The $2000 challenge
Post by: funkmonkey on 18 Apr 2008, 03:22 am
Marty, so you are the lucky recipient of those Tineo HT3s that I still can't stop looking at.  I agree with those being perhaps the most beautiful speakers I have seen.  Congratulations.