Circular H frames anyone? aka O frames

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Bumpy

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Circular H frames anyone? aka O frames
« on: 13 Aug 2020, 06:14 pm »
All H frames I have reviewed have been square profiles. Thinking aloud, but is there any value in a circular (cylindrical) 'H' frame. It will obviously be a larger diameter than the bass driver and generally about 7 inches to front and rear of the driver.

All comments appreciated.
« Last Edit: 14 Feb 2021, 12:31 pm by Bumpy »

joessportster

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #1 on: 16 Aug 2020, 01:01 pm »
Read a thread where a guy did this using concrete forms for the walls. (made of real heavy cardboard) Looked great I tried to find some 16 inch forms but living in rural america none of the stores within 50 (ish) miles had anything above 12"

mikeeastman

Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #2 on: 16 Aug 2020, 03:20 pm »
I've worked with those tubs in construction and for woofer set up I would think you'd have to have some kind of bracing and dampening to make it work.

PDR

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #3 on: 16 Aug 2020, 04:58 pm »
I made a set of GR  super V, the lower subs with a round top......this count ? 8)
They were made hollow and sand filled.....











Since this pic they have become topless and they serve as dual subs....still with the round top




Bumpy

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #4 on: 17 Aug 2020, 11:35 am »
Great ideas there.

It occurs to me that if a bass driver is sufficiently well mounted in a baffle then an H frame added around that bass drivers need not be much more substantial than a pretty light baffle.  People certainly apply this thinking when adding side baffles.

MarvinTheMartian

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #5 on: 17 Aug 2020, 09:38 pm »
Above Middle C  maybe,
but when you have 157 square inches of woofer moving back and forth 3/4 inch at 25HZ ,
the recommended minimum H frame wall thickness is 1 inch.
There is a lot of powerful front to back pressure differential at play here.

Shawn

Bumpy

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #6 on: 17 Aug 2020, 09:44 pm »
Above Middle C  maybe,
but when you have 157 square inches of woofer moving back and forth 3/4 inch at 25HZ ,
the recommended minimum H frame wall thickness is 1 inch.
There is a lot of front to back pressure differential at play here.

Shawn

Thanks Shawn. Good point.

emailtim

Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #7 on: 23 Aug 2020, 06:47 am »
All H frames I have reviewed have been square profiles. Thinking aloud, but is there any value in a circular (cylindrical) 'H' frame. It will obviously be a larger diameter than the bass driver and generally about 7 inches to front and rear of the driver.

All comments appreciated.

FWIW, I experimented with putting 45 degree inserts into standard H-Frame corners to make an octagon port, took measurements and then cove cut concave corner inserts to turn the octagon port into cylindrical ports and took more measurements.  I named the cylindrical version 8-Frames. 

Ports were 13"x13" square versus 13" diameter round.  Drivers were 12".  Frames were 1.5" MDF.

There is something inherently disconcerting about pushing stock diagonally over the top of a spinning table saw blade to make the cove cuts.

Measuring at the mouth of the speakers, I got slightly higher SPL and slightly less distortion at higher frequencies.  I presumed this is due to less port turbulence in the transitioning from the narrowest/horizontal/vertical width(13") to the widest/diagonal width(18.4") of a square port versus a constant (13") diameter cylindrical port. 

13" is the quarter wavelength of @ 262Hz and 18" is the quarter wavelength of @ 180Hz.

The distortion started @ 250Hz and increased as the frequency increased.  Using the H-Frame at lower frequencies did not exhibit the distortion leaving only the slight SPL delta. 

Going from square to octagon made the biggest delta.  Going from octagon to cylinder made a smaller incremental delta.

HTH


Bumpy

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #8 on: 24 Aug 2020, 11:48 am »
Great info. Thanks

Emiel

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #9 on: 28 Aug 2020, 07:44 pm »
The concrete sono tube sounds like a really interesting idea to make a quick and easy open baffle circular H frame subwoofer!

At the bottom of this page, there is an interesting looking wooden circular H-frame baffle:

https://diyaudioprojects.com/Drivers/Alpha-15A/

Bumpy

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #10 on: 29 Aug 2020, 12:16 pm »
The concrete sono tube sounds like a really interesting idea to make a quick and easy open baffle circular H frame subwoofer!

 The problem is that tubes are sold to the building trade several metres long. Its difficult to find say a 40cm length

sfdoddsy

Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #11 on: 7 Oct 2020, 09:53 am »
All H frames I have reviewed have been square profiles. Thinking aloud, but is there any value in a circular (cylindrical) 'H' frame. It will obviously be a larger diameter than the bass driver and generally about 7 inches to front and rear of the driver.

All comments appreciated.

A circular H frame will affect the Bass response, most likely by reducing it due to a smaller front/back difference.

Whether this will matter in the broad scheme of things is something you’ll only learn by measuring.

It may even help depending on crossovers etc.

emailtim

Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #12 on: 7 Oct 2020, 04:43 pm »
A circular H frame will affect the Bass response, most likely by reducing it due to a smaller front/back difference.

Whether this will matter in the broad scheme of things is something you’ll only learn by measuring.

It may even help depending on crossovers etc.

How does "D" shrink when changing the cavity from a cube to a cylinder ?  Front to back length remains the same so "D" should remain the same as in the 2nd diagram.


MJK

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #13 on: 7 Oct 2020, 11:46 pm »
As long as the cross-sectional area is the same, and the depth of each side is the same, a round or square shaped H frame will behave the same at low frequencies where they are intended to be used. Round or square cross-sectional area does not matter, all things being equal.

Bumpy

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #14 on: 9 Jan 2021, 12:29 pm »
Should the internal wall of the H frame be naked and reflective, or would it be best to have an adsorbent acoustic surface?

Bumpy

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #15 on: 1 Feb 2021, 02:08 pm »
I am working on constructing the front section of a circular H frames to fit over the 15" drivers. To experiment I have bought a drum shell which is 18" tall and 20" diameter. The construction material was important to me and this is 8ply birch hot bonded under high pressure in a circular press so that the glue impregnates the ply and makes it very strong.

It is only 10mm thick which I hope will do the job for a number of reasons

1. It very strong and I never see the cones of my bass drivers move during normal listening so don't imagine the pressure waves to be too 'destructive'
2. Being derived from a musical instrument it will have a good sonic pedigree
3. A circle is much less liable to resonate than a flat sided box.
4. Being wood it can be cut and drilled for fitting
5. It is birch ply which is the same material as my main baffle
6. It wont add too much more weight to my speakers which are already very heavy.

To avoid quarter wave resonances each hoop will be 7.5" deep









Bumpy

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #16 on: 10 Feb 2021, 12:53 pm »
Drum shell just arrived. Its in Covid quarantine at present  :D




goggle1824

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #17 on: 10 Feb 2021, 05:57 pm »
Really cool idea here, I will be following along closely.

Bumpy

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #18 on: 12 Feb 2021, 03:06 pm »
Very interesting. Being a bit impatient I propped the entire cylinder in front of one of my 15" drivers. Now I read the King equations which suggest a maximum length of structure ahead of the driver should be no more than 7-8 inches to avoid quarter wave reflections. Here I was with 18 inches of cylinder ahead of the driver and no evidence of distortion or echoes. Do those equation only apply to H frames which have parallel sides.

http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/U_and_H_Frames.pdf



goggle1824

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Re: Circular H frames anyone?
« Reply #19 on: 12 Feb 2021, 03:58 pm »
Deleted, redundant post.