[sedge]

Gregor
Not sure what the max spl of the2x3 ply panel would be with a higher power exciter , mine are 10watt only and get hot if pushed,if 1inch poly is used they will go as loud as you can stand without getting warm.
I have no way of giving 1w/1m measurements all I can say is I only use a small t amp to power them.
I do thin the area in front of the exciter on the thicker poly panels 5mm to the 25mm sizes ,this helps give the panels a more intimate sound,not sure if this is necessary with the pro sound?
Do you intend to use them for small venues pubs clubs or larger spaces?,what instruments do you intend them to reproduce?acoustic, electronic,everything?
The fact that they have got to be robust enough to take a lot of knocks and bashes is going to be a major problem,but not impossible,you've got a lot of choices to make,but I would suggest you match the exciter to the panel you use ,low power exciter heavy panel not good ! not a great deal of choice for high power exciters ,also have you heard any exciter panels,tectonic or such?.
Steve

Ment to post this on your site

[Gregory Roig]

Probably use with no more than 500 people.  I frequently provide sound for a vocal octet which means 8 open microphones and 4 monitors as well as FOH speakers.  Dipoles might simplify things by doubling as both FOH & monitors.  If they are like the Tectonics they'll be highly feedback resistant which can be quite a problem when running 8 open mics in close proximity.  I might even be able to use 4 condenser mics instead which simplifies even more...

Perhaps best to discuss all of this on ONE thread.  Shall we use the one I started?  (DML open baffle for pro sound)

[Odal3]

Old review of the podium speaker with some interesting comments on room and speaker placement plus comparisons to hearing live music: http://www.stereomojo.com/Podium%20.5%20Speaker%20Review/Podium.5SpeakerReview.htm

[sedge]

Odal3
Thanks for the review , it's very good, and done well, pretty much sums up the podium sound and panels in general , haven't heard then since the first launch of the 1s , I still think the panels are too heavy but stunning sounding anyway .
My panels play electronic music exceedingly well ,with the help of my TLs of course,rock plays pretty good too ,as long as the recording is ok ,bad recordings will sound bad and that's that, not a lot you can do except play it on an older style system ,that's what they were mixed on.
Steve

[sedge]

I think I had better explain what I ment when I said ,a bad recording ,there are a lot of things that the exciter panel will expose ,for instance sometimes vocals or drums are recorded in a separate sound booth , spatially different environments ,also adding echo can be very noticeable ,loud even,electronic sounds can come through very strongly,not a problem normally ,I have a recording that you can hear the echo with distortions and breaking up, you can hear this as it is just fading away in the distance,these problems tend to be lost in the mix with ordinary drive units, the exciter panels seem to thrive on live environments with simple recording techniques , if the people being recorded are recorded in different sounding environments and then put together my ears anyway ,tend to start going a bit funny, something does not sound right,some recordings don't sound right on ordinary speakers either! Over processed I believe is the term .
So not really the panels fault but we have to live with it 
Steve.
PS
Am at this moment listening to black Sabbath ,black Sabbath ,I think this is a great sounding recording ,sounds soooooo  good , sometimes you just get it right

[osssyvan]

Hi everyone,

Decided to join you guys here. Been reading a while and experimenting a bit on DML panels on suggestions found here. So thank you guys!

I currently have 4mm thick (in reality 3,5mm) 600 mm x 1200 mm birch plywood panels in testing. I have to say that I really like the sound that you can get from panels!

My actual speakers open baffles and they sound a bit muffled compared to panels and the omnidirectionality of panels is great! The OB bass is a lot better though as the panels don't run low enough well enough. I don't have any measurement available but they seem full range to me. Some times the panels sound amazing on bass though and sometimes not so much. Haven't yet identified fully why or if it is due some specific frequencies.

I also have xps panels underwork. They sounded more detailed to me than the birch to begin with but very bright. The size is roughly 20mm x 600 mm x 1100 mm. I sanded them and rounded the corners and that already helped on the brightness and the sound. I will try the treatment with glue next. To me the sanding seemed to loose some of the stiffness due to missing the skin from the panel. I think the glue-mix would help on that actually. Also was thinking that some sort of lacquer might also do the trick.

I am planning on building some frame where I can insert different panels and use removable cloth covers to hide the monstrosity inside. Should be fun.

The exciters I have are the DAEX32EP4.

Here is pic of a birch test panel. I used aluminium profile and few pieces of window insulation rubber to suspend the panel. On the back there is also my open baffle.



I think I have to get some measuring device and DSP at some point to play more. I think 2 way with OB bass or sub + panel is the way to go unless some figures good way to make panel sub. Would UMIK, REW and MiniDSP be a good idea?

-Ossi

[Odal3]

Yes, another convert!

Nice work on the stand.  Explain more what you hear on the bad bass. I'm guessing what you hear is either the limit of the thickness of the panel with the chosen volume combined with the effect that you have the panel grounded to the floor via the stand.

Try this when you hear the crappy bass response. Take it out from the frame and hold up the panel  in the air holding it by hand and play it again. Try to hold the panels with as few touch points as you can - for example one or two fingers just on the side. This may not fix the issue but should improve it. You then will have some reference on what to shoot for when creating the stand.

Getting it up from the floor and hanging it make a big impact on the LF frequency response. If you measure the response on a floorstandning panel you will see big peaks and dips in the frequency response. One fix if you want to use the stands is to create a vibration dampening solution between stand and floor but it's not as good as hanging them up. I have had good results with putting moon gel between cedar rings that is placed between stand and floor.

I use REW with a umik-1 and I'm happy with it. Never tried the minidsp boards. Instead I use a software based solution on a Linux box which give me full control and let's me use the DAC of my choice.

[Odal3]

One more thing - I use subs with my panels too. Larger panels can get good output down in the 30 hz range but it doesn't have the same punch as a sub plus the size is not even worth considering from a WAF point of view. 

[osssyvan]

I think they are sometimes lacking in body for bass. My OBs might emphasize them just a bit though.

[guest42212]

I've been using OB's for quite some time, and am considering experimenting with exciters.
Intuitively (to me) they shouldn't work. So obviously I'm missing something.
In my quest I came upon the following:

http://www.daytonaudio.com/media/resources/understanding-and-using-dayton-audio-exciters-revised2.pdf

So.......Using the language (terminologies) in the article, would you comment on your preferred topology(term?)
I.E......
1) panel material (this actually seems pretty covered in this thread)
2) panel mounting
3) exciter mounting (both connection to panel and (if any) auxillary mounting)
4) exciter choice (also pretty well covered)

Thank You

[OB_Newbie]

Hey hitsware... welcome to the thread!  I too come from a OB background as was completely in love with my OB panels (ok... still am) until I began building DML flat panels.  But still can't seem to get enough of the panels... they are just plain fun to listen to.  Don't want to turn of the music.

Throw out everything you know about OB's when it comes to DML's... they don't operate on the same principals for the most part.

Hope everyone answers what they are listening too and what works for them.  Here are my responses:

1) panel material.  Prefer 1" XPS, fav panel size is 24"x30" and prefer smaller panels EQed to generate bass down to the 45Hz range then high-passed at 24db/oct as opposed to larger panels (24" x 48").  My next set of experiments will be with PVA|water treated cardboard (nearly soaked).  Also want to treat foam board and layer 2-3 sheets for a sandwich construction... hope for a more dense panel that doesn't have that slight XPS coloration that I hear.

2) panel mounting.  No mounting; minimal suspension/damping.  Mine sit on soft fleece material while the top of the panel leans against rubber bands or soft cloth if the exciter needs the extra damping.
 
3) exciter mounting (both connection to panel and (if any) auxiliary mounting).  VHB that comes with the exciter or Elmer's Probond Advanced once the exciter is removed and needs to be remounted to a panel.

4) exciter choice (also pretty well covered).  For smaller, lightweight XPS panels, the Dayton Audio Ultra is excellent.  Its not great on even thin 1/16, 24"x30" birch ply.  Not good on big/heavier panels.  The Dayton Audio Thruster works better on larger/heaver panels but still sounds good on XPS.   

New developments for me:
I've been advocating OB bass bins and have listened to my OB bass bins and they sounds great with DMLs as you would expect.  But I also recently added a Dayton Audio SUB-800 8" powered sub and at the levels I listen to the sound quality is as good if not better than my KEF Q500s which have very similar LF extension.  I really wanted to see what options exist to build an uber inexpensive DML based system and wanted to see what adding a small sub to enhance the low freq. response would bring to DML panel.  For such little cash, they do add a little punch without impacting the fine DML performance.  Its really been a lot of fun...

[guest42212]

2) panel mounting.  No mounting; minimal suspension/damping.  Mine sit on soft fleece material while the top of the panel leans against rubber bands or soft cloth if the exciter needs the extra damping.
 
3) exciter mounting (both connection to panel and (if any) auxiliary mounting).  VHB that comes with the exciter or Elmer's Probond Advanced once the exciter is removed and needs to be remounted to a panel.

Got pics ?

[Odal3]

For hitsware and other people curious about the DML panels, my advice is just to get one and play around with it at first before trying to optimize panels and sound. When I first got one, I spent the whole evening just walking around with a smile on my face trying out every single box and flat surface I could find in my whole house. It's easy to get a good sounding panel, and there are not really any wrong ways. Once you start figuring out what you like, the trick is to design it around some of the weaknesses of DML to achieve the sound you like. Some may come to the conclusion that they don't like certain characteristics of the DML (ugly large panels in the living room is probably at the top of that list or lack of pin-point image), but others like myself can't get enough of it.  Since it is so easy to experiment and one can hear the result almost immediately, it makes it very addicting to continue pursuing better and better results. What if I do it like this, what if change that, etc.

Getting an exciter cost about $20 plus shipping or even less if you choose a lower powered one. They come with pre-attached VHB tape so you don't even have to use glue. The exciter can be removed and reattached again.

So don't hesitate - just get one! You will be surprised since the great sound doesn't match what the eyes tell you - a $20-40 panel is not supposed to sound this good.

One exciter to add to the list is DAEX30HESF-4. I'm going back and forth if I like this one better than the thruster model,  DAEX32EP-4

Hope you will give the DML a try!

[OB_Newbie]

Odal is wise!  I think we all can agree to this!!! 

[OB_Newbie]

2) panel mounting.  No mounting; minimal suspension/damping.  Mine sit on soft fleece material while the top of the panel leans against rubber bands or soft cloth if the exciter needs the extra damping.
 
3) exciter mounting (both connection to panel and (if any) auxiliary mounting).  VHB that comes with the exciter or Elmer's Probond Advanced once the exciter is removed and needs to be remounted to a panel.

Got pics ?

Here are picks of my 24" x 30" 1 inch thick XPS panels (bare) with mid-century inspired ( ) stands...







Ask any questions...

[OB_Newbie]

Hi everyone,

Decided to join you guys here. Been reading a while and experimenting a bit on DML panels on suggestions found here. So thank you guys!

I currently have 4mm thick (in reality 3,5mm) 600 mm x 1200 mm birch plywood panels in testing. I have to say that I really like the sound that you can get from panels!

My actual speakers open baffles and they sound a bit muffled compared to panels and the omnidirectionality of panels is great! The OB bass is a lot better though as the panels don't run low enough well enough. I don't have any measurement available but they seem full range to me. Some times the panels sound amazing on bass though and sometimes not so much. Haven't yet identified fully why or if it is due some specific frequencies.

I also have xps panels underwork. They sounded more detailed to me than the birch to begin with but very bright. The size is roughly 20mm x 600 mm x 1100 mm. I sanded them and rounded the corners and that already helped on the brightness and the sound. I will try the treatment with glue next. To me the sanding seemed to loose some of the stiffness due to missing the skin from the panel. I think the glue-mix would help on that actually. Also was thinking that some sort of lacquer might also do the trick.

I am planning on building some frame where I can insert different panels and use removable cloth covers to hide the monstrosity inside. Should be fun.

The exciters I have are the DAEX32EP4.

Here is pic of a birch test panel. I used aluminium profile and few pieces of window insulation rubber to suspend the panel. On the back there is also my open baffle.



I think I have to get some measuring device and DSP at some point to play more. I think 2 way with OB bass or sub + panel is the way to go unless some figures good way to make panel sub. Would UMIK, REW and MiniDSP be a good idea?

-Ossi

Nice looking panels Ossi! 

hey... for quick and VERY inexpensive measurements (assuming you have an iPhone) I use the Dayton Audio iMM-6 Calibrated mic with Audio Tools (to apply the calibration file essentially) and the RTA from Audio RTA which has 1/12 octave resolution which is typically what I measure in with Omnimic.  Its surprisingly accurate for the money... its just handy...

[guest42212]

Thanks ! ...........  I gotta try it ........... Parts Express here I come !

http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/loudspeaker-components/loudspeaker-drivers-by-series/exciters/daex25fhe-4-framed-high-efficiency-25mm-exciter.html

Ordered 3 each. (I like they have the bolt holes in case?)

[Odal3]

Here are picks of my 24" x 30" 1 inch thick XPS panels (bare) with mid-century inspired ( ) stands...

I like the stands. Nice job! Now you just have to paint them pink and call it a day.

[Odal3]

Thanks ! ...........  I gotta try it ........... Parts Express here I come

[Odal3]

Did some experimenting last night with smaller panels and for ease of testing I glued the back of the exciter to a wood spine and used VHB between panel and exciter. Realized that in this setup the spine also makes sound and that having the back fixed creates a little bit of vibration problem for <130hz since the forced pushed back has nowhere to go than forward