AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: Joe Frances on 15 Nov 2018, 10:50 pm
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Who among us would feel sufficiently expert (perhaps other than Jim and Dennis) to opine on whether: (1) powered speakers are the "future" of audio?; or (2) powered speakers have already passed passive speakers in terms of the market and ease of use? or (3) powered speakers are for "easy listening" and will never, or not in our lifetimes, replace passive speakers with good amplification and cables and whatnot for high quality audiophile listening; or finally (4) we don't know where this is all going.
I admit, as an old dog trying to learn a new trick, I am lost in the tech jungle. My own bias is that powered speakers are no fun when you think about all the gizmos you can spend/waste money on. And besides wouldn't the last remaining audio magazines go out of business? This is a bit tongue in cheek.
Thanks.
Joe
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Does "powered" also imply "wireless?"
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I've been semi-interested is his Powerplay monitors for a long time, but it's a bit pricey in my budget.
Does anyone here have them or have listened to them?
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Hi Joe, I don’t feel sufficiently expert, but do have an opinion ;)
I think that increased use of active crossovers in high-end speaker design will lead to increasing availability of high end “powered speakers”.
Multi-channel amplification for active crossovers places additional gain and phase matching requirements between channels that makes end-user supplied amplifiers problematic. Most active crossover speaker systems are therefore either powered (integrated amp) or supplied with dedicated external amps.
I’m sure many will dislike the loss of control and ability to select speaker cables etc. but IMO the end result is better as the speaker designer is best placed to select an ideal matching amplifier and speaker cables become so short as to be almost irrelevant. (I heard a gasp!)
If you then digitally couple the powered speakers to the music data source you get rid of a plethora of signal quality issues that otherwise cost a lot of money to avoid in analog systems. (I heard another gasp!)
Clearly, I’m not precious about maintaining an analog signal chain.
To sum up and address your questions: yes, I think powered speakers will have an increasing presence in the high-end audio market, they are certainly easy to use and while they are great for “easy listening”, I can see no reason they could not sit amongst the worlds best loudspeakers given the right component pedigree.
Please be kind ;)
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I'm surprised powered speakers haven't already taken off due to advances in Class D amplification and wireless technology. I would love to simplify my system to a point where there's just a pair of high quality powered speakers and a phone app.
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There are already high-end active speakers out there by companies such as PSI Audio, ATC, PMC, Genelec, Kii Three, Grimm, Barefoot, Quested, certain Genelec/Focal/Neumann/Adam models. All of these have a solid base in high-end studios, but they can also be used in home environment for playback. You can get nearfields to midfields to massive mains, all at a high-end level. Some of these very pricey as well!
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There are already high-end active speakers out there by companies such as PSI Audio, ATC, PMC, Genelec, Kii Three, Grimm, Barefoot, Quested, certain Genelec/Focal/Neumann/Adam models. All of these have a solid base in high-end studios, but they can also be used in home environment for playback. You can get nearfields to midfields to massive mains, all at a high-end level. Some of these very pricey as well!
Audiophiles typically don't invest in studio monitors for lots of reasons. Danny at GR Research just started discussing the design of powered studio monitors for both the studio engineer and audiophiles: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160647.0
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Who among us would feel sufficiently expert (perhaps other than Jim and Dennis) to opine on whether: (1) powered speakers are the "future" of audio?; or (2) powered speakers have already passed passive speakers in terms of the market and ease of use? or (3) powered speakers are for "easy listening" and will never, or not in our lifetimes, replace passive speakers with good amplification and cables and whatnot for high quality audiophile listening; or finally (4) we don't know where this is all going.
I admit, as an old dog trying to learn a new trick, I am lost in the tech jungle. My own bias is that powered speakers are no fun when you think about all the gizmos you can spend/waste money on. And besides wouldn't the last remaining audio magazines go out of business? This is a bit tongue in cheek.
Thanks.
Joe
Hey Joe, I have been using powered speakers for about 15 years and would recommend them for so many reasons.
All you need to do is get down to a local Guitar Center and listen for yourself. You will save $$$$ on separate amps and speaker wire. Here sia pic of my 14.1 Auro 3D setup with all paradigm Reference Active speakers. If I were shopping today I would head straight to the local Guitar Center and start auditioning active monitors from JBL and Yamaha.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152962)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161766)
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BTW, I have 13 active speakers in my system. Each one is biamped, separate internal amps for the woofer and the tweeter. That is 26 channels of amplification. I can't imagine being able to have a system like this if I had to buy four 7 channel amps and run all that speaker wire. I just have a single Mogami XLR cable run from my Marantz pre/pro to each speaker.
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This is an interesting topic and one I have spent a good deal of time contemplating.
My first pair of powered monitors were Genelec's purchased in the mid-80's for my recording studio. I was amazed both at their performance and the simplicity of using a self-powered monitor. But for us, the product potential, at this point in time, is simply not there.
Every once and a while we get an email or call from someone living in an efficiency apartment in New York (or elsewhere). They don't have room for a rack of equipment and not much room for speakers either. So I thought that if we developed a self-powered monitor, there might be a market for it.
The first thing I noticed when working on this design (PowerPlay Monitors) was that the frequency response we were able to obtain was flatter than any speaker we had ever done.
(http://salksound.com/gallery/PowerPlay Monitors/fr.jpg)
We could create filters for every dip and peak in the response curve and generate a far flatter plot than possible with a more standard passive crossover design.
This monitor allows a customer to plug in a TV, CD Player and computer into the monitors and they would automatically switch to the input providing a signal. The volume could also be controlled with a remote. (In my setup, I have a StreamPlayer hooked to the PowerPlay Monitors via USB and that is all I need for a music playback system.)
Soon after finishing the design, we brought a pair to a local audiophile group meeting. When we brought them in, most attendees were less-than-enthused about the concept. When we played them, however, attitudes changed dramatically. But yet, no one seemed to be willing to ditch their DAC/Preamp/Amp setup to move in this direction.
So far, I can count the pairs of PowerPlay Monitors we have sold on zero fingers...we haven't sold any, despite the fact that they are the most accurate monitors we have done to date and perfect for the application I had in mind.
I had a discussion on the topic about a year ago with a customer who happens to be a lawyer in NYC. He suggested showing them at the Bronx Flea Market. He thought if you sold a set of self-powered speakers to someone living in an apartment complex, that customer would play them for other tenants and, before long, everyone in that complex would want a pair. It is all about "lifestyle." I tend to agree with his assessment. The market for self-powered speakers is the "lifestyle" market, not the audiophile market.
Self-powered monitors are well accepted in the recording industry. But recording engineers do not necessarily hang out on audiophile sites either. So you have the studio market and the lifestyle market - neither of which we currently do business in.
I think that, in the future, speakers will tend to be self-powered. It just makes sense. But the audiophile world is not quite ready to fully embrace the concept. They want their favorite DAC, their preamp and their amp, and it will take a while for this to change. So we will continue to do one-off self-powered designs, but for the next few years, it is probably not anything we will promote. Our current customer base has relatively little interest in this product segment.
At least that is the way we see from here.
- Jim
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Jim thanks for that. It kind of confirms that even though I have gone against the grain building my system active it is a very good choice. I would much prefer an engineer like you pick all the components for me, synergize and optimize them into a "system", test it and let me buy it off the shelf for LESS money than I could build it from separates myself.
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The market for self-powered speakers is the "lifestyle" market, not the audiophile market.
Well, there you go. This statement says it all.
In the "lifestyle" market, their primary concern isn't squeezing out the last 1% of audio fidelity. They care about small size, ease of use, and moderate cost. Audiophiles want big stuff (floor standing speakers, huge monoblocks, etc.), complicated setups (lots of separate components, ICs and PCs), and relatively higher costs (the lifestylers would never pay $1,500 for a power cord).
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So far, I can count the pairs of PowerPlay Monitors we have sold on zero fingers...we haven't sold any, despite the fact that they are the most accurate monitors we have done to date and perfect for the application I had in mind.
- Jim
:o
Well, that answers my question!
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Hi Joe, I don’t feel sufficiently expert, but do have an opinion ;)
I think that increased use of active crossovers in high-end speaker design will lead to increasing availability of high end “powered speakers”.
Multi-channel amplification for active crossovers places additional gain and phase matching requirements between channels that makes end-user supplied amplifiers problematic. Most active crossover speaker systems are therefore either powered (integrated amp) or supplied with dedicated external amps.
I’m sure many will dislike the loss of control and ability to select speaker cables etc. but IMO the end result is better as the speaker designer is best placed to select an ideal matching amplifier and speaker cables become so short as to be almost irrelevant. (I heard a gasp!)
If you then digitally couple the powered speakers to the music data source you get rid of a plethora of signal quality issues that otherwise cost a lot of money to avoid in analog systems. (I heard another gasp!)
Clearly, I’m not precious about maintaining an analog signal chain.
To sum up and address your questions: yes, I think powered speakers will have an increasing presence in the high-end audio market, they are certainly easy to use and while they are great for “easy listening”, I can see no reason they could not sit amongst the worlds best loudspeakers given the right component pedigree.
Please be kind ;
I will be kind. Thank you for your thoughts on the subject. I, for one, am merely curious as I have been back into audio for about a year now, and I am trying to assess where to put my money, for the best long-term "pleasuarability" benefit, if I can make up that word. I still love separates, and all the accoutrement of audio, but I started in this hobby back when turntables and tone arms and cartridges were all the rage. I think for a two-channel "purist" passive is still the way to go. But I wanted to find out if I was all wrong on that front. This has been a really good dialogue.
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I am surprised at the lack f Powerplay sales. I went with Kef LS 50Ws because I was familiar with the sound of the passive version and could get a deal to on a used pair. I like not having to mess with the big amp an preamp and lots of cables. I almost got some Kii Threes (used) last year but lacked the funds so bought the Kefs instead. I have a pair of active Quad monitors for my keyboard and a set of Emotive Airmotivs for casual vinyl playback with and old B&O table. Makes for a simple, clean system. Active seems like the future. Options for active crossovers might be a good way to ease the way towards more widespread acceptance among audiophiles.
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Well, there you go. This statement says it all.
In the "lifestyle" market, their primary concern isn't squeezing out the last 1% of audio fidelity. They care about small size, ease of use, and moderate cost. Audiophiles want big stuff (floor standing speakers, huge monoblocks, etc.), complicated setups (lots of separate components, ICs and PCs), and relatively higher costs (the lifestylers would never pay $1,500 for a power cord).
...and audiophiles would rather pay $10K for the pleasure of playing mad scientist with boxes and wires than get a streamer and a set of salk power monitors for less than half the dough. Makes sense to me :scratch:
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...and audiophiles would rather pay $10K for the pleasure of playing mad scientist with boxes and wires than get a streamer and a set of salk power monitors for less than half the dough. Makes sense to me :scratch:
The pursuit of an audiophile is an expensive hobby. It's not supposed to make sense.
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First allow me to define "active" versus "powered" speakers. Powered speakers are similar to passive (the type of speakers found in most home audio systems), except that they have the amp mounted inside the speaker. Active speakers have one channel of amplification connected directly to each driver and the crossover is schematically located between the preamp/source and those amplifiers. The Sales are active.
Active design allows for the crossover to be low voltage and as such can be much more sophisticated, even incorporating DSP plus the amps "see", and can react to, the driver load much better (and more efficiently). Both active and powered design allow the manufacturer (who is in a much better position) to pick or even design the amps and both eliminate the need for speaker cables.
I've used single driver speakers (active by default) for 14 years and have drifted into active studio monitors the past couple of years. Of course 99% your music has been recorded, mixed, and mastered on active speakers. While the purpose of home listening is enjoyment, the purpose of studio listening is to develop as quickly as possible the best, most accurate recording of the performance as deemed by trained ears. Before you approach active speakers you should ask yourself if you're ready for the truth because that's what studio gear is all about, versus home gear which is about entertainment and frankly gear lust.
Currently I own JBL 708P 2-way reference studio monitors that list for $2000 each. Not inexpensive but includes two 250 watt amps, 12 adjustable DSP settings, DAC (for professional digital input/output), and more. They use an in-house 1 inch compression tweeter mounted in a specially designed waveguide for controlled dispersion and a 8 inch ported in-house woofer. Being part of the Harmon family and having been around for over 50 years they have incredible resources available and are about as far from DIY or small time shops as you can get - totally professional. Note that the 708P has cheaper cousins that sound remarkably good starting at $300/pair and a more expensive floor stander of the same family, the M2 that retails for $12,000/pair.
Getting back to the gear lust issue you brought up to start this thread, my system is fairly simple: server, DAC/preamp/streamer, subs, and the JBL's connected with a USB cable and XLR's. That's a turn off for gearheads and a stumbling block for audiophile acceptance who want to pick all their pieces, have a trophy case full of fancy looking equipment, and pick out lots of fat/expensive cables.
If it's been awhile since you where involved in the day to day audio discussions, allow me to introduce a couple more modern concepts: importance of the room and speaker/listener setup. IMO after speakers, the room is the second most important "component" of any system. Proper shape and decent size are essential, no cubes and bigger the better. Of course sound insulation and access to the private use of the room go without saying. Setup should allow for minimizing front/side wall echo for the speakers and back wall echo for the listener.
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Part of the reason for the failure of those speakers is because people don't use speakers like that. I have all my "stuff" running through a receiver, and that receiver then controls the sound through the speakers, switches inputs, etc. To route inputs to the actual speakers is problematic. In my case, my speakers on the opposite side of the room from my gear (the speaker wire and HDMI cable for the TV go underneath the floor). It was challenging enough to do that, and routing inputs to speakers would add a level of complexity to that.
Even if you only have one input to the speakers, that input being driven from the receiver, this is a challenge too. Even if you use line out for the receiver (will my receiver do that?), you then have yet another control for the volume, for the speakers.
I think those speakers are a great idea, but a challenge for normal people to implement.
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I'm currently debating powered vs passive for a 3 way design Jim and Dennis are working on featuring the Be tweeter, AT mid, and 9.5" Satori driver with two 10" passive radiators.
I'm really planning on being done with swapping out speakers for a while (no, really, like really really). That has me leaning towards passives. Incorporating the active amp on the back of the active design increases the likelihood that the speaker won't last me 20 years or so. If Hypex stops making that plate amp and one fails 5 years from now, I'd be stuck with a really nice piece of furniture until I could lug them to Jim or Dennis. So I'm leaning passive, just so I can keep swapping amps out over the years.
Am I crazy??
The other thing I read recommended for any active design is a capacitor in front of the tweeter to protect from any DC spikes from the plate amp. So I guess in that way, passive designs offer some inherent protection already.
-Jon
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I'm really planning on being done with swapping out speakers for a while (no, really, like really really).
Me too!
:lol: HA HA HA HA HA!!!
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As most of us know,Meadowlark is back in business with some attractive Actives, especially the Kite/Predator combo paired with a DSP system that allows for fine tuning for room adjustments. Meadowlark Audio is located not too far from me so I might have to pack up my Bamberg S3s - which I really like btw - and drive to see Pat for an A/B comparison.
http://www.bambergaudio.com/products/series3/3tmw.php
http://meadowlarksings.com
Below, meadowlark’s Pat McGinty comments ... taken from another forum:
“Master speaker designer Joe D'Appolito lays out the basics of taking useful LF measurements:
https://www.audioxpress.com/article/measuring-loudspeaker-low-frequency-response
Back in the day you'd need to spend a bundle on a MLSSA analyzer or equivalent. Now we can get the job done with a Windows based system for just 300 bucks.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...ed-precision-room-measurement-system--390-792
If you're venturing into DSP - which gives you delightfully fine control in the bass - knowing Joe's ideas can make the process of aligning your system so much more fun.”
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Meridian has sold powered for over 30 years. I sold them back in the 80's. I would love to own a set today, but big bucks now. Acoustat first sold their speakers with direct drive tube amps in 1976. I still think they will compete with most speakers today as for clarity and detail. Those was much better than the ones with transformers.
Kii Three is also one I would like to try. Anyone here own a pair?
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I'm currently debating powered vs passive for a 3 way design Jim and Dennis are working on featuring the Be tweeter, AT mid, and 9.5" Satori driver with two 10" passive radiators.
I'm really planning on being done with swapping out speakers for a while (no, really, like really really). That has me leaning towards passives. Incorporating the active amp on the back of the active design increases the likelihood that the speaker won't last me 20 years or so. If Hypex stops making that plate amp and one fails 5 years from now, I'd be stuck with a really nice piece of furniture until I could lug them to Jim or Dennis. So I'm leaning passive, just so I can keep swapping amps out over the years.
Am I crazy??
The other thing I read recommended for any active design is a capacitor in front of the tweeter to protect from any DC spikes from the plate amp. So I guess in that way, passive designs offer some inherent protection already.
-Jon
I would ask do you really want to spend the next 20 years with a speaker that you knew wasn't as flat as the one you could have purchased for LESS money when you include not having to buy am amp or speaker wires.
Let your ears decide what you like, if you are going to live with these speakers for 20 years choose the best available for your budget.
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I would ask do you really want to spend the next 20 years with a speaker that you knew wasn't as flat as the one you could have purchased for LESS money when you include not having to buy am amp or speaker wires.
Let your ears decide what you like, if you are going to live with these speakers for 20 years choose the best available for your budget.
I already have the amp and speaker wires, so cost doesn't matter. And unfortunately I won't be able to audition the active v passive design, so I'll have to pick.
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I've told this story several times over the years here on AC but it's worth repeating:
18 years ago I visited a shop and auditioned Paradigm Studio 20s ($800/pair 2-way passive monitor) versus Paradigm Active 20s ($1600/pair 2-way active monitor using same drivers/cabinet). No comparison! Dynamics just jumped. Flat frequency response (a revelation in itself). Bass was super deep and full. I was gobsmacked by the bass alone. Passersby that we were listening to Studio 100s ($2200/pair multiple driver floor stander), but imaging was better on the the Active 20s. You just couldn't get that sound from any other Paradigm (besides the Active 40).
That's why I've used active (not just powered) speakers for 15 years.
But they also represent great value. The JBL 305 (original) was a stunning active 2-way monitor listing for $300/pair, beating any comparably priced passive monitor. But the 305 Mk2, same list price, will out perform any $1000/pair passive monitor. Again stunningly dynamic, flatter, and more bass. Allowing the manufacturer to design/match amp the driver and give a direct connection (versus clouding the load with additional drivers and a crossover) is a huge advantage.
All that's needed is a source and preamp (optimally with XLR outputs). Even the XLR cables are largely devoid of marketing hype (buy Blue Jean Cable or Mogami if you want what the professionals use). Combination DAC/preamps like Benchmark (~$2000) or Mytek Manhattan ($2000 if you need phono input) can make life even simpler. If you're pure digital the PS Audio DirectStream Junior (currently $2580 through underwoodhifi.com factory direct shipping included) would be a step up by adding streaming so you can use a server connected via an ethernet cable. Dedicated music servers start at $800 from Small Green Computer.
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I already have the amp and speaker wires, so cost doesn't matter. And unfortunately I won't be able to audition the active v passive design, so I'll have to pick.
Reviews helped me a lot when I was in your shoes. I think this is the one that swayed me the most:
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_active40.htm
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I already have the amp and speaker wires, so cost doesn't matter. And unfortunately I won't be able to audition the active v passive design, so I'll have to pick.
I know I am still Rip Van Winkle in the brave new world of audio, but three points come to mind about powered speakers that militate against them for me:
1. What if the amp function within of of the speakers breaks or just stops working after a long time, and the manufacturer is out of business or more likely say they "can't support" the old version of the amp because it is too old?
2. What if you like to modify or adapt the sound of your system to get it warmer or brighter or something? I assume there is nothing you can do with powered speakers. (The only ones I've heard-- except audioengines-- have sounded ok, good, clean, bright, aggressive and anonymous.)
3. What if you want to try tubes or use your older amp that's still good but you don't have other speakers. Out of luck, right?
I may be wrong about these, but thought I would bring up these considerations that hold me back.
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My main concern is the powered dsp amps failing way before the speaker drivers.....other concerns is if that manufacturer goes out of business and or that exact amp model is no longer available....Also lets say that amp model is not available but they have a up grade model would one have to change ALL the amps on the rest of the speakers as well? Or do all dsp amps sound exactly the same?
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I know I am still Rip Van Winkle in the brave new world of audio, but three points come to mind about powered speakers that militate against them for me:
1. What if the amp function within of of the speakers breaks or just stops working after a long time, and the manufacturer is out of business or more likely say they "can't support" the old version of the amp because it is too old?
2. What if you like to modify or adapt the sound of your system to get it warmer or brighter or something? I assume there is nothing you can do with powered speakers. (The only ones I've heard-- except audioengines-- have sounded ok, good, clean, bright, aggressive and anonymous.)
3. What if you want to try tubes or use your older amp that's still good but you don't have other speakers. Out of luck, right?
I may be wrong about these, but thought I would bring up these considerations that hold me back.
1.) Nearly the same argument for integrating any two or more functions into one cabinet. It's a gamble to save now and possibly pay later or just pay more up front. But integration has it's own benefits (saves space, cables, manufacturer picks synergistic matches - assuming you trust the manufacturer enough to buy his gear to start with).
2.) Most cheaper active monitors (under say $500 each or found at Guitar Center) do sound as you described, but when compared to similarly priced passive speakers (when taking the cost of amplification into account) beat the pants off them. Expensive passive speakers sound dull, bloated, colored, and lack detail compared to quality active monitors. Active studio monitors are workhorses, meant to dig into the truth versus home passive speakers that are meant to tickle particular fancies. The question is, are you ready for the truth or do you want to chase your tail to satisfy what entertains you?
3.) Bryston has a solution for those who want active and yet pick their own amps, but it's bulky, complex, very expensive, and could sound like crap when you're done inventing your own recipe.
And besides, active have many sonic advantages, some of which I spelled out above, that make passive obsolete.
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My main concern is the powered dsp amps failing way before the speaker drivers.....other concerns is if that manufacturer goes out of business and or that exact amp model is no longer available....Also lets say that amp model is not available but they have a up grade model would one have to change ALL the amps on the rest of the speakers as well? Or do all dsp amps sound exactly the same?
Amps aren't DSP. Digital Signal Processing is a delay and frequency adjustment to correct for speaker and/or room phase/response issues. It's often applied in software (REW and Dirac Live are popular) but can also be available in the crossovers of active (not powered) speakers.
Again, it's one of the old trade off questions between integration or separates. Save and synergize now taking a risk putting more eggs in the same basket or pay more and go separates, hoping to match/exceed sonics.
Professionals put more value in drivers and type of loading (sealed/ported/etc.) than amps (read soundonsound.com), so shouldn't we?
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I think you're exaggerating the audible differences between a properly designed passive speaker and a competent active speaker, assuming the drivers themselves are reasonably well behaved. That opinionis based on a number of A-B comparisons, one with passive vs active versions of the same speakers. However, an active execution is much more flexible. You don't have to worry about keeping impedance up and you can choose drivers that would be difficult to tame with a passive crossover. I once did a one-off with Jim using the original and gigantic Heil AMT driver in a 2-way. I had to throw everything I could think of to flatten out the Heil's wayward response, and it still wasn't as flat as I would have liked. I probably could have achieved near-perfect linearity with an active crossover.
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My main concern is the powered dsp amps failing way before the speaker drivers.....other concerns is if that manufacturer goes out of business and or that exact amp model is no longer available....Also lets say that amp model is not available but they have a up grade model would one have to change ALL the amps on the rest of the speakers as well? Or do all dsp amps sound exactly the same?
All components fail at some point or another. What would you do if your amp failed or your pre-amp? Get it repaired or replaced. The same with an active speaker. Have you ever bought a subwoofer before? Was it active or passive? Why don't people buy passive subs for the same reasons you mention, that the amp might fail? :scratch:
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I know I am still Rip Van Winkle in the brave new world of audio, but three points come to mind about powered speakers that militate against them for me:
1. What if the amp function within of of the speakers breaks or just stops working after a long time, and the manufacturer is out of business or more likely say they "can't support" the old version of the amp because it is too old?
2. What if you like to modify or adapt the sound of your system to get it warmer or brighter or something? I assume there is nothing you can do with powered speakers. (The only ones I've heard-- except audioengines-- have sounded ok, good, clean, bright, aggressive and anonymous.)
3. What if you want to try tubes or use your older amp that's still good but you don't have other speakers. Out of luck, right?
I may be wrong about these, but thought I would bring up these considerations that hold me back.
1. If the amp breaks in an active speaker you take it to your vendor to repair. It is generally a plate type amp that can be removed and shipped to the vendor if needed. No different than if your regular amp would break.
2. If you want to change the sound of your system use a buffer like the iTube between the pre-amp and speaker.
I found using a better power cord yielded excellent results.
3. See #2 above.
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I've told this story several times over the years here on AC but it's worth repeating:
18 years ago I visited a shop and auditioned Paradigm Studio 20s ($800/pair 2-way passive monitor) versus Paradigm Active 20s ($1600/pair 2-way active monitor using same drivers/cabinet). No comparison! Dynamics just jumped. Flat frequency response (a revelation in itself). Bass was super deep and full. I was gobsmacked by the bass alone. Passersby that we were listening to Studio 100s ($2200/pair multiple driver floor stander), but imaging was better on the the Active 20s. You just couldn't get that sound from any other Paradigm (besides the Active 40).
That's why I've used active (not just powered) speakers for 15 years. [/i]
Those are the exact speakers in my system, thanks for sharing the story. I use the active 40's as bed channels and the active 20's as height channels you see on the stands. I got the Paradigm Shift A2 active speaker for the VOG you see over the sofa:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152962)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161765)
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Some years ago at the defuct SACD.NET forum the kind gentleman CEO from BIS Records Mr.Robert inform us the liked Genelec active speakers that he used in the Bis Mastering studio and he praised the bass transients.
Personally I think active speaker are suited to pro-audio market and passive speaker are suited to hifi home audio.
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Are there any companies making powered Alnico speakers today? That should be the simplest to design.
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Some years ago at the defuct SACD.NET forum the kind gentleman CEO from BIS Records Mr.Robert inform us the liked Genelec active speakers that he used in the Bis Mastering studio and he praised the bass transients.
Personally I think active speaker are suited to pro-audio market and passive speaker are suited to hifi home audio.
I understand why passive speakers are more popular in the home market but why aren't they popular in the pro market? Take a look at this immersive audio setup at Abbey Road using active speakers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162426)
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1.) Nearly the same argument for integrating any two or more functions into one cabinet. It's a gamble to save now and possibly pay later or just pay more up front. But integration has it's own benefits (saves space, cables, manufacturer picks synergistic matches - assuming you trust the manufacturer enough to buy his gear to start with).
2.) Most cheaper active monitors (under say $500 each or found at Guitar Center) do sound as you described, but when compared to similarly priced passive speakers (when taking the cost of amplification into account) beat the pants off them. Expensive passive speakers sound dull, bloated, colored, and lack detail compared to quality active monitors. Active studio monitors are workhorses, meant to dig into the truth versus home passive speakers that are meant to tickle particular fancies. The question is, are you ready for the truth or do you want to chase your tail to satisfy what entertains you?
3.) Bryston has a solution for those who want active and yet pick their own amps, but it's bulky, complex, very expensive, and could sound like crap when you're done inventing your own recipe.
And besides, active have many sonic advantages, some of which I spelled out above, that make passive obsolete.
Hi,
Could you suggest some active speakers that you think highly of? I know you like the cheaper JBL bookshelf 305, but if you have others that are priced higher but are still great values, I'd love to hear.
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi,
Could you suggest some active speakers that you think highly of? I know you like the cheaper JBL bookshelf 305, but if you have others that are priced higher but are still great values, I'd love to hear.
Thanks,
Bill
Well of course you should start your search with the Salk Powered monitors :thumb:
The BIG thing to consider when shopping is how you will use them. Some powered monitors include a DAC and a remote/volume control. If you will be using them in a system that includes a dac and pre-amp all you want is a powered speaker.
The Kef Active LS-50 is an active system including a DAC. For my application in a home theater that would not work. The JBL's are powered monitors which would work fine for a home theater. How will you be using them?
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I understand why passive speakers are more popular in the home market but why aren't they popular in the pro market? Take a look at this immersive audio setup at Abbey Road using active speakers.
The pro-audio market demand a cost effective ready made speaker set with a kind of sound enginers can hear as a standard to made sonic decisions to fast complete the recording, mix or mastering job.
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The pro-audio market demand a cost effective ready made speaker set with a kind of sound enginers can hear as a standard to made sonic decisions to fast complete the recording, mix or mastering job.
In other words they use logic :lol:
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In other words they use logic :lol:
In the past there was no active speakers for pro-audio market,
so as time pass custumers budget and time to made the job decreased and they scream they want a simple to use tool to listen music at low cost and voilá Genelec appeared...
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Hi,
Could you suggest some active speakers that you think highly of? I know you like the cheaper JBL bookshelf 305, but if you have others that are priced higher but are still great values, I'd love to hear.
Thanks,
Bill
JBL is really a cut above company compared to almost any other: length of tenure; depth of research resources; breath of in-house manufactured components; reputation for service. (After nearly 50 years have finally come to the conclusion the company behind the product is very important.) Their 306 and 308 are very similar to the 305 (larger woofer/cabinet). The baby brother of my 708P, the 705P are also part of the same string of controlled directivity models. The big brother is the M2. Jtwrace has been to Harmon HQ and compared them all.
My previous active monitors were Dynaudio BM5 MkIII (2-way with 7" woofer, currently available for $1,000/pair). I liked them very much, just not in the same league as the $4000/pair 708Ps. The Kline and Hummel KH120 (2-way with 5" woofer, about $1400/pair) is a very well regarded active studio monitor. Adam A7X (2-way with 7" woofer and Heil tweeter, roughly $1100/pair) is another good option. All these companies are very well regarded. Other brands have their strengths and weaknesses. I don't see a compelling reason to look much beyond the above.
Of course there are active monitor duds, just like any other product. Trying to build quality tweeters (2), woofers (2), crossovers (2), cabinets (2), and amps (4) for say $500 is a huge challenge, so I don't expect it (except for those remarkable JBL 305/306/308's). I just can't imagine spending less than double the money for separate passives, amp, and cables to approach what you can find in actives.
Witchdoctor's subwoofer argument should make audiophiles wonder why they so casually dismiss active design.
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Nice article on active speakers:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_4/feature-article-active-speakers-12-2002.html
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All components fail at some point or another. What would you do if your amp failed or your pre-amp? Get it repaired or replaced. The same with an active speaker. Have you ever bought a subwoofer before? Was it active or passive? Why don't people buy passive subs for the same reasons you mention, that the amp might fail? :scratch:
In a 7.1 set up I would need to repair or replace 1 amp instead of needing to replace 7 amps on active speakers. Plus with active speakers you would either need to ship all your speakers to the manufacturer to have them replace new amps in them or they could send you the amps and have you do all the work in replacing the amps....With seperates there is way less work and hassels involved...other reasons was manufacturer no longer available and or no longer carry that exact amp.
I have bought over 100 subwoofers (including car audio) both active and passive and the active has failed way before the passive......Most people only use 1 sub in there system so if the amp fails they only need to replace 1 amp instead of all the amps in 7 speakers.... Plus a sub is not a requirement it is OPTIONAL....if you look on Craigslist there a tons of people selling the sub driver they took out of a powered subwoofer because the amp failed....its just common knowlege that electronics with more moving electrical/mechanical parts fail more often then one with less parts....you also see people selling speaker sets and saying selling the speakers because the reciever broke....its just a FACT that the amps fail WAY MORE then speakers....Also I am not biased as even separate components like amps, preamps, integrated amps, receivers, CD/DVD players fail way more pecentage wise then the speakers.
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I've told this story several times over the years here on AC but it's worth repeating:
18 years ago I visited a shop and auditioned Paradigm Studio 20s ($800/pair 2-way passive monitor) versus Paradigm Active 20s ($1600/pair 2-way active monitor using same drivers/cabinet). No comparison! Dynamics just jumped. Flat frequency response (a revelation in itself). Bass was super deep and full. I was gobsmacked by the bass alone. Passersby that we were listening to Studio 100s ($2200/pair multiple driver floor stander), but imaging was better on the the Active 20s. You just couldn't get that sound from any other Paradigm (besides the Active 40).
That's why I've used active (not just powered) speakers for 15 years.
But they also represent great value. The JBL 305 (original) was a stunning active 2-way monitor listing for $300/pair, beating any comparably priced passive monitor. But the 305 Mk2, same list price, will out perform any $1000/pair passive monitor. Again stunningly dynamic, flatter, and more bass. Allowing the manufacturer to design/match amp the driver and give a direct connection (versus clouding the load with additional drivers and a crossover) is a huge advantage.
All that's needed is a source and preamp (optimally with XLR outputs). Even the XLR cables are largely devoid of marketing hype (buy Blue Jean Cable or Mogami if you want what the professionals use). Combination DAC/preamps like Benchmark (~$2000) or Mytek Manhattan ($2000 if you need phono input) can make life even simpler. If you're pure digital the PS Audio DirectStream Junior (currently $2580 through underwoodhifi.com factory direct shipping included) would be a step up by adding streaming so you can use a server connected via an ethernet cable. Dedicated music servers start at $800 from Small Green Computer.
I also heard a demo like that many years ago and was VERY impressed with the active Paradigms.
Last time I bought speakers I had forgotten about that demo. If I had it to do again I would certainly put actives on my shortlist.
Speaking of which, the speakers I have now have active woofers (300 watts each, crossed over at 200hz to passive coax mid/tweeter).
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In a 7.1 set up I would need to repair or replace 1 amp instead of needing to replace 7 amps on active speakers. Plus with active speakers you would either need to ship all your speakers to the manufacturer to have them replace new amps in them or they could send you the amps and have you do all the work in replacing the amps....With seperates there is way less work and hassels involved...other reasons was manufacturer no longer available and or no longer carry that exact amp.
I have bought over 100 subwoofers (including car audio) both active and passive and the active has failed way before the passive......Most people only use 1 sub in there system so if the amp fails they only need to replace 1 amp instead of all the amps in 7 speakers.... Plus a sub is not a requirement it is OPTIONAL....if you look on Craigslist there a tons of people selling the sub driver they took out of a powered subwoofer because the amp failed....its just common knowlege that electronics with more moving electrical/mechanical parts fail more often then one with less parts....you also see people selling speaker sets and saying selling the speakers because the reciever broke....its just a FACT that the amps fail WAY MORE then speakers....Also I am not biased as even separate components like amps, preamps, integrated amps, receivers, CD/DVD players fail way more pecentage wise then the speakers.
If you own a passive sub it still requires an amp that can fail. If you own passive speakers they still require amps, which can fail. I don't think the consumer market are buying passive speakers out of fear that active speakers may fail, I think it is out of ignorance.
Jim Salk just weighed in on his excellent Power Monitors. Bryston also sells both active and passive speakers, guess which ones they think are better?
I agree you can build a fantastic system using passive speakers, it just requires a bigger budget, careful matching of components and a LOT of trial and error. Let's ask 100 Salk speaker owners which amps they chose, what are the odds they all picked the same amp? That means you might get 100 different results, probably all are good but how many will be perfect?
If you get 100 people to buy salk power monitors they will all have "systems" yielding perfectly flat frequency response and a consistent result designed by the speakers architect. If the amp fails ask Jim to repair it, the same as a passive speaker. I don't see a problem.
From the website:
The PowerPlay Monitor:
EXTREME ACCURACY
Active DSP crossovers result in the flattest, most accurate frequency response you're likely to see. The resulting sound is balanced from top to bottom.
"You will hear the music EXACTLY as it was produced"
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But they also represent great value. The JBL 305 (original) was a stunning active 2-way monitor listing for $300/pair, beating any comparably priced passive monitor. But the 305 Mk2, same list price, will out perform any most $1000/pair passive monitors. Again stunningly dynamic, flatter, and more bass.
Small correction.
Once you've taken them apart and brace the cabinets and put non-drying clay on the driver baskets. The bass is a bit too loose/bloated/boomy before doing that.
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If you own a passive sub it still requires an amp that can fail. If you own passive speakers they still require amps, which can fail. I don't think the consumer market are buying passive speakers out of fear that active speakers may fail, I think it is out of ignorance.
Jim Salk just weighed in on his excellent Power Monitors. Bryston also sells both active and passive speakers, guess which ones they think are better?
I agree you can build a fantastic system using passive speakers, it just requires a bigger budget, careful matching of components and a LOT of trial and error. Let's ask 100 Salk speaker owners which amps they chose, what are the odds they all picked the same amp? That means you might get 100 different results, probably all are good but how many will be perfect?
If you get 100 people to buy salk power monitors they will all have "systems" yielding perfectly flat frequency response and a consistent result designed by the speakers architect. If the amp fails ask Jim to repair it, the same as a passive speaker. I don't see a problem.
From the website:
The PowerPlay Monitor:
EXTREME ACCURACY
Active DSP crossovers result in the flattest, most accurate frequency response you're likely to see. The resulting sound is balanced from top to bottom.
"You will hear the music EXACTLY as it was produced"
No shit sherlock that is why I said even separates like amps , pre amps , receivers etc will fail before the speakers do....That is just your opinion of what you "THINK" but the fact remains that majority of people do NOT buy (excluding computer speakers) powered speakers and that majority of speaker manufacturer/dealers sell non powered speakers because that is what sells.
Choosing the right equipment that has the right synergy between them does not always require a bigger budget as that is one of the common misconceptions of audiophiles....like how some audiophiles believes a 10k speaker cable sounds better then a 5k speaker cable. :lol:
If you did a A/B blind test comparison of 100 salk people with half of them using separate amps and the other half using the powered monitors majority of the people wouldn't be able to pick out 50 of the powered monitors and some would even choose and prefer the sound of passive then the actives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxzVofA98B4
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Well, since Jim has built a pair (there is a photo on his site to prove it!) and no one has bought any, perhaps he could send them out on an AC tour! I'll be the first to listen and give a review on them!!! :thumb:
:popcorn:
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I like the speaker tour idea but at 26 lbs each, shipping is about $90 for the pair, I checked weight and size (double boxed) using my FedEx account.
We need a Go Fund Me page.
PowerPlay
(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/PowerPlay%20Monitors/a.jpg)
(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/PowerPlay%20Monitors/fr.jpg)
http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=PowerPlay%20Monitors (http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=PowerPlay%20Monitors)
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If you did a A/B blind test comparison of 100 salk people with half of them using separate amps and the other half using the powered monitors majority of the people wouldn't be able to pick out 50 of the powered monitors and some would even choose and prefer the sound of passive then the actives.
I can't speak for Salk customers but if you are claiming that you can't tell the difference between a passive and active speaker of the same model you are mistaken.
The Paradigm Active 40 I own has an identical passive version. Look at the specs for the passive version:
Studio 40 v2 Specifications
Design
3 driver, 2-1/2-way bookshelf / stand-mounted
Crossover
3rd order electro/acoustic at 1.5kHz, 2nd order electro/acoustic at 400Hz
Frequency Response On-Axis
±2dB from 59 Hz - 22 kHz
Frequency Response 30° Off-Axis
±2dB from 59 Hz - 20 kHz
High Frequency Driver
25mm (1 in) PAL™ pure-aluminum dome, diecast heatsink chassis, ferro-fluid cooled
Mid/Bass Frequency Driver
170mm (6-3/4 in), MLP™ mica-polymer cone, AVS™ diecast heatsink chassis, 38mm voice-coil
Low Frequency Driver
170mm (6-3/4 in), filled polypropylene cone, AVS™ diecast heatsink chassis, 38mm voice-coil
Low Frequency Extension
34Hz (DIN)
Sensitivity Room / Anechoic
91 dB / 88 dB
Impedance
Compatible with 8 ohms
Suitable Amplifier Power Range
15 - 180 watts
Maximum Input Power
140 watts
Weight
70 lbs. (32 kg)
Dimensions HxWxD
21.5" × 8.75" × 12"
(54.6cm × 22.2cm × 30.5cm)
and now compare with the active version:
Active 40 v2 Specifications
Design
2-driver, 2 way with built in electronic crossover and amplifiers
Crossover
3rd order electro/acoustic at 1.5kHz, 2nd order electro/acoustic at 400Hz (lower bass driver)
Amplifier
High current, discrete output, Powersaver auto on/off, thermal protection
Amplifier Features
Bi-amplified: 325w/125w RMS for bass/midrange drivers, 150w/50w RMS for high frequency drivers
Frequency Response On-Axis
±1dB 36Hz-22kHz
Frequency Response 30° Off-Axis
±1dB 36Hz-20kHz
High Frequency Driver
25mm PAL™ pure-aluminum dome, diecast heatsink chassis, ferro-fluid damped/cooled
Mid/Bass Frequency Driver
170mm, MLP™ mica-polymer cone, AVS™ diecast heatsink chassis, 38mm voice-coil
Low Frequency Driver
170mm, mineral-filled polypropylene cone, AVS™ diecast heatsink chassis, 38mm voice-coil
Low Frequency Extension
32Hz (DIN)
Weight
70 lbs. (32 kg)
Dimensions HxWxD
21.5" × 8.25" × 13.25"
(54.6cm × 21.0cm × 33.7cm)
Anyone and everyone can hear the difference between them regardless of the amp you use on the passive version in a blind listening test.
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These speakers with straight line response are not appropriate to the human ear the reason is this:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108628&size=huge)
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[quote
Anyone and everyone can hear the difference between them regardless of the amp you use on the passive version in a blind listening test.
[/quote]
Obviously some active systems will sound better than theiractive counterpart. However, if the passive crossover is implemented correctly, and if the drivers themselves are reasonably well behaved, any difference you hear between the active and passive will probably be confined to the bass, where active circuitry can help offset common room modes. I would bet a sizable proportion of my annual profits that you would not hear a meaningful difference between, say, my BMR (or several Salk models) and an active version outside of the bass.
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In the 90s I found the Carver Amazing that has the most pleasant sound that I have ever lietened independent of price and his freq response is this:
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Amazfig4.jpg)
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[quote
Anyone and everyone can hear the difference between them regardless of the amp you use on the passive version in a blind listening test.
Obviously some active systems will sound better than their active counterpart. However, if the passive crossover is implemented correctly, and if the drivers themselves are reasonably well behaved, any difference you hear between the active and passive will probably be confined to the bass, where active circuitry can help offset common room modes. I would bet a sizable proportion of my annual profits that you would not hear a meaningful difference between, say, my BMR (or several Salk models) and an active version outside of the bass.
I would not want to take the bet but accept your offer in good humor.
The bass is a BIG deal. Think about that, better bass extension AND you don't need to buy an amp or speaker wire. Have you seen the price of good amps lately $$$?
There is another model Paradigm still sells, look at the Atom (passive version) vs the Shift A2 (active Atom). Quick story for you, I had a single A2 mounted on the ceiling and wanted to take it down and use it for my wide channels. That means I need to buy a mate. I get online and see a refurb for only $75 and go WOW and hit the buy button. A few days later speaker shows up in a HUGE box. I open it and the vendor actually sold me a PAIR for the sale price instead of a single. :green:
Talk about happy . Check them out:
https://www.paradigm.com/products-current/model=a2/page=reviews
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In the 90s I found the Carver Amazing that has the most pleasant sound that I have ever lietened independent of price and his freq response is this:
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Amazfig4.jpg)
I LOVE Carver gear and use it in my desktop system. Sunfire Theater Grand 3 preamp and a Carver AV 505 amp.
I have had this gear for years and if it ain't broke don't fix it.
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I would not want to take the bet but accept your offer in good humor.
The bass is a BIG deal. Think about that, better bass extension AND you don't need to buy an amp or speaker wire. Have you seen the price of good amps lately $$$?
There is another model Paradigm still sells, look at the Atom (passive version) vs the Shift A2 (active Atom). Quick story for you, I had a single A2 mounted on the ceiling and wanted to take it down and use it for my wide channels. That means I need to buy a mate. I get online and see a refurb for only $75 and go WOW and hit the buy button. A few days later speaker shows up in a HUGE box. I open it and the vendor actually sold me a PAIR for the sale price instead of a single. :green:
Talk about happy . Check them out:
https://www.paradigm.com/products-current/model=a2/page=reviews
Well, if you saw my annual profits, you'll know it wasn't much of a bet. In fact, the winner would probably lose a great deal of money. I agree the bass management advantages of active speakers are a big plus, but many people would invoke equalization with their room correction software if they were running passives. I expected to be out of the passive crossover "business" long ago. It's interesting how much market resistance there is to active systems.
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I expected to be out of the passive crossover "business" long ago. It's interesting how much market resistance there is to active systems.
Powered speakers make things simple. However, an active crossover makes it not so simple. Kinda defeats the purpose.
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Being low voltage active crossovers can be simple or complex, but passive (or powered) crossovers being high voltage have to remain relatively simple. As the buyer of active speakers it'd be your choice what features to use. My active JBL 708P monitors for instance have 12 user programmable equalization filters, DAC (for digital input), frame/speaker delay (for A/V applications), and bass management for use with subwoofer(s). I find the equalization filters very useful to tame bass anomalies that exist in every residentially sized room.
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Being low voltage active crossovers can be simple or complex, but passive (or powered) crossovers being high voltage have to remain relatively simple. As the buyer of active speakers it'd be your choice what features to use. My active JBL 708P monitors for instance have 12 user programmable equalization filters, DAC (for digital input), frame/speaker delay (for A/V applications), and bass management for use with subwoofer(s). I find the equalization filters very useful to tame bass anomalies that exist in every residentially sized room.
Hmmmmm. I have read where this thread has gone, and frankly as a non-technical person who likes music and is involved in audio as a necessary element of a music appreciation hobby, the high level like this one above might as well be discussing how to build telecommunication transponders to monitor signals from outer space....
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As most of us know,Meadowlark is back in business with some attractive Actives, especially the Kite/Predator combo paired with a DSP system that allows for fine tuning for room adjustments. Meadowlark Audio is located not too far from me so I might have to pack up my Bamberg S3s - which I really like btw - and drive to see Pat for an A/B comparison.
http://www.bambergaudio.com/products/series3/3tmw.php
http://meadowlarksings.com
Below, meadowlark’s Pat McGinty comments ... taken from another forum:
“Master speaker designer Joe D'Appolito lays out the basics of taking useful LF measurements:
https://www.audioxpress.com/article/measuring-loudspeaker-low-frequency-response
Back in the day you'd need to spend a bundle on a MLSSA analyzer or equivalent. Now we can get the job done with a Windows based system for just 300 bucks.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...ed-precision-room-measurement-system--390-792
If you're venturing into DSP - which gives you delightfully fine control in the bass - knowing Joe's ideas can make the process of aligning your system so much more fun.”
I have old Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods that I love but are too big for my future down-sized residence, and I read about the "new" Meadowlark thanks to this reference, but what I read on my first pass throught what Patrick is up to now does not make me very excited when he uses words like "aggressive" to describe the sound he's looking to achieve...My Meadowlarks are so well-broken-in and rich sounding that I think they are lovely with a refined burnished sound. Aggressive is that last word I would be looking for in speakers. When you buy speakers that have built in amplification it seems to me you are stuck with the manufacturer thinks is "good sound". Maybe that's what everyone has been saying here through the course of the discussion in this thread, but I am not sure that having no choice on the way the speakers sound is the ideal. You trade "ease" for a loss of choice in how to balance the system. I know the "trial and error" and "that takes time" arguments, etc...But when I heard some powered speakers at shows I didn't like the sound, and of course some of us (maybe not here in this Forum) like tubes, or think tubes might be a nice way to build the sound field we like.
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Hmmmmm. I have read where this thread has gone, and frankly as a non-technical person who likes music and is involved in audio as a necessary element of a music appreciation hobby, the high level like this one above might as well be discussing how to build telecommunication transponders to monitor signals from outer space....
What I did when I was younger, was just kept reading. I picked up stuff by reading the same things over and over and learning the nomenclature little by little.
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What I did when I was younger, was just kept reading. I picked up stuff by reading the same things over and over and learning the nomenclature little by little.
I appreciate your optimism.... :? :? :?
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The first thing I noticed when working on this design (PowerPlay Monitors) was that the frequency response we were able to obtain was flatter than any speaker we had ever done.
(http://salksound.com/gallery/PowerPlay Monitors/fr.jpg)
We could create filters for every dip and peak in the response curve and generate a far flatter plot than possible with a more standard passive crossover design.
Jim,
That is a remarkable achievement!
How powerful are the internal amps? Can they accommodate balanced inputs? In the picture below taken from your website, one looks different from the other below the woofer, is that a control panel or...?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187333)
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I guess one other thing that I have never thought much about, since only Jim and John Atkinson (of Stereopile) bring this up, is that the flat response stats is somehow important. I have looked at Atkinson's technical graphics in connections with a lot of reviews, but I've never really understood them, nor have I given them much significance. What I want to know is what the speakers sound like to the reviewer, and whether the reviewer's subject appraisals seem to be congruent with my own, such as Art Dudley's reviews, as I seem to have similar tastes, and I trust his judgment. Not to "dis" Jim or JA, but the graph paper blips didn't mean very much to me. I have heard a Brit monitor that supposedly goes nowhere deep into the bass as the Salk Silks, and they sounded musical and really awesome in bass. But the "stats" were not that great, I guess.
So a few more follow up questions: why is the flat response graph important to me a prospective buyer? What does it have to do with actually enjoying listening to a speaker? And specifically as t the Power Play, for instance, how does it "sound" compared to say the Salk Silk monitors?
Baffled with science,
Joe
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Flat frequency response can be a revelation. Proper tone is maintained so everything sounds "right". Bass, midrange, and treble ranges are balanced (no relative exaggerations that so many quick sale marketeers use to impress unsuspecting customers). No bass bloat, shouty/nasal mids, or 'zingy' highs and no missing sounds from frequency dips. The closer to flat you get, the more it "makes sense" of what you're hearing.
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Flat frequency response can be a revelation. Proper tone is maintained...
That is so true. Quite often the FR specification will read +/- 3db. That is pretty much and industry wide acceptable norm. However the thing to keep in mind is +/- 3db is a 6db swing!
With variation of that magnitude through out the bass, midrange and treble it’s no wonder two different speakers with the same stated FR (i.e. 50 Hz -20Khz +/- 3db) can sound so different.
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Although I agree that a relatively flat frequency response is important, I always question the pursuit of perfection from a practical stand. I consider that once you’re within say 2-3dB of flat then other factors will predominate your listening experience including, but not limited to:
1) The microphone frequency response that was used to record the sound.
2) The acoustics of the recorded environment
3) The audio engineer’s preference for eq. (and their age!)
4) The audio engineers’ speakers/headphones influencing choice 3) above
5) The recording and reproduction signal chain (hopefully within +/- 1dB)
6) The room acoustics and layout of your listening environment.
However, I think frequency response can become critical between 400Hz and 6Khz where abrupt ripples in the response say +/-2dB (total delta 4dB) will be audible for specific instruments and vocals that explore adjacent frequencies. I think this is what JLM was alluding to in his comment:
shouty/nasal mids, or 'zingy' highs and no missing sounds from frequency dips. The closer to flat you get, the more it "makes sense" of what you're hearing.
Outside that frequency range the bass is more heavily impacted by your room setup and the high end is impacted by your ears, if you’re anywhere near middle age.
Hmmm, now I’m feeling like I’m getting a bit off-topic in this thread.
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Flat frequency response can be a revelation. Proper tone is maintained so everything sounds "right". Bass, midrange, and treble ranges are balanced (no relative exaggerations that so many quick sale marketeers use to impress unsuspecting customers). No bass bloat, shouty/nasal mids, or 'zingy' highs and no missing sounds from frequency dips. The closer to flat you get, the more it "makes sense" of what you're hearing.
Thanks for this....I think.
Joe
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I know this is an ancient thread but I thought I would put my 2 cents in. I have a pair of Fluid FX80 powered monitors at my desk that I love but one of them loses most woofer response quite frequently and so they are basically broken. Because the problem was intermittent when I took it in for service and it passed inspection and I had basically paid a thirty dollar bench fee to be told all was well. It didn’t truly die until after the warranty is up.
Granted these are $250 speakers so they aren’t the most reliable things around but they sound fantastic and are one of the few non Genelecs that are coaxial so they have very nice imaging. But basically a speaker that would otherwise last my natural life is a piece of garbage now because the amp died.
Yes I could go but another replacement and maybe within the first three or for monitors I get a good working pair. But I’d rather just own a pair of Salk silks and pass them down to my son when I die and have that much more enjoyment and a nicer finish to boot.
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old thread i know, but just wondering if any new active speakers are being launched this year? https://audiomediainternational.com/namm-2024-alcons-presents-the-m-series-pro-ribbon-reference-monitor-series/
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I think the "lifestyle" group has accepted active speakers without necessary caring, in the form of "Siri", "Alexis" and "Google plus".