AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: jsalk on 15 Jun 2011, 09:43 pm
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Ron wanted a pair of SongTower-like speakers but really wanted to "roll his own," so to speak. He chose some nice Seas woofers and a Fountek ribbon tweeter. He then developed a transmission line cabinet for the woofers and we built a test cabinet. Once that was complete, Dennis worked his magic to bring all the elements together.
The cabinets are essentially the same as the SongTower cabinets but 2 1/2" deeper.
Ron selected some veneer and had it sent to us. We took it from there. Here are the results...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=47908)
I have no idea why photos always look better on my computer than here on audiocircle. The photos certainly do not do justice to this pair. At any rate, here's a close-up...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=47909)
Happy listening Ron!
- Jim
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Wow, Jim, you really redefine "Custom built."
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Elegant.
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Jim how do they sound with the Fountek tweeter????. I'm looking at a similar build....very nice, very, very nice.....
...and what was the thoughts behind setting the tweeter slightly to one side and not centered in the baffle between the woofers.
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Jim how do they sound with the Fountek tweeter????. I'm looking at a similar build....very nice, very, very nice.....
...and what was the thoughts behind setting the tweeter slightly to one side and not centered in the baffle between the woofers.
The Fountek tweeter sounds much like the AC G2 and LCY 110. It is a very nice tweeter.
As for the tweeter position, it is for diffraction control. Centering the tweeter would certainly be easier since the same template can be used for both speakers. But it is not ideal.
Keeping the analysis simple, if you center the tweeter, the distance to each side of the cabinet is the same and sound at a specific wavelength will hit both sides at the same time, creating diffraction artifacts in the process (think of turbulence at the edge of a wing). You still get diffraction artifacts if you move the tweeter off center, but those artifacts occur at two different frequencies rather than one and the effect is cut in half. So you get two smaller sets of artifacts rather than a single larger one. The result is response that is a little smoother.
- Jim
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I LOVE crotch mahogany. I love saying it too. I'm going to name my next cat Crotch Mahogany. :D
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As always Jim, very nice work. I think going with the Fountek tweeter is a good choice as they are very good units.
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Thanks Jim!!!! I totally understood that....I'm starting to get this whole thing...LOL...I'm going to get the Fountek 2 way kit from Madisound and it uses that tweeter so I'm very happy you think they sound good...phew!!!
They are one of your finest looking speakers I've seen you do over the time I've been hanging out here....beautiful!!!!! :thumb: :thumb:
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I LOVE crotch mahogany. I love saying it too. I'm going to name my next cat Crotch Mahogany. :D
LOL - that's the funniest thing I've heard all day! Thanks for that.
Ron - those look great man; love that veneer. Welcome to the Salk family!
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Thanks everyone for the kind words on my new speakers. They would not have been possible if not for the wonderful support and suggestions from both Jim and Dennis. Jim did an excellent job on the veneer finish. I told him what I was looking for, and he asked if I would trust him and his crew. If he ever makes that offer to any of you, just do it and put your trust in them. They seem to have an uncanny ability to translate what it is you want into a work of art that won't disappoint!!
Dennis recommended the Fountek tweeter and I'm quite happy with it as I am with his crossover design. Dennis also redesigned the crossover networks for my B&W 601S3 speakers. His talent cannot be faulted as far as I'm concerned. I appreciate Dennis' hospitality in inviting me over to his place for the design phase and sound test. I've only listened to the prototype in the test cabinet in my system, so I'm quite excited to hear how the pair sound. I hope to one day make it out to Jim's operation in Michigan for a visit. If any of you get the opportunity to go to the Capital Audiofest, you should make every effort. There you'll meet Jim, Dennis, hear some AVA electronics driving Jim and Dennis' speakers, as well as meet a few of us ACers.
Hope to see some of you there.
Thanks,
Ron
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Wow...that's one amazing veneer! One of my favorites!
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Keeping the analysis simple, if you center the tweeter, the distance to each side of the cabinet is the same and sound at a specific wavelength will hit both sides at the same time, creating diffraction artifacts in the process (think of turbulence at the edge of a wing). You still get diffraction artifacts if you move the tweeter off center, but those artifacts occur at two different frequencies rather than one and the effect is cut in half. So you get two smaller sets of artifacts rather than a single larger one. The result is response that is a little smoother.
Would you be able to modify the inside of the cabinet, perhaps adding thickness to one side near the tweeter, to achieve the same effect and keep the tweeter centered?
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Beautiful.......again! :thumb:
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Those are some great looking speakers. Congratulations!
Just curious, how does this version of the SongTower compare to the standard in terms of frequency response with the different drivers and deeper cabinet?
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Would you be able to modify the inside of the cabinet, perhaps adding thickness to one side near the tweeter, to achieve the same effect and keep the tweeter centered?
If I am understanding the question correctly, the answer is no. Diffraction artifacts result any time sound hits the edge of the cabinet. Sound always tries to travel in every direction. Very short wavelengths (very high frequencies) can't because the sound hits the front of the baffle and is reflected toward the listening position. That is why there is minimal high treble behind the speaker. Longer wavelengths pass right by the cabinet edges and can travel around to the rear of the speaker. But sound at a certain wavelength that is equal to the distance from the tweeter to the cabinet edge, will hit that edge and turbulence results. This is a diffraction artifact and you can usually see it in frequency response measurements. By moving the tweeter off center, you essentially create two different center to edge distances. So there will now be diffraction artifacts at two different frequencies. But sine they no longer reinforce one another, the amplitude of each is 1/2 of what they would have been if they were both at the same frequency.
So adding material to one side of the inside of the cabinet will have no impact since the distance from the center of the tweeter to the cabinet edge will not change.
I hope that made sense.
All that said, there is some debate as to how audible all of this is. There are those who feel it makes little practical difference. But in most cases, we tend to offset tweeters. While it may not make a huge difference, it certainly can't hurt and it does help to some degree.
- Jim
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Just incredilble! :thumb: That is my favorite veneer from this point forward, beautiful work.
Best,
Ed
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They look fantastic!! Enjoy
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Ron
How would you say those drivers compare to the HT2s or standard ST, I know you have listened to Jim's speakers for a while and would like your opinion.
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Congrats Ron, obviously a lot of thought and work went into their creation on your part as well. The veneer, simply exquisite.
Jim, Dennis, above and beyond as always. :thumb:
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I LOVE crotch mahogany. I love saying it too. I'm going to name my next cat Crotch Mahogany. :D
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Keeping on topic, beautiful speakers Ron. Looking forward to your impressions.
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Ron
How would you say those drivers compare to the HT2s or standard ST, I know you have listened to Jim's speakers for a while and would like your opinion.
Actually, the only experience I've had listening to Jim's speakers were at Dennis' house with the prototypes where I met you. I believe you helped me lug one of my B&W 801FS down to Dennis' measurement room. The other time was at last years Capital Audiofest where I got to hear the SoundScapes and LCY ribbon version of the SongTowers. I really like MLQWTL speakers and feel that one can actually resolve the lower frequencies as opposed to the low end boom of bass reflex units. Once bitten, I purchased Martin King's Mathcad worksheets and learned to design MLQWTL speakers. I choose the Seas U16RCY/P unit because it had the same physical size of the CA15RLY and ER15RLY units used in the SongTowers, but with a 33% greater Sd, or surface area to move air. I figured I could design an enclosure hat would go lower than the ST's for roughly the same cost. The U16RCy/P is about $10.00 more than the ER15RLY. So I have only listened to the prototype of this speaker, and just a single unit at that. Once I get them in house, I'll give them a better listen and compare to the B&W 601S3 and 801FS units.
Now if I can just find someone local to take those 801s off of my hands!! :lol:
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Actually, the only experience I've had listening to Jim's speakers were at Dennis' house with the prototypes where I met you. I believe you helped me lug one of my B&W 801FS down to Dennis' measurement room. The other time was at last years Capital Audiofest where I got to hear the SoundScapes and LCY ribbon version of the SongTowers. I really like MLQWTL speakers and feel that one can actually resolve the lower frequencies as opposed to the low end boom of bass reflex units. Once bitten, I purchased Martin King's Mathcad worksheets and learned to design MLQWTL speakers. I choose the Seas U16RCY/P unit because it had the same physical size of the CA15RLY and ER15RLY units used in the SongTowers, but with a 33% greater Sd, or surface area to move air. I figured I could design an enclosure hat would go lower than the ST's for roughly the same cost. The U16RCy/P is about $10.00 more than the ER15RLY. So I have only listened to the prototype of this speaker, and just a single unit at that. Once I get them in house, I'll give them a better listen and compare to the B&W 601S3 and 801FS units.
Now if I can just find someone local to take those 801s off of my hands!! :lol:
You brought an 801 to my place? The Big Hog? I don't remember that. Really? The big classic
Matrix 3-way? I remember two book shelf models, but not the Big Hog. Anyhow, I thought the souped up SongTower sounded great. The bass definitely goes a few Hz deeper, and I didn't hear any tradeoff elsewhere in the frequency response. But I didn't hear it in stereo either.
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Yeah, remember we lugged it downstairs and you did a measurement for me. I had changed out all of the old caps that were way off in value and replaced them with tight tolerance film units. You said it looked good and that I did a good job. At the end of your get together, I fired up the pair with the two AVA U70 amps. This was in July 2009 at your hosted DC Speakerfest.
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Yeah, remember we lugged it downstairs and you did a measurement for me. I had changed out all of the old caps that were way off in value and replaced them with tight tolerance film units. You said it looked good and that I did a good job. At the end of your get together, I fired up the pair with the two AVA U70 amps. This was in July 2009 at your hosted DC Speakerfest.
Hmmm. I remember the event. And buying way too much barbeque. I don't have any recollection of what they sounded like. How did they measure?
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At first there was a HF roll-off that you questioned. I then went over and adjusted the HF Environmental Control (B&W speak) from flat to whatever the high setting was, and when you measured again, it came spot on. Now I know which setting to use for the HF control.
Ron
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Here's the event.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68550.0
Ron
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Here's the event.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68550.0
Ron
Man--that rug was a lot cleaner before Big Ben hit town. Didn't see any pics of the alleged 801's. But I do remember the high frequency switch thing.
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Now if I can just find someone local to take those 801s off of my hands!! :lol:
I hope whoever gets them has eaten their Wheaties that day, those suckers are heavy. The B&Ws didn't sound bad though hope you like the salks better, they will be much better to look at for sure.
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Ron
I'm just reading about your speakers this morning. That veneer looks really good. Enjoy them!
Are you planning on coming to the Capital Audiofest? I'll be there.
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Yep, I'll be there. Looking forward to seeing you, Dennis, and Jim again!! :thumb:
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OK, there here and they sound :thumb:!! I know you've all heard this before, but it's worth restating; photos just doesn't do these speakers justice. If you ever get the chance to see a Salk built product, do yourself a favor and check them out. B&W, Joseph Audio, etc. have nothing over Salk workmanship.
Here are the obligatory FedEx photos:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48124)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48125)
Once I get my room straightened up, I'll post more photos of these in action. Oh hell, here's a couple anyway:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48127)
With grilles attached.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48128)
WIth grilles stowed on back of speakers.
This isn't my optimal room, it's just temporary until my stepson gets his stuff out of the basement so I can build my dedicated media room. In the mean time, this will have to do.
Thanks to Jim, Dennis, and Martin King for all of there help on this project.
Ron
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This isn't my optimal room, it's just temporary until my stepson gets his stuff out of the basement so I can build my dedicated media room. In the mean time, this will have to do.
How about buying a tarp or two and putting the stuff in the backyard in the meantime? :lol:
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Charmerci,
Don't think it hasn't crossed my mind!!! :D I am in the middle of building a patio with walkway around to the front driveway. Wife says when that's done, we start on the basement!! The boy and his girlfriend have pretty much moved up to his grandparent's farmhouse, so it's just a matter of getting his stuff up there. Plenty of space in barns, hog house, sheds, etc. to store his stuff. Maybe rent a storage unit in his name and move it up there and turn over the key to him. Once he's paying for storage, that may motivate him to move it.
Ron
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Congrats Ron!
Hehehe.....that equipment "stand" looks like something from Dennis's house. :green:
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Hehehe.....that equipment "stand" looks like something from Dennis's house. :green:
That "equipment stand" is a mass-loaded transmission-line amplifier stand.
Experts agree that it adds that extra je ne sais quoi to those AVA amps :lol:!
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I know it has been discussed somewhere, but was there anything to having the tweeters on the outside vs the inside of the speakers?
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That "equipment stand" is a mass-loaded transmission-line amplifier stand.
Experts agree that it adds that extra je ne sais quoi to those AVA amps :lol:!
Indeed!!! I'm gonna take down the Insight+ 500 and add the second U70 and bridge them to see how they sound. Should be fun!!! :thumb:
Ron
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I know it has been discussed somewhere, but was there anything to having the tweeters on the outside vs the inside of the speakers?
Here's a link to one of my posts on the subject and a response from Dennis;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20591210#post20591210
Scroll down to post #5846 and #5847
Also found this on AudioCircle;
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90070.msg888851#msg888851
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48127)
I notice no Salk badges on the fronts. Something to consider. I like the grills better on. I really like the HT2 woofers though, that copper color.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=47908)
I have no idea why photos always look better on my computer than here on audiocircle. The photos certainly do not do justice to this pair.
If Jim's pictures don't do any justice, they you have just committed a crime, my former friend. Put that toy away and have the FedEx guy deliver a camera.
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I'm not a professional photographer by any means. :D Thant being said, I'd rather spend $$$ on music and equipment!! BTW, Jim provided the nameplates, I just haven't affixed them to the speakers yet.
Ron
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That veneer looks very 3D and holographic, very nice.