[1000a]

Bob if this belongs in DIY sorry it seems the place to post it.  For reference I have had no prior experience with other formal room treatments, so I cannot compare them to this.  It does seem from what I have read these should be used without other treatments to rec. their full benefit. 

A few people are looking to build a room lens after “The Argent” so since I have finished mine (construction wise mostly that is) I am elected.  I will keep this short (gee I see how short it is now) until and if questions occur.  The designer of the Argent Room Lens is Ric Cummins, so he gets the credit for an incredible idea and product it seems is no longer available or I find no website for.

Is it worth the effort?  Well IMS (tube amp) and IMR (concrete floor covered w wood laminate) where I have no formal room treatments just area rug and the like furnishings > Beyond the shadow of a doubt (not subtle at all), improvement IMS is substantial, as impressive as:

#1 Going from cat5 design to homebrew designed magwire SC, ICs & PCs.
Opened soundstage up big time, lots of air & space, tons more detail, incredible bass.

#2-Going from no tube dampers to tube dampers, Halos.
Similar to #1 in improvement just not as much, but for perspective
the tube dampers caused my jaw to literally hang open. 

With #1 magwire - I did 1 change at a time - the cumulative improvement is just OFF THE SCALE.  If you have not experimented with this stuff you are loosing out, people did not sell 1,200. cable after using the Anti-Cable because they were nuts and if you DIY you can beat those designs easily, at least the SCs.
 
These are the 2 most incredible changes IMS regardless of money spent no amps DACs or speakers period!  So where does the Room lens fall, it equals the tube dampers easily, cost about 50. to 75. to build.

With the only exception in improvement being moving from mid-fi (NAD) to starter High end (Jolida) and that is vs 1 change not all 3 together.  All 3 together is like T-ball to MLB. 

My primary references for these were Jon Risch’s hypothetical design thoughts based on his audio knowledge (see his site) and Nick’s design (of TVC fame) link found on the Promitheus Audio site.  Do a Google on “room lens” and “Argent Room lens” and do the homework.  They many give even more insight into the orginal design and benefits such as:   http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/roomlens/roomlens.html  It is not necessary but gave me a lot of insight by starting to study room nodes. 

From my limited laymen like understanding, the outside of tubes themselves act like diffusers-deflectors and help to delay early & other reflection points and the inside of the tubes become frequency resonators each of the 3 tubes affecting different ones (because of different filter placements) concerning bass.   

I placed my tubes 1-1.25” apart and did a double ¾” base (used liquid nails) for stability which sits at ¾” of the floor (I may try increasing this later).  Also for now my feet have felt on them so I can slide easily the RL to test different placements.    One thing I did do different is I have started 2 additional holes so I can easily add 2 more tubes if I so desire and I do so desire.  Will it be better, no clue.  That’s why there is no top cap on mine currently.

My mistakes?  With a 2.5” hole saw, the 2” ID pipe (approx. 2.5” OD) fits loosely in the hole.  So if I had to do it over I’d buy 2 saws one 2.25” (7-$8.) also and try it on a test board and see if the pipe fits in that better, if not I’m out $7. but it might work out better.  I did not see a saw between 2.5 and 2.25” in the store, that would probably have been spot on.  With the larger holes and the liquid nails I lifted the bases off the floor and had problems with the still uncured glue 20 hrs. later letting the tubes slip down.  So skip this agony and use small short screws (on top of base) in addition to the glue as adjustable shims to make the tubes fit tightly.  Finally go thru the board with the hole saw till the pilot bit comes thru the other side, stop and finish the cut from the other side, if not getting the board stuck in the saw out is a PITA, also this allows a cleaner hole edge on both sides.

Just found this old circle info, should save you guys the sliding problems I had:

Using two pieces of MDF board glued together with RTV.
The top board has 2 1/2" holes cut in to accept the tubes, the bottom has  2 1/4" holes in it to allow air thru the tubes but is small enough so it will prevent the tubes from going thru.while providing the base onto which the ends of the tubes will rest. I will then put metal cones into the bottom piece.
                                                                                Paul G 
   

That’s it, now I must learn how to get photos on here.

[1000a]

Before I forget while its on my mind, you guys in this forum would be the ones to ask.  Of the 3 tubes in this Room Lens which tube effects the lowest frequencies of the 3 tubes or at least in theory.  The bass has definitely gotten tighter and more focused with these, it is especially apparent to me in familiar classical pieces that have loud climatic parts with the big kettle drums, such as Holst and Copeland.  Now it seems to stay more in the soundstage as opposed to it used to move across the room towards me.  If this makes sense.  It certainly seems as everyone else I have bass issues in my room.

1-Left tube has filter closer to the bottom of tube- deeper freq.?
2-Middle tube has filter about middle of tube
3-Right tube has filter closer to the top of tube-or does this one effect a deeper freq.?

Lastly in light of corner loading in a room, theoretically which tube should be closest to the corners in your opinion?

Thanks in advance,

[PLMONROE]

Hummmm! I fear I shouldn't be posting this. I don't want to start an argument or put myself in the position of disagreeing with either Paul Candy or 6 Moons but I did not have his experience with them. Short version is: I own two sets purchased new. Their MSRP equates to about 2 % of the cost of my sound system so I don't exactly have junk in my dedicated sound room. My observation is that collectively they did not have the effect of even one of either Ethan's or Bryan's bass traps (I own some of each). In fact I could not tell they had much of an effect at all. They are now in storage. Perhaps most significant is the fact that they are no longer produced or sold. This in turn should indicate that the world isn't exactly clamoring for them.  However you or others may find they work wonders for you. Good luck with your efforts for improved sound. 

[1000a]

Bob (moderator)

   If this is the wrong place for my post please move it elsewhere.  Or tell me where it might help others so I can do it.

Thanks in advance,

[JoshK]

Are these suppose to be some sort of Hemholtz resonators?   For some reason I always thought they were meant for dispersion.

[1000a]

It seems they do a little of both

[Rob Babcock]

I never knew just what the hell they were supposed to do!   Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking what I haven't heard- they may work great.  I just don't know on the basis of what acoustic principle they could possibly make any difference.  But I'd maybe the try the DIY version.

[PLMONROE]

Hopefully someone here can remember more information from Argents now defunct website. As I recall it was recommended that the room lens be used without any other acoustic treatments (not sure why). As to how they were supposed to work my understanding is that the tubes resonate at a specific frequency determined by their physical characteristics (length, diameter, etc). In resonating they absorb sound energy (turning it into heat?)  and thus are supposed to have the capability to tame room nodes. Perhaps this  explains why there are three differing tubes. If so these would seem to be  narrow band devices. My physics is a bit rusty and someone here surely is far more knowledgeable on this than I. 

[1000a]

Bob,

Either did I, had looked at the pictures years back and had no clue how they would improve anything.  For now they are working great for me, I spent 65-70. (could have been 45.), very worth while improvement IMS, IMR.  I think the most informative thing I read on them I found on Jon Ricsh's website:
 http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a3.htm

Once I read this, how and what they did became clear to me.  A very substantial improvement for little $$ and I can paint them, stain the bases and so forth if I need them to look better, kind of like sculpture.

Too all others,

Are they better than bass traps, I never claimed they were.  They also deflect and diffuse 1st reflections so they are doing a couple of things and cheap.  I have read they should be used without other treatments and good coments on doing so, I have also read 1 person who uses them w other treatments, such is life.  I would certainly try them naked first and then with other treatments second.  I am intrested to see what I think when I take them out after a couple of weeks, just to double confirm my findings w them.

Follows- My exact listening notes w CDs (on room lens) from a week back, these are quick jotted notes while listening, not scientific measurements.  Please allow for less than perfect descriptions, possible contradictions: (Holst-Telarc, Robinson-Analoge Productions, Hendrix and Krall standard labels)

Night low volume: (did not get far was too tired)
Band of Gypsies-  #2 machine gun- Hendrix’s early comments very very clear now
Krall- 1st lp- seemed more open, larger space

Next day my standard test volume:
Krall- 1st lp- seemed more open, larger space, rhythm & pace excellent, bass more defined-very defined, very clear stable
Holst-planets- #1 mars-  mid song climax moves towards- me-but stays contained now really focused
I suppose before-there were bass-nodes-running amok in my room
Holst-plants- Jupiter- first drum strike right before pretty part begins is very dynamic very fast attack w excellent force
Incredible, It seems I can see parts of the orch. More clearly,. More clarity- more richness in orch.
It seems louder at same volume
Krall-1st lp- body & soul-lost glare on loud parts of vocal
Definitely seems louder at same vol., more minute detail coming out- clearly hear her shift around on bench in the beginning- heard the noise before but could not identify it
Jimmie Lee Robinson- All My Life #1 (3 players –blues acoustic) way more space between players way more –saw this before but not like this not even close More detail- harp player getting air- singer bigger more real

These are the changes I heard IMR w MS recorded quickly with a pen (compared to having no formal audio room treatments at all), was it worth my 65. definitely.  Better than other treatments, never claimed it was and I will probably eventually try others, for now it’s a massive improvement for me .  Try em if you like.  Suggestions, ideas, insight into how they work, science of room acoustics, more tubes - less tubes, bigger tubes, what bass ranges affected and so forth all welcome.  The tubes are 60" long with 16" long filter material (fish tank filter)- in each tube,  Lt. tube - 18" from bottom/ Mid. tube - 23" from bottom/ Rt. tube - 14" from top.  Still don't know which tube affects the lower frequencies of the 3, thinking of adding another tube, any clues?  Thanks in advance. 

[PromitheusAudio]

Guys

This are the bomb if you are using a OB, Electrostatic and Ribbon

Super.

WIthout it my system sounds flat, 2D like.

I would recommend building one for the fun of it, plus moving it around helps to tune the sound.

With box speakers would not have that much improvement like the above class of speakers. Works wonders with backwave speaker or dipole

I used them with Bass traps, and room diffusers.


Mine are place directly behind my OB. Works for me best there

[Ethan Winer]

I just don't know on the basis of what acoustic principle they could possibly make any difference.

That's my take too. With acoustics and treatment, size is key. Small (or in this case exceedingly narrow) things simply can't do much acoustically because they're too small in relation to the wavelengths involved. Maybe if you put them right in front of the speakers so they partially block sound on the way from the tweeters to your ears, that might have an audible effect. But then I'm not sure it would be a good effect. My guess is they probably add a little comb filtering in the form of peaks and nulls in the high midrange.

--Ethan

[PLMONROE]

They didn't do much for my ribbons but if they work for you, go for em! 

[jhm731]

If the Room Lens don't do anything, how about the Shatki Hallograph Soundfield Optimizers or these little buggers:

https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/content.php?id=115




 
 

[PLMONROE]

Cool! If I ordered a dozen of the Platinum ones do you think they would discount the order to an even $20,000?  And they wouldn't take up as much space as 20k of bass traps either

[chadh]

If the Room Lens don't do anything, how about the Shatki Hallograph Soundfield Optimizers or these little buggers:

https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/content.php?id=115

If ever you needed proof of the existence of God, here it is.  It can't be simple coincidence that the rarer, more expensive platinum also ends up being the finest sounding metal in this application.  Obviously, God wanted to ration the sublime sonic goodness of platinum only to those who truly care about the benefits, and so he made platinum extremely hard to come by. 

I think Jack Bybee also discovered the same property of platinum when designing his quantum purifiers.

All of this makes me wonder how good audio tweaks would sound if they were fashioned from weapons-grade plutonium.

Chad

[nathanm]

https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/content.php?id=115

[gooberdude]

It does make sense that a set of the Room Lenses might help out OB speakers more than boxed speakers.

I loaned out my acoustic treatments a week ago & haven't looked back once i got past the initial 48 hrs.  The Hawthorne SI's are quite good in an un-tamed room much to my surprise.


my only experience with the Lenses is in a room with other treatments installed, but the changes the set of 4 made were audible but bordered on being subtle rather than powerful.   For OB and panel speakers that don't pressurize a room the same way, maybe the Room Lenses are the way to go...

I might end up making a pair 'just cuz...or trying to buy my buddies set.    i do object to 5' poles in my L/R though.   

[1000a]

5 foot poles in the living room, I agree with wanting to try to keep the listening area artisticly pleasant- but between the boards, big wires, smal wire, bags of this and that, audio racks I tell myself I like the look of when in fact I do not, endless crap everywhere.  Its really a PITA particularly if you don't have alot of space which I don't.

and then evertytime I turn around I am plugging and unplugging the stuff, gone are the days of old, lamp cord, a kenwood, nad and a couple of Advents hook up time 30 minutes.  Hook up time for the restless improvers, 1.5-4  hours on a good day with very bright light, rulers, t-squares, db meters, volt meters- oh yea don't forget the pods, cones, spikes, wire towers.

are we wacked or are we inspired don't ask the normies

[robertwb]

I made a set a few years ago and the effect was audible but not dramatic, at least not with my speakers which were adire 10.1/kosolas at the time( I used them near the speakers to intecept first reflections )
haven't tried them with any different speakers since then and I recently moved so maybe I'll get them out and do some more experimenting.

one advantage to diy is you can make them to suit you so I made my bases similar to my speaker stand bases and painted the tubes room wall color to lessen the impact of 5' tall "things" in the then living room, the SO used to always want them either back against the wall or in a different room still...

to make the hole fit right you have to use an adjustable circle cutter and a drill press because the size isn't exactly the same as any holesaws

Robert

[richidoo]

are we wacked or are we inspired don't ask the normies

Same thing, nobody thinks they're crazy 

Wrap the tube end with thick tape to build up the diameter to fit oversized hole.