AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: Daedalus Audio on 20 Aug 2018, 05:55 pm
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We are consumed with building this set of ZEUS for a client and I thought I would post some pics of the build process. More to come from before this point and of course after....
btw the owner ordered very special wood, figured baked maple for the upper cabinets with Claro walnut for the baffles and base cabinets. :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183557)
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Stunning. Are these John's?
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Lou,
Two separate woods , different density I presume , how would it effect the SQ specially with Claro walnut baffles and exterior maple wood ?
Asghar
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Stunning. Are these John's?
Yes! John has been incredibly patient, a true gentleman. He understands that these are more than just speakers and I am trying to give him the works of art he wants.
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Lou,
Two separate woods , different density I presume , how would it effect the SQ specially with Claro walnut baffles and exterior maple wood ?
Asghar
The density of all our woods are very close, plus we brace these so heavily that there is no SQ difference.
thanks,
lou
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Patience...'incredibly patient'.... Lou you crack me up. It certainly has been a journey and a wonderful one at that. It is you who has been more than patient with me. Sheepishly admitting to this forum I am likely the most high maintenance customer. These speakers hit the mark. They are duckin' amazing on all fronts! :D
For those who do not know, I had ordered Poseidon that underwent some delays and when they were finally completed at a time where both of our schedules to allow delivery, the re-design 10" driver came to be. Lou knew the room and I asked what will offer the best sound for my family to enjoy. Lou was willing to sell my current speakers which I never took ownership to another interested person and work on something special, inclusive of woods. They needed to be something specials as the home itself is a timber frame with tons of native NW wood.
Rushing a project like this is a fool's errand. I am tempted to have my partner coat the bottom of the boxes with my ashes and hand them down to my children, which I am sure will be a first for a Daedalus speaker. In all seriousness, our retirement house will be designed around these speakers.
Lou, even unfinished, these speakers have a unique design and are something special to enjoy for years to come.
It is I who is forever grateful for your patience and willingness to take on this endeavor.
There will be some interesting and rare equipment driving these speakers. PM for those who are curious. And of course anyone visiting the Portland area are welcome to listen once the system settles.
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Patience...'incredibly patient'.... Lou you crack me up. It certainly has been a journey and a wonderful one at that. It is you who has been more than patient with me. Sheepishly admitting to this forum I am likely the most high maintenance customer. These speakers hit the mark. They are duckin' amazing on all fronts! :D
For those who do not know, I had ordered Poseidon that underwent some delays and when they were finally completed at a time where both of our schedules to allow delivery, the re-design 10" driver came to be. Lou knew the room and I asked what will offer the best sound for my family to enjoy. Lou was willing to sell my current speakers which I never took ownership to another interested person and work on something special, inclusive of woods. They needed to be something specials as the home itself is a timber frame with tons of native NW wood.
Rushing a project like this is a fool's errand. I am tempted to have my partner coat the bottom of the boxes with my ashes and hand them down to my children, which I am sure will be a first for a Daedalus speaker. In all seriousness, our retirement house will be designed around these speakers.
Lou, even unfinished, these speakers have a unique design and are something special to enjoy for years to come.
It is I who is forever grateful for your patience and willingness to take on this endeavor.
There will be some interesting and rare equipment driving these speakers. PM for those who are curious. And of course anyone visiting the Portland area are welcome to listen once the system settles.
If I am not mistaken I think I am the person who picked up the Poseidon you had ordered , if my memory serves me correctly I think Lou casually mentioned to me when I visited him in Feb. of this year that the Poseidon were ordered by someone who now wants to upgrade to the ZEUS , I am absolutely delighted with them I did not get a chance to listen to the Zeus but did audition both the Apollo along with the Poseidon, to me immediate availability mattered , I was also lucky enough to get custom built QuicKsilver Audio Mono 60 watt amps by Mark Sanders , which just sounds amazing he had a variant of those amps at the California Audio Show this year and now I believe are on his website but mine are configured differently , I certainly would love to the know amplification and what systems would be driving these ZEUS speakers. :thumb: :thumb:
Asghar
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Yes! John has been incredibly patient, a true gentleman. He understands that these are more than just speakers and I am trying to give him the works of art he wants.
John's one of the good guys. I did not know anything about Dedalus until I met John. His praise pointed me in your direction. Much respect and appreciation for what you do and are able to accomplish with real wood speakers. Nice work. Patiently, waiting for more to come.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183659)
We finally have the first coat of oil on them..... oh my!
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183660)
This shows the base cabinets which expand the cabinet volume. The groove around the hole is for the O-ring which gives us an air tight seal.
more pics soon......
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Beautiful build and detail Lou!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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They look awesome Lou! Would love to hear more about how the two cabinets work together to generate bass frequencies. Does the lower box have an active driver, passive radiator, transmission folds? What are your design objectives with the second box?
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They look awesome Lou! Would love to hear more about how the two cabinets work together to generate bass frequencies. Does the lower box have an active driver, passive radiator, transmission folds? What are your design objectives with the second box?
I'll be writing more about this with pictures in the coming week as I flesh out our web pages on the Apollo series. In short the added volume allows for a more flat and natural bass response, especially needed with the fast, short throw woofers we make.
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I think these were in one of the rooms at last years RMAF. If so, then this was my favorite speaker at that show. Too spendy for me, but now I think someday I might buy one of the smaller speakers.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185429)
crossovers loaded yesterday!!!! pics of the final product tomorrow. Beautiful combination of woods, figured baked maple and Claro Walnut!
btw anyone know why pics won't load properly on AC??????
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185434)
Lou,
There's a gravitational anomaly in your workshop. I noticed it both times I visited. The only way to fix it is to give me the Zeus speakers in exchange for my Apollos. It's the least I can do to help you out. :thumb:
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185429)
crossovers loaded yesterday!!!! pics of the final product tomorrow. Beautiful combination of woods, figured baked maple and Claro Walnut!
btw anyone know why pics won't load properly on AC??????
It happens all the time Lou, you just need "to rotate them" before uploading don't know about the Zeus I'd love to have them with all those fancy crossovers ! unfortunately they maybe too big for my environment !But who knows I may trade in my Poseidon for for the Apollo 11 instead of getting in the new tweeters, don't forget to load in the Demo on utube at the CAF perhaps I may fly in next Feb. to check them out at your place for a DEMO ! :popcorn:
:thumb:
Asghar
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wow... it looks like you'll need 1000 watts just to power through the crossover region
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wow... it looks like you'll need 1000 watts just to power through the crossover region
Actually that was done so 10 watts would work, and probably about 30 to 40 tube watts would suffice in most setups.
Alan
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Actually that was done so 10 watts would work, and probably about 30 to 40 tube watts would suffice in most setups.
Alan
spot on Alan. Using a large number of high end caps to make up the values that would usually be filled with one electrolytic cap is one part to making the crossover disappear. These are incredibly easy to drive, just a few watts and you are there!
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wow... it looks like you'll need 1000 watts just to power through the crossover region
The issue isn't how few watts it takes to drive a particular set of speakers, but how much power is needed to make them sound their best. I have 98dB speakers, and they sound better (i.e., more dynamic, detailed and impactful) with lots of watts. The amp has to push power effortlessly through the speakers cables and the crossover, plus have tons of power on hand to eliminate clipping. Theoretically, the more complex the crossover, the more power that's needed. I believe that's what oem-wheels was trying to say.
Those speakers look incredible, BTW. The crossover looks like it belongs in a high end amp. If I could afford them, I'd own a pair.
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The issue isn't how few watts it takes to drive a particular set of speakers, but how much power is needed to make them sound their best. I have 98dB speakers, and they sound better (i.e., more dynamic, detailed and impactful) with lots of watts. The amp has to push power effortlessly through the speakers cables and the crossover, plus have tons of power on hand to eliminate clipping. Theoretically, the more complex the crossover, the more power that's needed. I believe that's what oem-wheels was trying to say.
Those speakers look incredible, BTW. The crossover looks like it belongs in a high end amp. If I could afford them, I'd own a pair.
Very true, just high sensitivity does not mean they will really work well with few watts of power. A well designed and executed crossover though does. Attention to stable impedance, DCR, low loss capacitors and resistors etc. are ALL parts of a quality crossover. When done right a multi driver system can achieve the kind of transparency of a single driver non-crossover system, (without the compromises).
btw, I find the analogy of a garden hose hooked up to a fire hydrant compared to a fire hose to be an apt analogy for a crossover with few (electrolytic) capacitors per each leg of the circuit to one with many high quality caps per value. The larger one has fewer restrictions.
Bottom line is that our systems do NOT take large amounts of current or watts to achieve their best sound, they are consistent at all volumes and with low or high power amps.
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I don't have the Zeus, but Lou's Argos V2s are easily driven with either of my 22wpc tube integrated amps - Line Magnetic 518 IA or Finale Audio 7189 (II) without going past 10 on the "dial" in a 28x20x10 room , musciality, dynamics, etc etc. no not suffer with lower powered amps with Lou's design and implementation. JMHO
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Today Lou graciously traveled 7 hours south and personally delivered the Zeus to their new home and help set them up. He was kind enough to give some insight on optimizing the room which has inherent challenges. He is a true gentleman. I can say with confidence that contrary to popular belief, these speakers can play well in a smaller room if needed. Given the two part design, they certainly are easy to set up with two people and once set up I had no issue moving them around alone. The footprint is much smaller than I imagine and certainly much smaller than high end speakers by other manufacturers. Lou did mention a concept design that will be even better than the Zeus that I joked should step away form Daedalus tradition and named after the Grateful Dead's The Wall of Sound, designed by the Bear Stanley.
https://enmoreaudio.com/remembering-the-grateful-deads-wall-of-sound-an-absurd-feat-of-technological-engineering/
Lou did take some pictures but the lighting was not appropriate and honestly the cabling is a mess. Immediately after Lou left, my wife interrogated me regarding this very issue, and gave me the ultimatum to dial it in by this weekend as a birthday present to her. I will send him some quality photographs in the coming days.
I have a new dac that will be unlike anything on the market today coming. This does not necessarily mean it is better, just different. I will give a report as things settle out in the coming months. Anyone in the area or visiting is always welcome to listen.
If anyone thinks our hobby is an expensive one, get to know a musician. Instruments of certain flavors gave me perspective. In the right hands, however, well worth it!
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185587)
ZEUS in their new home.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185588)
Showroom ZEUS Maple top/ Ebonized Walnut base(left) next to the new set Baked Maple top / Claro Walnut base.
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Today Lou graciously traveled 7 hours south and personally delivered the Zeus to their new home and help set them up. He was kind enough to give some insight on optimizing the room which has inherent challenges. He is a true gentleman. I can say with confidence that contrary to popular belief, these speakers can play well in a smaller room if needed. Given the two part design, they certainly are easy to set up with two people and once set up I had no issue moving them around alone. The footprint is much smaller than I imagine and certainly much smaller than high end speakers by other manufacturers. Lou did mention a concept design that will be even better than the Zeus that I joked should step away form Daedalus tradition and named after the Grateful Dead's The Wall of Sound, designed by the Bear Stanley.
https://enmoreaudio.com/remembering-the-grateful-deads-wall-of-sound-an-absurd-feat-of-technological-engineering/
Lou did take some pictures but the lighting was not appropriate and honestly the cabling is a mess. Immediately after Lou left, my wife interrogated me regarding this very issue, and gave me the ultimatum to dial it in by this weekend as a birthday present to her. I will send him some quality photographs in the coming days.
I have a new dac that will be unlike anything on the market today coming. This does not necessarily mean it is better, just different. I will give a report as things settle out in the coming months. Anyone in the area or visiting is always welcome to listen.
If anyone thinks our hobby is an expensive one, get to know a musician. Instruments of certain flavors gave me perspective. In the right hands, however, well worth it!
Interesting you send a link about Wall of Sound , David Gans is interviewing John Curl at the San Francisco society event ( i do own JC Parasound HINT now sitting in the garage !)this coming October the 20th , I will probably be attending that function https://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociety.com/events/ I believe it was John Curl who" built the Wall of Sound but the concept was Owsley Bear Stanley's,.
Any way congratulations ! I might be visiting Lou next Feb./ March , may be I will stop by your place if i am welcome to check out your incredible system will be PM you for your whereabouts now what DAC are we talking about ? :thumb:
Asghar
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Ketchum and A_shah,
Thanks for the blog post link and the heads up on the upcoming John Curl interview!
I just finished Bears biography. Pretty good. Filled in some gaps, told a few good stories and lots of little interesting tid-bits.
I’m sure John Curl may have ‘built’ the Wall of Sound, just like the rest of the crew did with their blood sweat and tears, but I think he’d be below Dan Healy, the guys of Alembic and of course Bear, when it comes to credited. I’ll be interested to find out what, if any part of it was his, other than being there and on the crew. He certainly went on to do great things. I’m just not sure where he sits in the pecking order of credit for the Wall of Sound. If he is, he’s been left out of all the accounts I’ve read.
And oh my goodness, that baked maple is gorgeous on the Zeus!! And I can only imagine what a bigger and better system to the Zeus would be!
Jason
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Finish is off the charts. One of the best cabinets in the Biz IMO.
charles
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I have a new dac that will be unlike anything on the market today coming. This does not necessarily mean it is better, just different. I will give a report as things settle out in the coming months. Anyone in the area or visiting is always welcome to listen.
These look amazing, true work of functional art. Where in PDX are you? I'm in Lake Oswego. I might have to take you up on your offer. Curious about the DAC you mentioned. Any more details?
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abd1 - PM sent.
Update: it takes so little to drives these speakers!!!! my amps are 60 watt 300b x4, monoblocks.
We have been playing them at almost background levels since entire family is focus on academics. I am impressed the clarity, imaging and soundstage that exists at even the lowest level. Base is very tight, on a level that honestly have not experienced before. Despite their size, compared to the 11's there is only one extra 10" driver. I am quite certain they will sound splendid in a smaller room.
The greatest synergistic benefit to these speakers is the preamp. It is a new design: OTL/OCL Allnic L10,000 linestage that uses 4 x 300B’s. The greater sonic influence in tube selection is from the 12AU7. I will be rolling these latter tubes.
I will work with lighting and get some pictures. Even though the windows are south facing, I have thick Doug Firs and Maples trees out back and lighting is limited for the AM. That said Rain starts Tuesday and will clear in June, I kid you not.
My recommendations to new Daedalus owners, maybe it is best to have the speakers face each other, run a capacitor amp 24/7 with classical music and wrap in quilts for a few weeks. This break in process is going to be long.....
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So, what do these speaker cost?
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So, what do these speaker cost?
the ZEUS are $33,500 base price.
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Update: it takes so little to drives these speakers!!!! my amps are 60 watt 300b x4, monoblocks.
My recommendations to new Daedalus owners, maybe it is best to have the speakers face each other, run a capacitor amp 24/7 with classical music and wrap in quilts for a few weeks. This break in process is going to be long.....
Absolutely do not do the facing speaker / quilt scenario.
Someone I know took that advice and damaged their speakers
Leave your speakers in optimal location
Enjoy hearing the break in evolve
If you are home - for some further break in Hook up a cheap tuner - play in 8 hour sessions - not 24/7
Things will break in properly in due time
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John took some pictures of his new speakers and they are great shots!
Thank you!
ZEUS made of Figured Baked Maple and Claro Walnut.
:thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185978)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185979)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185980)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185981)
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We will be showing the ZEUS at CAF with Lampizator, LTA amps and WyWires in the Randolph Room.
In Room 516 we will show the Apollo with Lampizator, Wells Audio amps and WyWires.
It's a great show, come visit!
:popcorn:
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Beautiful, Lou! Can't wait to hear them and the Apollo's at CAF. Should be a great show!!
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The Zeus sounded the best I have heard in any shows. The room was big enough and treated well enough to let the speakers breath without discernable room mode issues. There was twinkle on top that I haven't heard in Zeus before. Always rich and organic in sound as well as looks, I always thought the highs were a little rolled off but not this time. Lou says new driver mounting plates, crossover adjustments and other proprietary secret sauces made the difference. Whatever, the combo (the electronics and the cables) in this room was singing.
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The Zeus sounded the best I have heard in any shows. The room was big enough and treated well enough to let the speakers breath without discernable room mode issues. There was twinkle on top that I haven't heard in Zeus before. Always rich and organic in sound as well as looks, I always thought the highs were a little rolled off but not this time. Lou says new driver mounting plates, crossover adjustments and other proprietary secret sauces made the difference. Whatever, the combo (the electronics and the cables) in this room was singing.
Thanks! There have been many improvements the last year, some subtle some more dramatic. Besides the ones you mention we also use a new, much improved Eton tweeter, that has better extension, dispersion and speed etc.
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I wanted to post some useful information here that I believe applies to all Daedalus owners and my even be somewhat of a surprise to Lou.
I replaced my Single Stage 60 watt 300b, 100 KOhm monoblock amplifier with a 7.5 watt PX25 tube amplifier and can not be any happier. So far no trade off's noted. Low wattage amplfiers work well for the Zeus!!!
The Allnic 311's have been produced for a while. The new version is not on their website - with the interstage transformer - which isolates the first gain power pentode-triode e810f tube from the signal path making the amps DEAD SILENT. I place my ear to my 99 dB efficient speakers - silence.
These amps at 7.5 Watts, single stage, no capacitor and of a very simple design have no issue driving 99 dB Daedalus Zeus speakers. So the entire Daedalus product line will be driven well by these amps. This leads me to believe the reason why my A6000 tubes have lasted 7 years of significant use is likely they have not been driven hard. There has not been much time in the amps yet so I will limited my impressions to: Increased clarity along the frequency spectrum. No compression at the higher frequencies. Some loss at the low end but the amps are again new. This, I anticipate will open up over the next month.
The A6000's 60 Watts 100 KOhm impedance will drive any speaker without issue regardless of their rated efficiency. Pretty complex point-to-point wiring. They are still produced, but with hesitation due to the complexity and time (read hands on labor) to build. However, where the new amps shine could result from a lack of the parallel circuits that give the wattage the A6000's are known for.
That said, if you have highly efficient speakers 97 dB or better and listen to your music at non-ear damaging levels, go with the 311's. Invest the cost savings into some rare U52 rectifier tubes and PX25 tubes. They do not need to be matched pairs. Few are required. There is not biasing in this amp. If a tube blows, the meter direction tells you which one is bad. The circuitry is super simple. One fuse (not 5 fuses seen in the A6000), No capacitors or parallel circuits. This applies to ALL Daedalus speakers.
The circuit design and transformer design allows for stable topography and increase current through the tubes from 6 watt to 7.5 watts without predicted increase in tube wear.
If you are looking for an amp to pair with your speakers, regardless of the model, I would give these an audition.
The size of the Zeus is deceptive. It takes very little to drive them and running low wattage does NOT affect responsiveness and limit the dynamic range.
From the designer: KS Park:
"For PX-25 and A-6000, they are real single-ended, (one vs.four tubes), but there are two differences, first A-6000 is plate choke transformer drive (which need coupling capacitor) and PX-25 is a true interstage transformer coupled which is the most difficult method (no need of coupling capacitor).
In comparison, A-6000 has -6dB feedback for bass driving factor (Damping factor). Without feedback its bass is very poor, although -6dB is very slight and natural feedback, it is not good to have negative-feedback. PX-25 is real Non negative feedback, but bass is excellent naturally. A-6000 is better on very high frequency (because of feedback), it is so complicate and delicate. PX-25 is the most basic and authentic triode single-ended, only unique in the world, only Allnic can make this amp."
If anyone has any reservations regarding the Zeus, please PM for further discussion.
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Love the picture of those crossovers Lou. Work of art in themselves. Of course the cabin gets always have been. Hope all is going well.
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It has been 3 months since I posted on this thread but I wanted to update Daedalus followers regarding amplification.
I sold off my SET parallel 300b circuit 60 watt amplifier for a single stage 7.5 watt simple circuit amplifier. This 7.5 watt amplifier drives the Zeus without issue! Ever for high dynamic range streaming movies the bass is tight, visceral and without distortion.
Interestingly on a recent 6Moons review, this amplifier was negatively criticized and the reviewers findings were drastically different. However his speakers were 92-93dB efficient, as I recall. Zeus are 99 dB.
John.
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It has been 3 months since I posted on this thread but I wanted to update Daedalus followers regarding amplification.
I sold off my SET parallel 300b circuit 60 watt amplifier for a single stage 7.5 watt simple circuit amplifier. This 7.5 watt amplifier drives the Zeus without issue! Ever for high dynamic range streaming movies the bass is tight, visceral and without distortion.
Interestingly on a recent 6Moons review, this amplifier was negatively criticized and the reviewers findings were drastically different. However his speakers were 92-93dB efficient, as I recall. Zeus are 99 dB.
John.
Thanks John, For the record getting a speaker to really play well with others requires more than just high sensitivity. An extremely flat impedance curve is almost as important. I have heard some speakers that are about 90db sound great with low power amps, but they presented a very flat impedance load to the amplifier. Our systems do both, and that is why they do so well with any quality amp. The impedance is better than +/- 1.5 ohms above 100 hz. Many systems out there have as much as a 12ohm range above 100hz and even at high sensitivity that type of load does not do well with amplifiers.
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ketcham, would you be agreeable to stating , either in this post or via pm, which 7.5 watt amp you are now driving the Zeus with. I have Argos V2s and have been considering trying either a 300b or 2A3 amp . I current rotate driving the Argos with either a Line Magnetic 518IA 22wpc 845 Set, Finale Audio 7189 MK2 22wpc EL84M/7189A , or Modwright LS100/KWA100SE combo. Thanks
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https://www.audioshark.org/allnic-175/new-product-6-watt-px25-tube-monoblocks-15501.html
There is a thread I started here that will give you information. I run Osram PX25 valve circ 1937. and Osram U52 Rectifier.
These amps are dead silent. Ear to speaker...silent.
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/allnic4/
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Thank you ketcham
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https://www.audioshark.org/allnic-175/new-product-6-watt-px25-tube-monoblocks-15501.html
There is a thread I started here that will give you information. I run Osram PX25 valve circ 1937. and Osram U52 Rectifier.
These amps are dead silent. Ear to speaker...silent.
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/allnic4/
John ,
thanks for the link to 6moons review , it was an interesting read
Asghar
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It has been some time since I posted anything regarding Daedalus.
Having now listened to many types of speaker design, I have found nothing on the market that compares to Lou's speakers. After some adjustments in my system, I am confident that his speakers perform splendidly with low wattage amplifiers. To my taste, read SUBJECTIVE interpretation, SET amplifiers provide better micro detail without sacrificing dynamics. Source implementation and preamp are also pivotal. However, when given a 'proper' signal these speakers are without limits.
Importing and exporting electronics and even international freight remains at its easiest historically, I encourage anyone worldwide to give Daedalus strong consideration. The price to value, especially of this quality is quite possibly unbeatable.
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I know you run the Allnic Amps, what is the rest of your system? I have an Allnic H3000, has me itching to get an Allnic Preamp.
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Thanks for checking in.....was wondering how you were enjoying the big boys! Over a year now with my Apollo's and the honeymoon goes on, and on, and on.............
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The presentation is the sum of all parts and I finally am getting some genuine magic from my system. One challenge is that my system exists in the main living space of the house so there lay certain functional limitations. Lou, however, was kind enough to visit traveling through town and gave me more insight.
I would say the Zeus are very easy to handle, pack and position. They would perform fine in a room with 9' or greater ceilings. The 11's are likely the sweet spot for value and performance. My wife prefers the 11's by a wide margin from an aesthetic standpoint. The Zeus project predated her, so they were grandfathered into the relationship. :thumb: